Torn between two types, very difficult to find answer

[pezzonovante]

Am I an ENTp or an ENTj? This has been bothering me for a while and I would like to put it to rest. My continued attempts at self-typing have failed so I put my type in your hands. I have tried to include as much relevant information about myself as possible.

I have always scored as an ENTp on tests (however on MBTI tests I often come out as 50/50 J/P). However I always found that the socionics description for an ENTp did not fit me very well, and neither did the functions. The description for ENTjs fits me better, but there are still things in it that do not fit. Below are the things about myself that makes me think I am an ENTp, and the things that would make more sense if I was an ENTj.

I am male, and 20 years old.


[ENTP]
Although my memory is not that good, I remember being very much like an ENTP when I was younger. Exploring off in my own little world, lots of day dreaming, spaced out, rebel, undisciplined, loved science fiction, optimistic, carefree. I had trouble making friends, although I had a few good ones that stuck around.

I display a lot of P tendencies which is the biggest reason I’m not sure whether I am an ENTj or not. Although I do plan out a lot of things in my life, I often have difficulties sticking to those plans. I am late to a lot of things. I often have to cancel or change plans with other people. I tend to put off a lot of things till the last minute (paperwork, sending in speeding tickets, homework, anything of that sort).

I also am pretty laid back, I want to let people do what they want (very un-ENTJ like tendency). Sometimes I can feel uncomfortable giving orders to people. I like being subtle.

I enjoy making theories to explain things in life that have yet to be explained. I love analyzing people.

Here are some things from ENTP profiles that I can see in myself:

-ENTps do not know how to keep the right psychological distance with people. This becomes especially noticeable during long term interaction. One day they can be friendly and the next day they can be completely opposite.

-However, they are quick and shrewd in day to day matters, taking advantage of every opportunity that arises.

-The other main peculiarity of ENTps behaviour is the ability to mobilise in extreme conditions. If somebody puts pressure on them they immediately counterattack, often with more than equal force.

-If ENTps are not interested in a particular job, they try to leave it until the last moment.

-ENTps are great masters of tricks and deceits, often more than ESTps, and what's more they do it in a very skilful manner. ENTps are masters of arrangement and sharp psychoanalysts, able to foresee exactly how others can react to a situation. They can turn the whole world against you, if you are not careful. ENTps also have the unique ability to make a deal with their conscience. They can successfully justify almost any wrong doing, thus ensuring that they will sleep well at night.

-Ne types experience large fluctuations in their energy state, from great enthusiasm and dynamism to complete physical inertia.


[ENTJ]
I am very goal orientated. I have several goals going on at any time that feed into larger more general life goals. I am very dedicated towards achieving those goals, and I have very strong willpower for certain things (not everything though, like mentioned above I procrastinate on some things). For instance I quit cigarettes cold turkey one day (after smoking for about 4 years). I work out according to my schedule, no matter how busy or tired or sick I am. I do not tolerate weakness from myself in these kinds of matters. I always achieve what I set out to achieve.

I definitely think I am becoming more like an ENTj as I get older. The profile of an ENTp fits my younger self very well but not anymore. I know that my type cannot change but I am confused as to what my real type is.

This describes me very very well:

Possessing a peculiar combination of idealism and pragmatism in his personality, the ENTj is a person who wants to make his dreams come true.

I am very pragmatic, although I thirst for knowledge I only do so in areas that I think will prove useful in the future.

I have a very strong desire to become wealthy and powerful ( hidden agenda?). This is the ultimate goal, all other goals are merely to prepare myself for/get closer to the main one. I have a knack for making money and maybe it’s the Ni but I have very good luck in financial matters. Things often seem to go my way.

I have excellent memory for facts, it is the only area of my memory that I can count on. If I study a textbook for history class, I can remember almost all of it easily, and in great detail. I always greatly enjoy it. Same goes for any other kind of factual information. I remember detailed facts easily, and when someone asks me about those facts I can go on and on.

I am a good dresser, but in an odd way. When I first started buying my own clothes I always used to get shit like neon blue coats, neon orange, classic ENTj stuff. After I while I guess I learned which color combinations worked through observation, help from ex-girlfriends, etc. I dress in a very simple manner, if I try anything too complicated it never works. However as long as I stick to the simple style and the things that I know work, I get a lot of compliments on how I dress. However I often find myself going into a bathroom to look in the mirror to check if I look good. I would guess that the way I look is my insecurity ( POLR?), and that is why I put a lot of effort into learning how to dress.

