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Thread: The Typing Process

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenryrr View Post
    @thePirate
    If you are going to block me on tinychat so that you don't have to interact with me, it's probably best you don't interact with me here either. Make a decision.
    I know you are so highly convinced I am SEI, but I'm not a dynamic type. I'm extremely static. And I'm not Fe valuing. If you have an issue with my self-typing, that's fine, but you've beaten it to a pulp and I've considered it, but decided it isn't the best typing for me. I don't constantly go out of my way to try to convince you that you aren't SEE. So at least return the favor, please.
    Also, I talked to @Ashton about it and he verified that he had similar experiences with Ti egos.
    Okay, to be fair, I've seen you use that example a few times already and each time it gets more and more confusing. You may want to start fresh, because I don't think it's clear what you are talking about anymore. It's hard to pin down what you mentioned to certain functions, or types for that matter. I know you bring it up as an example of a Ti ego doing something (or not doing something), but I don't know what it is. Is there a communication issue between you and Ti egos, is that what you are saying? Maybe I'm getting the wrong idea here, but it's probably not an issue of a valued/non-valued thinking function(s), like you seem to be alluding to, and your example doesn't exactly address any of that either from what I can tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    Okay, to be fair, I've seen you use that example a few times already and each time it gets more and more confusing. You may want to start fresh, because I don't think it's clear what you are talking about anymore. It's hard to pin down what you mentioned to certain functions, or types for that matter. I know you bring it up as an example of a Ti ego doing something (or not doing something), but I don't know what it is. Is there a communication issue between you and Ti egos, is that what you are saying? Maybe I'm getting the wrong idea here, but it's probably not an issue of a valued/non-valued thinking function(s), like you seem to be alluding to, and your example doesn't exactly address any of that either from what I can tell.
    I've actually never used that example before because it just happened a few days ago. Yes, I am saying there seems to be some sort of communication issue. I'm not sure how to clarify beyond that.
    I think my example is indicative of something. It was more of a rant of frustration than anything. I noted beneath it that it's probably not type related. I'm not sure what you are looking for me to do or say here. All you've done is tell me it's not what I think it is. Tell me what you think it is then, please.
    If you're going to say I'm wrong, provide an alternative please. Simply telling me I'm wrong won't help anything. Wait, this is exactly the communication issue I demonstrated in my example.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Quote Originally Posted by fenryrr View Post
    I've actually never used that example before because it just happened a few days ago. Yes, I am saying there seems to be some sort of communication issue. I'm not sure how to clarify beyond that.
    I think my example is indicative of something. It was more of a rant of frustration than anything. I noted beneath it that it's probably not type related. I'm not sure what you are looking for me to do or say here. All you've done is tell me it's not what I think it is. Tell me what you think it is then, please.
    If you're going to say I'm wrong, provide an alternative please. Simply telling me I'm wrong won't help anything. Wait, this is exactly the communication issue I demonstrated in my example.
    If you say that you have a communication issue with Ti egos, who am I to say that you are wrong?

    You have said more than enough, I'm convinced. I thought there was more to it than that, which is why I asked.

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    @Ryan I think its important to consider that those with Ti super-egos are resistant to the Ti 'discursive' information format. They tend to see a lot of value in Te, which tends to like bullet points, lists, objectives and outcomes.

    They really value conciseness and directness when dealing with information, the information needs to be managed so they only need choose a decision from a sweetshop where the individual sweets contents are very clearly labelled.

    They also need a lot of help when being asked to engage in 'Ti' activities. It seems very stressful for them to engage in a very complex evaluation. They need a source of Ti that can deliver the information to them in Te packets to help them out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    @Ryan I think its important to consider that those with Ti super-egos are resistant to the Ti 'discursive' information format. They tend to see a lot of value in Te, which tends to like bullet points, lists, objectives and outcomes.

    They really value conciseness and directness when dealing with information, the information needs to be managed so they only need choose a decision from a sweetshop where the individual sweets contents are very clearly labelled.

    They also need a lot of help when being asked to engage in 'Ti' activities. It seems very stressful for them to engage in a very complex evaluation. They need a source of Ti that can deliver the information to them in Te packets to help them out.
    Stop making ridiculous generalizations using nothing but socionics terms. Te is not "bullet points;" Ti is not always overly complex. You are using the kind of behavioral reductionism that MBTI practicioners fall prey to. Please stop and learn this theory, instead of pretending to know.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Stop making ridiculous generalizations using nothing but socionics terms.
    It's a socionics forum gilly...

    Here is a reference for you: http://en.socionics.ru/index.php?opt...251&Itemid=139


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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    @Ryan I think its important to consider that those with Ti super-egos are resistant to the Ti 'discursive' information format. They tend to see a lot of value in Te, which tends to like bullet points, lists, objectives and outcomes.

    They really value conciseness and directness when dealing with information, the information needs to be managed so they only need choose a decision from a sweetshop where the individual sweets contents are very clearly labelled.
    I don't think that's the case.

    : )

    I seem to be the only one reading Stratievskaya's descriptions, which is a shame.

    What do you think of the bolded?

    Block ID * 8 position demonstrative * feature * "The logic of relations"

    Balzac in any situation, trying to look objective. It's his money, he will gladly demonstrate.

    But in the interests of "absolute objectivity", it often ends up in an awkward position: thinking about the absolute validity of their actions, often overlook their ethical dimension - "fair to whom?"

    In any dispute Balzac keeps demonstrative neutrality, trying to nobody "play along." Their attitude to any misconduct, he expressed not as a private, personal opinion, but as it exposes some, as it seems, objective and correct evaluation. Balzac loves to put himself in the position of a judge It is characterized not just a voice, but it is "passing judgment" on each issue (even if it is only offered to discuss the subject.)

    Balzac's reasoning is precise, concise and profound understanding of the essence of things. The ease and simplicity of his sayings shock and delight. Fall within the middle-thoughtful mood - a huge "intellectual pleasure." It is always a wealth of material for reflection. This saying, which wants to absorb and utter as their own. When you listen to the arguments of Balzac, one might desire to go after him "with parchment" and record every word.

    Balzac prefers not to clutter your mind with encyclopedic information, and even among the representatives of this type there is a huge amount of very erudite people, Balzac primarily affects the depth of his knowledge.

    Balzac loves and knows how to learn, trying to get new information consistently and gradually so that it does not go far beyond the scope of his observations: first of all he is interested in is the relationship between the study of phenomena.

    Accepting new information, Balzac immediately tries to link it to an existing body of knowledge. Information that contradicts the established system and destroys them, takes very critical.

    Balzac unusual blind worship of authority. Referring to someone, he supports his statement accurate and relevant quote, always explaining how it relates to his arguments.

    Balzac often supports his reasoning instructive parable. Sometimes, instead of the arguments presented to the parable, so that the listener can only guess to what it was told. In fact Balzacs often "hide behind" the talk of trying to argue that poorly to their understanding, for example, the aspect of emotion ethics or ethics of relations.

    Balzac sees no crime to talk about everything at once. He is ready to pick up any topic, freely switching from one to another. This is not because he found it difficult to focus on one thing - it's natural dynamics of his intellect, subconsciously tuned to a weak feature on a similar aspect in his Douala Caesar, who unwittingly jumps from one subject to another. Balzac each new theme woven into the general course of his reasoning, so that the integrity of the logical connection is not broken.
    Block superego. 4th position: mobilization function - "The logic of relations"

    Caesar's hard to be objective, because it is a captive of his ethical attitudes, their likes and dislikes.

    His actions may be contrary to common sense, if only because that often they reflect his emotional attitude.

    Sometimes the behavior of Caesar as a logical shift the significance of his actions, that is, it goes against common sense, based on some logical primitive stereotypes because "so decided to do." Moreover, in accordance with its logical stereotypes, it often comes at the expense of its ethical principles, for example, destroys a good relationship with your family because reacts as logically accepted, general concepts, and not, as he feels it is ethically: for example, blamed for something for which it is necessary (in the conventional, stereotypical) to scold, praise for what should be praised.

    Sometimes this is expressed in the habit of using the surface logical (and ethical) stereotypes, to act in accordance with these slogans and utter them with or without cause, "pity humiliates man," "fear - the distinguished," "jealous - it means love," " where the bed, and sleep there, "" a woman should not take the initiative, "etc.

    Sometimes it is a logical offset intonation and emphasis in speech. Sometimes it is ethically unjustifiable mimicry.