Another sign that I have a POLR is that my body is kind of numb. I can endure a lot of pain, for instance I have worked out through excruciating injuries (by telling myself I was weak if I couldn’t get through it). In the past, when I did a lot of drugs, I would greatly enjoy the mental aspect but I wouldn’t really be able to feel the “body buzz” or other purely pleasurable sensations that my friends would be feeling. Although I love having sex, on a purely physical level it doesn’t feel that great. I also have a very weak sense of smell; I can endure bad smells a lot better than other people. I remember sometimes when I was younger I would come home and take off my shirt and notice that my arm was all bloody from a cut or something. I had no idea.

I display a very wide range of emotions, most of which I endeavor to keep under control. However the one that I never can is my anger. These two snippets from ENTj profiles describe me perfectly:

The ENTj can get very angry. He hates to get walked upon. Respect is extremely important in a relationship for an ENTj. He cannot tolerate a lack of respect from others.

In everyday life ENTjs can be careless making it very easy for them to get into hot water. Sometimes they can even show delinquency, bullying and aggressive behavior. They are very quick tempered often trying to solve their problem with their fists first.


[Main functions]
I had thought I was an ENTp for about a year when I began to doubt it. One of the biggest reasons was because of the fact that, while the ENTp type is known to be “inventive,” I am really not inventive at all. I have never invented anything in my whole life. Although I can come up with a creative and ingenious solution to solve a difficult problem that has confronted me, this is just once in a while. I don’t automatically see all the possibilities like ENTps often say they do. If I want to see the possibilities regarding something, I have to kind of force myself to do it. Analyze the situation, and then logically think what the possibilities are. However I do love new ideas and I easily embrace them.

I think it would make the most sense if I had some kind of thinking function as my lead one, however I am not too sure if this is . I am still not to keen on the differences between and . I am pretty good at seeing whether a situation will be profitable or not, and while I am not the best at high level mathematics I am very quick at financial calculations. I am good at quick analysis, and analysis of the long term benefits of a certain situation. I love to analyze people and come up with theories why they are the way they are. I am good at seeing cause and effect. I am good at coming up with efficient arrangements, increasing efficiency.

It is hard to say if I have or not. I definitely get some premonitions some times, but I have trouble interpreting them. Sometimes I can predict what the top card on a deck is, but only if I don’t try. I can never request that my give me an intuitive answer, but they will just come to me at random times. However I can’t always tell the difference between a intuition and a random thought. I do think I have a good sense of timing.


[Random stuff that I’m not sure makes me an ENTp or an ENTj]
I have a strong desire to perfect myself. I have a large number of self-improvement books.

I can make friends very easily if I am in the right mood. It all depends on my mood. I have bursts of ESTPish outgoingness sometimes.

I love status symbols like expensive clothes, a nice car.

I often have trouble falling asleep and staying asleep.

I am very good at persuading people to do as I want them to do.

I love music and I am often told that I have very good taste, people like the stuff I play. I am good at anticipating what kind of music people like and I will play it for them when they are in my car.



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Ok this is a lot of stuff to go through, but if you would take the time and give it a thorough analysis it would be greatly appreciated. I don’t think my mind will be able to relax until this is solved and I have a clear answer. If you need any more information don’t hesitate to ask. Thank you very much.

[FDG]

Wtf, are you myself? Except the expensive cars. And the sleep-.

This isn't really friggin possible O

[anndelise]

I'm just curious, which fits you better?

Perceives information about objects' inner content, structure, underlying phenomena, and inherent possibilities
By processing objects' quantifiable properties, correlations/proportions, rules, and hierarchies.

or

Perceives information about objects' data structure and the what/how/where of behaviors and events
By processing objects' timing and patterns of processes.

or neither?

[pezzonovante]

That is a very tough question annadelise, one that I have asked myself many times. Honestly I think both of them fit me well and are equally right, I am not able to choose one over another.