    Sometimes it is biased or unstable interests to perceived information. For example: listening to the explanation, Caesar often distracted from the main idea, it suddenly takes an interest in some very minor or inconsequential moments particular. Without realizing it, he goes away from the main topic or distracting questions secondary importance. Or issues that are not relevant to the subject under discussion.

    Another characteristic of the representatives of this type feature: the ability for the occasion and without distractions from the given topic to talk about themselves. (A clear example - Pushkin's lyrical digressions in "Eugene Onegin".)

    Deal with the classification of concepts and knowledge, to bring them into a coherent system - for Caesar dull and dreary work. He finds it difficult to focus on the logical analysis of a phenomenon, it is difficult to concentrate for consistent understanding of logical conclusions, it is difficult to present something very consistent: it can begin the explanation right in the middle and keep it constantly going back to the early and middle stages. Thus, in the statement of Caesar even some simple explanations seem very confusing.

    Superficial understanding of many phenomena it does not bother - he considers it natural ("We all learned a little something and somehow") The main thing that has been the subject of discussion even remotely, but the sign, you can not give the impression of complete incompetence.

    Very cautious in his statements concerning the legal or technical side of things, no risk of sounding biased or incompetent

    He does not like to study the instructions and rules - it's boring. (Representative of this type can often burn through the appliance, including, without reading the instructions known case of "unsuccessful" purge memory, after which were worn all built into a program) and no matter how sad his personal experience, it is still difficult to change Caesar himself, and he often relies not on the user, which is rare and little understood, and for good luck, good luck on your intuition, despite the fact that she did quite often fails.

    Experience of other people's mistakes do not always produce enough impression on him as much as Caesar may confer and consult, but eventually go their own way, in spite of all the advice and common sense. Caesar has an exceptional ability to continuously "fill bumps" on one and the same place. Deeply afflicted, tormented and ask everyone, why is it every time it happens to him, and what deficiencies he needed to rid himself to finally end this scourge requires huge patience and endurance (qualities inherent in his dual Balzac) to teach Caesar analyze the experience of past mistakes, that is exactly what Caesar, against the wishes of others, refuses to do (and do not ask and do not persuade!) He acted and acts just as he pleases, but otherwise it just can not be yourself.

    For Caesar serious problem need to think carefully about their actions, act cautiously and judiciously. Comments irrationality of their actions, he can not stand requirement to be consistent in their actions leads him out of himself. It is characterized by smart and logical to do only so long as it is not required to, as long as he is respected and considered him. But it is necessary to focus on its illogical as his actions immediately cease logically controlled and acquire the character of a disorderly, panicky rush.

    Caesar's illogical accusations only exacerbate their problems. Caesar himself painfully tolerate any criticism, and since the requirements to itself it can be quite ambitious, it is difficult to recognize the presence of all of the advantages, such defects as faulty logic. Caesar even want to be a man without flaws. (And who would not like it?) Why Caesar was very upset when his mental faculties give a low estimate. It very difficult to afford to be the smartest (though it's best that he can do for himself.)

    Note that Caesar's easier to be consistent and logical in his actions after he figured out the possibilities of the situation (the sequence of functions). For Caesar to behave reasonably - it is to act wisely, that is, as a precaution, foresight. Thoroughly than he will be informed on the aspect of "intuition of possibilities", the easier it is to act logically thought out.

    In short, in order to in the actions of Caesar was less controversy and fuss, you need to put it in a psychological mode in which it will receive sufficient information on intuition capabilities, support for the intuition of time and, most importantly, the lack of criticism of the logic aspect ratios . That is Caesar need psychological support Balzac. His ability to show prospects the situation in such a way that they are not scared of Caesar and plunged into panic, the possibility of lead time to distract him from the bustle and create the conditions for his thorough logical analysis. Balzac was able to find the most simple and easy understanding of the form explaining. He is very methodical in his explanations, can illustrate their good examples. Is able to bring the interlocutor to the correct logical conclusion, giving himself to enjoy his discoveries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    @Ryan They also need a lot of help when being asked to engage in 'Ti' activities. It seems very stressful for them to engage in a very complex evaluation. They need a source of Ti that can deliver the information to them in Te packets to help them out.
    That could be said about most ethicals though, no? I do partially agree with what you are saying here.

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    Jim vs Ryan

    This is going nowhere slow
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    I don't think that's the case.

    I seem to be the only one reading Stratievskaya's descriptions, which is a shame.

    What do you think of the bolded?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    That could be said about most ethicals though, no? I do partially agree with what you are saying here.
    Good links, I haven't really had the time to read these in full.

    I think it is good to compare the Fe/Te PoLRs and the Ti/Fi PoLRs; they should behave in a similar way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post

    What everyone else lives with is that ideas have varying merit:
    Se/Si PoLR doesnt engage when a solution lacks elegance or sentimental value.
    Ti/Te PoLR either goes on a highly logical tirade in case of Te without reference to others views or empirical evidence whereas Ti PoLR tends to throw hands in the air and refuses to engage, Ti PoLR is often viewed as a lack of willpower.
    Ni PoLR doesnt see any value in comparing the likeness between ideas, often viewing this as a nasty trick.
    Fe PoLR reacts against social force and refuses to comply with external ethics.
    Fi PoLR doesnt see any need to self regulate through ethixs and will happily take opportunity where it is found.

    Of course these are very extreme examples.
    "Ti PoLR is often viewed as a lack of willpower."
    Since when?
    Where? By who all?
    So according to you, SeFi (half of all Ti polrs) are "often viewed" as lacking willpower? Where? Since when? And by whom?
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    "Ti PoLR is often viewed as a lack of willpower."
    Since when?
    Where? By who all?
    So according to you, SeFi (half of all Ti polrs) are "often viewed" as lacking willpower? Where? Since when? And by whom?
    By me now.

    This where you tell me that IEEs:
    Never spuriously generate plans they dont follow through with.
    Never use anecdotes to describe systems which only describe a facet.
    Never start with a very detailed explanation which quickly ebbs to general description before stopping

    Otherwise opinions are like orgasms, usually only mine are important to me. Im flattered you view my opinions as being important to you annedelise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Nice stereotyponics there.
    Socionics is an art of fitting people to 16 broad stereotypes.

    A world-view shattering revelation, to be sure.

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    rar
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Fe POLR is an IXTp feeling as if their inner core has been vandalized, causing them to shut down into a further expressionless state, protecting their Fi-HA core. Fi-HA, on the other hand, opens up an accepted state in which feelings can be expressed with acceptance. Fi creatives are adept at producing this sort of state simply by existing. This is what gets the seemingly untrusting IXTps to engage the world and others. They have great difficulty in generating this sort of relation on their own, and when they force themself to do so, it is often either scripted or in a known group atmosphere, where the rules can be studied. Fe dominants disrupt this state by their methods of both subjective discovery and self-emotive behaviors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    That’s a rather primitive and epistemically inappropriate operationalization of typology.
    Well, Jungian typology is in essence 3 stereotypes systemised (2 types right?)

    Logics vs Ethics
    Intuition vs Sensing
    Intro vs Extraversion

    You understand that.

    Unfortunately hexadecatype (16 types) isnt a word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    A psychological type—esp. in the Jungian sense—isn’t the same as a stereotype. Conceiving of types in this way is a dismally vulgar abstraction, amounting to little more than a kind of degenerate Platonism reified into real-life.

    Reducing typology to stereotyping might as well be considered the point at which brains begin to die from personality type theories. If you’re merely dislocating individuals into inflexible behavioral molds called 'types', then you’re probably not thinking nor perceiving reality with much acuity.
    One can argue the opposite with equal vigour, if you don't believe you aren't taking a complex individual to a much simpler construct 'socionics' and actually believe socionics is more than an abstraction then you should question your understanding of the ideas and theory. I am in part surprised that you are suggesting socionics is more than it is: it can elude to a deeper hypothesis, but strictly it cannot describe more than what it has been designed to.

    Regardless it is important that the common reference is that socionics is an invented relational system based upon archetypes which does not satifactorily describe any individual. Of course the range of utility this system is a problem for the individual following it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    ANGER Actually, you’re not going to argue a goddamn thing about this

    ARGUMENT ARGUMENT ARGUMENT
    I'll do what I want, Sir Ashton.

    I believe I've already eluded to the idea that your opinion is not that important to me and neither is mine to you.