FDG - haha that is crazy if everything i posted matches you as well

[Kim]

That is a very tough question annadelise, one that I have asked myself many times. Honestly I think both of them fit me well and are equally right, I am not able to choose one over another.

That settles it, you are ENTp. :wink:

If I have to choose between ENTp and ENTj, I would say ENTj. But I am getting some sort of sensory vibe. ESTj possible?

[pezzonovante]

Hmm I have never really even considered that I could be a sensor. Like I wrote in my description my body is somewhat numb, I do not feel physical sensations very strongly. I am also often lost in thought, however I have trained myself to pay attention to the world around me. A lot of my friends/family are strong sensors and I definately feel different from them.

What gives you the sensory vibe?

[Kim]

I will explain when I am less tired, but take Hugo's test in the meantime!

http://www.people.iup.edu/rdxm/ptest_stage1.htm

[anndelise]

What kinds of things do you do/have done that deal specifically with each of these descriptions?


Perceives information about objects' inner content, structure, underlying phenomena, and inherent possibilities
By processing objects' quantifiable properties, correlations/proportions, rules, and hierarchies.



Perceives information about objects' data structure and the what/how/where of behaviors and events
By processing objects' timing and patterns of processes.

(going to bed, so I won't read this until at least 7 hours from now)

[aestrivex]

one method, which is dabbled on briefly on lytov's site, of differentiating between quasi-identicals is comparison of creative functions.

that is, if you are ENTp, you have creative, which indicates that while you are thinking about things, you have a tendency to think subjectively. my best definition of this is a tendency to omit data when it is not necessary or readily available in order to reach an immediate conclusion. An ENTj would not do this.

on the other hand, an ENTj creative function is , which in an ENTp is probably best construed as a strong sense of timing and a knowledge of the consequences of actions and how to best manage oneself in the world. An ENTp would not likely use their intuition in this way.

[Expat]

I fully agree with FDG, I thought he was ENTj until I saw that "I love status symbols like expensive cars and clothers" thing.

It might make sense if he was intuitive subtype.

[pezzonovante]

Kim -

the test gave me ENTj

Ann -

In regards to the first one, I often perceive information about objects' underlying phenomena. I like to understand everything around me, and when I encounter something that I do not understand the question "why?" must always be answered. I can also perceive information about inherent possibilities, but that is not an automatic response. I have to consciously request that information through my logical thinking. I process correlations mostly, I can often see the relations between things, and I am very good at noticing patterns.

In regards to the second one, I often perceive information about the what/how of behaviors and events. I catalog information that I observe, and file it away for later use. I definately notice objects' timing and patterns of processes, and use this information to perform a logical analysis to give me the information I need.

Niffweed -

I have a good sense of timing and knowledge of consequences of actions. In fact I think I am very good at seeing the consequences of actions, and I would like to say that I am good at managing myself in the world . I am not to sure if I think subjectively and whether I omit data or not.

Expat -

Can you give me a profile for each of the subtypes? And the expensive clothes/cars thing - I might have just gotten that from my parents as they like those kinds of things (ESTP/ISFJ).



Everyone thank you very much for your replies...

[Expat]

Regarding intutitive subtype - - I wasn't thinking of profiles.

The "status symbol" thing was the one part of your post I could not relate to at all. I would never exchange hard cash for a "status symbol", unless it was necessary to achieve something professionally or socially -- but then it wouldn't be a "status symbol" anymore, but an instrument.

If you really like status symbols themselves, that suggests a shift from to and therefore making you slightly like an ENFj, so ENTj intuitive subtype.

This is a Babelfish translation of a Russian description:

ENTj logical subtype

Most dynamic of all psycho-types, pioneer in his region of activity, searches for the supporters, with whom it is possible to together realize its or general ideas. It is very emotional and impulsive; therefore it can be inconsistent in the matters. It is trusting, because of its carelessness it can fall into the different histories, it seems spontaneous. It can well appear itself into the free of market activity, if it loses - it does not lose the presence of spirit and optimism, it again goes forward. Little attention it gives to the exterior view and the health, it is outwardly thin, very mobile, it sometimes bears beard and whiskers, it occurs, which conducts the disorderly means of life.