    Was that not the response you were looking for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenryrr View Post
    I think this explains my frustration with Ti well. It's too vague. Which thing goes where. Please actually explain this instead of leaving it super open-ended like you expect me to magically read your mind. Pronouns are my enemies. Cooking with my ILE friend is literally one of the most stressful things. I might as well just let him cook cause if I cook he will criticize what I'm doing, but then not clearly explain what I need to do instead. GAH. He always asserts he knows the right way to do things, but I don't trust him because he doesn't even explain his reasoning behind things..just proposes them as truths, when I'd actually like to know what's behind why he thinks certain things. Mister, I know how to cook Tuna Helper. No, it doesn't need to cook longer. I followed the cooking time, and even went over like a minute. Why don't you actually bite one of the noodles to test if it's done instead of just assuming it isn't done. It's gonna turn to mush if I cook it more. HFKGAJLGAajlvha
    Totally! Also what sucks are ambiguous sentences/paragraphs that are a result of said pronouns - "this goes here! this goes there! this does this instead of this"

    Then there's that whole notion of "doing something right" being equal to "mindlessly following some text" while being oblivious to the real world that actually exists

    Quote Originally Posted by fenryrr View Post
    I've actually never used that example before because it just happened a few days ago. Yes, I am saying there seems to be some sort of communication issue. I'm not sure how to clarify beyond that.
    I think my example is indicative of something. It was more of a rant of frustration than anything. I noted beneath it that it's probably not type related.
    I ran into this heaviest in Ti Creatives, moreso with ILEs than SLEs. With the latter, I can kinda guess what's going on. With the former, I get the impression they're playing some kinda sick fucking condescending game with me and I just want to get some straight answers and not dick around.

    Quote Originally Posted by fenryrr View Post
    I'm not sure what you are looking for me to do or say here. All you've done is tell me it's not what I think it is. Tell me what you think it is then, please.
    If you're going to say I'm wrong, provide an alternative please. Simply telling me I'm wrong won't help anything. Wait, this is exactly the communication issue I demonstrated in my example.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Anger…? Who’s angry?
    You are angry Ashton. That's why you can't stop spilling out the bile.

    This is also why you haven't understood that I agree with the logic behind the position, but simply take a much harsher interpretation regarding the limitations of the ideas of analytical psychology.

    Looks like a spade, acts like a spade, might as well be a spade.

    My opinion is that once you tear the walls of 'how nice' socionics appears you will always come back to the 'core' of what Augusta saw socionics as being:

    The name "socionics" is derived from the word "society", because Augustinavičiūtė believed that each personality type has a distinct purpose in society, which can be described and explained by socionics.
    Sounds like stereotyping to me.

    Stereotyping on it's own merit is not so bad, it's simply catagorisation by difference, the prejudice that follows becomes the troubling consequence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    By me now.
    Then your descriptions weren't talking about socionics' typology system. They were talking about your own personal system, which apparently is completely unrelated to socionics.

    See, in Socionics, Se polr types are the ones that are 'often viewed' by many socionists, russian and english, as being the types with low willpower. Since Se, not your 'Ti', is the socionics element that is 'often described' as being related to willpower.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Uh, how can you agree with that essay and then immediately fallback on some RARARARAR platitude extolling the virtues of concretistic stereotyping.
    I agree that is a potential interpretation of the value of socionics; but people will value the same idea differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Since when does Socionics appear nice?
    It appears nice to those who overvalue it. Consider me a pragmatic cynic.

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    Then your descriptions weren't talking about socionics' typology system. They were talking about your own personal system, which apparently is completely unrelated to socionics.

    See, in Socionics, Se polr types are the ones that are 'often viewed' by many socionists, russian and english, as being the types with low willpower. Since Se, not your 'Ti', is the socionics element that is 'often described' as being related to willpower.
    Where's the references here Anndelise? I thought considering your earlier demand that everyone acheive consensus that you would be overflowing with useful and relevant references. Infact, considering your criteria for relevance I would have hoped for you to provide the minutes from a 2 week long socionics conference on the nature of Se and Ti relations. Indeed, I would have expected you to organise and pay for said conference. But you didn't. How surprising!

    Therefore, I ask you the same question you asked me: by whom, when and where?

    It is fairly obvious that Se relates to exterting oneself upon the environment, not on focus on logical follow through. Of course, you understand that well as a sentimentalist, shouldn't you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Good links, I haven't really had the time to read these in full.

    I think it is good to compare the Fe/Te PoLRs and the Ti/Fi PoLRs; they should behave in a similar way.
    They should? They actually don't. Model A doesn't define the elements, just the blocks (Ego, Super-ego, etc.) and some other minor stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Are you really interpreting anger in my words because I used the terms “dumb cliché”?
    It is the first bastion of anger to attempt to override the opinions of others by labelling them unneccessary. You know this well Ashton. I'm actually wondering if you are reading any of the text at all. It's all perfectly moderate and reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Being cynical about Socionics is fine, you’re not going to see me being an apologist for the theory. But it’s worth pointing out—as anndelise, Gilly, and others have done—that your mind has apparently been corrupted by MBTI, as well as some of your own assorted personal prejudices, to the extent that you’re not making appropriate conceptual delineations between Socionics typology vs. MBTI typology… indeed, it’s questionable whether whatever your mind has spawned from this conflationary mess of variegated typological constructs you festoon about, is even an operative typology at all.
    I do think there should be one system, I don't care what it is, but the differences between two systems which conveniently reference the same source are most often moot and are often derived by erroneous translation as opposed to rational conclusion from the underlying source material - Psychological Types.

    You should note that there are a few practicing socionists who share the same viewpoint as myself, this includes Olga. Others believe the IJ/IP switch is an issue but not that the cognitive functions have an alternative description e.g. Vlad and I am sure there are others you can point to who share your opinion. That isn't much of a consensus at all.

    Therefore you are only drawing upon your opinion, which really isn't my problem Ashton; but you are mistaken if you think you have sufficient evidence to believe that this forum, with its 15 or so actively posting socionics laymen has anything resembling a suitable consensus or the rational wherewithal to support your statement above.

    You will note I didn't have to use any flowery language at all.

    I also note that you have engaged in an argument on my grounds after demanding that I should not argue with you. This is a sign that the process appears to be out of your control Ashton.

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    Hmm, looks like you're both Ti dominants Jim and Ryan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    They should? They actually don't. Model A doesn't define the elements, just the blocks (Ego, Super-ego, etc.) and some other minor stuff.
    I always thought that it defers to the information metabolism as the source definition of the information elements? If this is the case then that which is true of the information elements should be applicable to Model A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I always thought that it defers to the information metabolism as the source definition of the information elements? If this is the case then that which is true of the information elements should be applicable to Model A.
    It seems like you are moving too many pieces around at once and kind of coming at the phenomenon of temperaments in a roundabout way, re: Ti/Fi PoLRs seeming similar.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    It seems like you are moving too many pieces around at once and kind of coming at the phenomenon of temperaments in a roundabout way, re: Ti/Fi PoLRs seeming similar.
    This could be very true and a valid criticism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Where's the references here Anndelise? I thought considering your earlier demand that everyone acheive consensus that you would be overflowing with useful and relevant references. Infact, considering your criteria for relevance I would have hoped for you to provide the minutes from a 2 week long socionics conference on the nature of Se and Ti relations. Indeed, I would have expected you to organise and pay for said conference. But you didn't. How surprising!

    Therefore, I ask you the same question you asked me: by whom, when and where?

    It is fairly obvious that Se relates to exterting oneself upon the environment, not on focus on logical follow through. Of course, you understand that well as a sentimentalist, shouldn't you?
    The following are just a few examples that show that Se is the Socionics element that is 'often viewed' as relating to willpower.