ENTj intuitive subtype

Calm and balanced, conducts the regulated means of life, feels well prospect. Quietly he selects, what idea it is better to neglect into the matter, will always find the most optimum and advantageous output, which will give the greatest return. This frequently - scientist- naturalist, experimenter, the matter gives to mind and hands simultaneously. It can be occupied by chemistry, and by painting, in this case he tries to bring everything to the end. Excellent igrotekhnik, experimenter. It will get along well with the children, it easily carries along by their interesting matter. Outwardly - that restrained, denser constitution than terminal, tries to dress well and follows its health.

[Kristiina]

I would definitely say ENTj. There are various reasons,
-your ENTp traits can be applied to some ENTjs
-your ENTp traits are decreasing (you're 20. It makes sense that you hadn't started behaving like an your true self yet).
-you got ENTj on Hugo's test (which seems to be a surprisingly accurate test)
-you have many important ENTj traits, some of which might be considered somewhat controversial in this forum, but IMO are very ENTj'ish (wanting to show your success)
-You have strong goals. I didn't think ENTps have them like that.
etc.

I consider myself to be ENTj intuitive subtype and many things you described are very similar to me. Even if they aren't all that similar to the other ENTjs on this forum.

I hope you're here to stay.

[Ms. Kensington]

i also feel as if i acted differently when younger.

you should examine your new traits to see if they can't be traced to the old ones.. for example, is your desire for power linked to something like wanting people to like you?

[diamond]

The way you write seems more entp to me. Entj's come across differently to me when posting. And they don't hesitate on decisions one bit.

[Kristiina]

The way you write seems more entp to me. Entj's come across differently to me when posting. And they don't hesitate on decisions one bit.

stereotype. Not true. Everyone hesitates on decisions. ENTjs are just somewhat more decisive. When presented with conflicting, but subjectively equal evidence, it's sometimes hard to decide what I think. But what makes us different, is that ENTjs tend to decide more often, even in moments where other people leave the issue open-ended.

[anndelise]

Ann -

In regards to the first one, I often perceive information about objects' underlying phenomena. I like to understand everything around me, and when I encounter something that I do not understand the question "why?" must always be answered. I can also perceive information about inherent possibilities, but that is not an automatic response. I have to consciously request that information through my logical thinking. I process correlations mostly, I can often see the relations between things, and I am very good at noticing patterns.

In regards to the second one, I often perceive information about the what/how of behaviors and events. I catalog information that I observe, and file it away for later use. I definately notice objects' timing and patterns of processes, and use this information to perform a logical analysis to give me the information I need.

ENTps/ENFps are driven to seek out the inner structure/underlying phenomena of objects such as people and systems. (people are really just complex systems). The difference between an ENTp and an ENFp is that the ENTp seeks out quanitifiable data and correlations to determine the inner structure, while the ENFp seeks to find out what is connected/correlated to what, and what doesn't seem to apply. One is more...measurable...than the other. Neither is more "logical" than the other.

ENTps supplement their quantifiable data with information about the internal processes/changes and excitation/subduedness of the object. Somehow, this information helps them perceive the quantifiable data and correlations.

ENFps supplement their sense of what's connected/not-connected with information about the data structure and the what/how/where of behaviors/events. Somehow, this information helps them perceive the connectedness/non-connectedness and correlations.

Your response to the first description suggests a possibility of ENTp/ENFp.

Your response to the second one is interesting as well. Mostly because all you really did was rearrange my wording, and made the sentences less compact. You didn't actually answer the question. Oh yes, you added some generic thing about using logical analysis. But you didn't actually explain anything, unlike your response to the first question. (Which was also just mostely rearranged, but with a some added information.) (Note: Adding information suggests to me that you understood/identified with those parts of the descriptions better than the other parts.)

Based on how you answered my question, I'd say ENTp/ENFp.
Based on how you answered my questions AND most of the information you provided in your first post, suggest closer to ENTp/ENFp than ENTj.
However, the ENTjs seem to have identified with much of what you said. And, I suppose if I tried hard, I could probably find a correlation between your answers to me and being an ENTj.

Perhaps, time and interaction will tell.
(Yes, I'm aware that my personal judgement does not affect his type, so )

[diamond]

The way you write seems more entp to me. Entj's come across differently to me when posting. And they don't hesitate on decisions one bit.

stereotype. Not true. Everyone hesitates on decisions. ENTjs are just somewhat more decisive.