    from http://en.socionics.ru/index.php?opt...254&Itemid=137
    Will Sensorics (F)
    Possession – wish, ownership, to defend, alignment of forces, striving, sphere of influence, tactics, territory, ability to take the area, feeling of being a master, expansion, “I want”.
    External qualities – looks, contrast, beauty, form, colour, brightness.
    Mass – many, gathering, crowd.
    Manifestation of will qualities – readiness to use one’s energy, to reach (to get), goal achievement, to conquer, to make smb. do smth., to give orders, leadership, complete readiness to action, to suppress, to subdue, decisiveness, to assault.
    Force – weight, ponderability, power, will to win, pressure, violence, repulse, will-power, resistance, confidence, physical strength.
    Status – authority, ambitions, standing, importance.
    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socionics
    Se is responsible for the perception, control, defense, and acquisition of space, territory, and control. It observes outward appearances, estimates whether forces are in alignment or conflict, and uses strength of will and power-based methods to achieve purposes. Se understands territory and physical aggression. It is also the function of contact and apprehension of qualia.
    From http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...ation_elements
    *Se: authority, influence, desire, political interest/personal investment, competition/struggle, willpower, impact, force, appearance, readiness, tactics, territory
    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...verted_sensing
    Unlike Si , which is about one's subjective sensory experience (how intense or enjoyable it is), Se is about achieving an object of desire. It gives one the ability to influence, bend, and push situations and people in order to achieve such an object, rather than to enjoy the situation one is in.
    regarding Se base (which includes one Ti polr type)
    The individual feels at home among people who are actively doing something and interacting with each other directly (visibly), and is able to organize people, move them around as necessary, and guide them in achieving a specific goal. He or she likes obedience and even subservience in others, since it allows him to "make things happen" more effectively.

    He is keenly aware of territorial conflicts and confrontational behavior occurring around him. He very quickly becomes confrontational when others try to make him move or get him to do something in an aggressive or confrontational way. He quickly recognizes when people are trying to get each other to do something or are trying to organize him for some purpose. He also spontaneously uses aggression to achieve his own goals.

    He wants to make all decisions himself about what he will do, wear, eat, look like, etc., and resents any attempts by others to make these decisions for him. However, he is willing to make use of other peoples' ideas, advice, and creativity, as long as he plays the most visible role.

    He enjoys testing his will in challenging situations and views life as a sort of obstacle course, full of adversity and challenges, that must be weathered and conquered.
    Regarding Se creative
    The individual takes direct action to accomplish his goals and desires in the face of external obstacles, and also the interests of his close friends, family, or associates. This may involve prodding others to take necessary action, deliberately applying pressure in specific situations, or abruptly taking on an organizational role. The individual does not generally seek out confrontation, but he is also not afraid of it.

    He takes his responsibilities seriously and tends to perform them diligently and with care. He expects the same of others.
    Regarding Se role (which includes the other Ti polr type
    The individual tends to criticize himself for being less disciplined and organized than he should be, and typically tries to improve himself in this area, with very limited success. He is almost unable to make himself (or anyone else, for that matter) do things that they do not want to do, and is more likely to abandon a situation where people don't want to do anything rather than figure out how to mobilize or organize them properly.

    Discipline, organization, and mobilization can occur on their own, though, when there is a situation that demands it (as opposed to trying to generate it by oneself). However, he grows increasingly tired and emotionally worn out from having to put up a fight, and begins to look for a different, easier route rather than continue to confront the challenge directly.

    He resents any attempts to "push" him to do things and rejects the idea of people pressuring each other to do things. He himself avoids the use of pressure, preferring instead to entice and inspire. Only severe irritation can make him become forceful and demanding for brief periods of time until he calms down.
    Regarding Se polr
    The individual tends to overreact to aggressive or confrontational behavior, taking it as a personal threat when it may only be a knee-jerk reaction or the result of a bad mood.

    He tends to avoid intruding on others' space or engaging in behavior that may be perceived as coercive, and tries hard to handle his needs by being disciplined and well-prepared himself - rather than relying on others to do things for him. If these strategies fail, his efforts at dealing with the resulting conflict make him look actively pushy in a way that appears awkward and unnatural to others. This opens him up to painful criticism and feelings of weakness and helplessness?

    He is able to moralize and instruct others about what they should do and why, but he is not prepared for others' active resistance or refusal to do as he says. In his mind, this would require him to put aside reason and good feelings and simply make the other person do what is necessary. This is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for him to do.
    ------
    On a personal note, I find it interesting that you conflate Ti and Se together. Especially when I look at the description of Se Creative.
    The individual takes direct action to accomplish his goals and desires in the face of external obstacles, and also the interests of his close friends, family, or associates. This may involve prodding others to take necessary action, deliberately applying pressure in specific situations, or abruptly taking on an organizational role. The individual does not generally seek out confrontation, but he is also not afraid of it.

    He takes his responsibilities seriously and tends to perform them diligently and with care. He expects the same of others.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I always thought that it defers to the information metabolism as the source definition of the information elements? If this is the case then that which is true of the information elements should be applicable to Model A.
    I find that to be incorrect.

    For example, all base functions should behave similarly to a cetain point, right? Or at least have something in common beyond being a base function. Not a chance. If you read the descriptions, you would find that Model A has little or no affect on the elements themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    The following are just a few examples that show that Se is the Socionics element that is 'often viewed' as relating to willpower.

    from http://en.socionics.ru/index.php?opt...254&Itemid=137
    A fair source and comment. I could be misconstruing the willpower responses particularly in Delta-NFs without properly demarcating Se and Ti. Having had a few in depth relations with Delta-NFs I always found this lack of engagement and follow through a remarkable event.

    I think this is also true when considering Ryan's comment above regarding the blocks being tightly tied together being important when considering Model A.

    It is probably also why I have found it generally 'safer' to allow the individual to choose extra or introversion as is comfortable to them. As fenryrr will alude to, I will only decide on that when prodded several times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    I find that to be incorrect.

    For example, all base functions should behave similarly to a cetain point, right? Or at least have something in common beyond being a base function. Not a chance. If you read the descriptions, you would find that Model A has little or no affect on the elements themselves.
    Well, I see a lot of things (I don't have the time to source) discussing the variation given by the block; e.g. ego being 'automatic' rather than 'forced'. There was a thread recently discussing it.

    I don't have enough information or sufficient understanding to decide if this seemingly lacking relation is a problem with either: The idea of 'blocks', the idea of 'elements' or even the idea of cognitive style models. It's true that sometimes I don't see people obeying the blocks and sometimes I don't see them obeying the elements even when their type is well accepted. I can only conclude that the whole socionics idea has limited applicability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    It is probably also why I have found it generally 'safer' to allow the individual to choose extra or introversion as is comfortable to them. As fenryrr will alude to, I will only decide on that when prodded several times.
    I will? Haha.
    I don't remember anything about that. Though my memory is poor in general, so I apologize.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Quote Originally Posted by fenryrr View Post
    I will? Haha.
    I don't remember anything about that. Though my memory is poor in general, so I apologize.
    Ah, no problem, I hope your flu is getting better.

    I think I settled on 'Could be IEE, Could be EII' and after literaly minutes of discussion I'd settle for EII. Of course, the context of the discussion was 'Fenryrr, SEI?' I don't buy that somehow: too many unicorns, very humanitarian aka. sees the best in people, insufficient soup provision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Ah, no problem, I hope your flu is getting better.

    I think I settled on 'Could be IEE, Could be EII' and after literaly minutes of discussion I'd settle for EII. Of course, the context of the discussion was 'Fenryrr, SEI?' I don't buy that somehow: too many unicorns, very humanitarian aka. sees the best in people, insufficient soup provision.
    Thanks. It is, I think.
    Unicorns --> Delta NF? Is it sad that the sorority I almost joined's mascot is a unicorn.
    I decided I couldn't justify paying for friends, so I quit.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Quote Originally Posted by fenryrr View Post
    Thanks. It is, I think.
    Unicorns --> Delta NF? Is it sad that the sorority I almost joined's mascot is a unicorn.
    I decided I couldn't justify paying for friends, so I quit.
    I try not to think of people as sad or cool; but I will say one thing: those sentimental objects your type keeps around their bedroom make relations uncomfortable, somewhat akin to having Porcelain Dolls watching you O_o

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I try not to think of people as sad or cool; but I will say one thing: those sentimental objects your type keeps around their bedroom make relations uncomfortable, somewhat akin to having Porcelain Dolls watching you O_o
    What sentimental things? I got rid of most of them. Dunno where they are.
    I'm more sentimental about experiences. And if I do get sentimental about an object, it's usually something like a leaf or something...tied to some experience. I didn't think leaves were creepy.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Quote Originally Posted by fenryrr View Post
    And if I do get sentimental about an object, it's usually something like a leaf or something...tied to some experience. I didn't think leaves were creepy.
    You'd be surprised! :F

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    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Hmm, looks like you're both Ti dominants Jim and Ryan.
    What is my MBTI type? None of you fuckers have been paying attention.

    I'm going to summon Maritsa if this foolery continues.

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