I disagree. The entj's (and estj's) I know are quite a bit more decisive than a majority of other types.

[Kristiina]

The way you write seems more entp to me. Entj's come across differently to me when posting. And they don't hesitate on decisions one bit.

stereotype. Not true. Everyone hesitates on decisions. ENTjs are just somewhat more decisive.

I disagree. The entj's (and estj's) I know are quite a bit more decisive than a majority of other types.

Yes. this is true.

I just disagreed with the extreme wording: "don't hesitate one bit", which seems a bit too superhuman for anyone to identify with it. I don't know how decisive I seem IRL, but I'm sometimes torn between options (when they are equally good, but have different outcomes.).

[Joy]

I haven't read any of this thread except the first post (and I generally don't read long posts). I think you are whatever type I am. The only things that didn't sound like me were the workout schedule and the status symbols. To me, driving an exepnsive car is a waste of money that could have otherwise been making me money. I've been on and off about working out, mostly off.

[pezzonovante]

Why thank you Kristiina, and yes I am definately here to stay :wink:

Ann - I didn't even realize that my second response was simple rewording until you pointed it out. You have a good point that I could be an ENTP - I really am driven to seek out the inner structure of people and systems such as businesses. However I also see that I do it in a Te way - I first figure out a business and then I consider how it could be streamlined and made more efficient. Regardless, you have shown me that ENFPs are very intelligent

Haha I am actually not that decisive. Either I make a decision instantaneously, or if I start dragging it out it takes me a while.

That's what makes it so difficult for me to decide what type I am - I seem to have an ENTj's functions without the actual J letter.

It is so frustrating to not know for sure what type I am. I would really like to know, not just for the sake of knowing, but so I can start developing my lead functions more. I have spent the last few years building on my weak sensing functions, even before I discovered socionics. I always hated being clumsy and not knowing everything that was going on around me, so I wanted to work on my weak points. Now that my sensing is at an acceptable level, I want to prepare myself for the business world. The question is whether I am going to be preparing or . Since there are several ENTjs and ENTps posting on this thread, I would like to ask - what is the best way to develop either of these leading functions? I assume that it would not be that different for either so even if I can't find my real type I can start preparing without wasting time. I also think my strengths will become more evident when they are more developed.

[meatburger]

Hmm im really not sure what you are mate. To me it seems to be torn between ENTP and ENTJ still.

My ENTP friend(im pretty sure hes ENTP) is very very goal driven. He will set targets etc for himself like Do weights 5 times a week, do programming every night etc. Now he doesn't always meet these goals but thats beside the point

An ENTP just started working for my company and he sits next to me. He reminds me of an older version of my friend, the likness is uncanny. The ENTP's are both a little strange. Like the jokes they make wont quite be traditional. One of them always says quotes from movies etc. One striking thing i notice about them, is they are both very smart, however i can notice a small flicker of not being sure of himself every now and then when talking to a group etc. He talks quite fast. Its interesting in the older one, i can notice that same sense of being unsure but to a much less degree, he hides it far better. The ENTP's seem to have a big ego. You can tell they think quite highly of themselves and they both say offensive stuff to people not caring too much about it.

My ENTJ friend is more level headed. He is always generally the same guy, he will often do things like go up to people and shoot tissues at them or he will get a leaf and come up behind them and rub it on their ear. It ammuses him greatly. The ENTJ is slightly more talented socially in my opinion. His jokes are funnier(could be just to me) and he seems to have more tact and charm.

I cant explain it really lol. When i watch the two different types in action, i can tell very easily their differences though.

[Phaedrus]

There are also indirect methods for finding out whether you are an ENTp or an ENTj. One such method is to read a few descriptions of the Enneagram types Seven and Eight. Many of those descriptions (there are countless of them on the Internet) will accentuate more of the most striking differences between ENTps and ENTjs. If you can clearly see that you are more of a 7 than an 8, or more of an 8 than a 7, then you have probably found your type. A typical ENTjs is an Eight (8), a typical ENTp is a Seven (7).

[pezzonovante]

I thought ENTP was equivalent to 3w4 on the Enneagram?

[Gilly]

Ew. No. 7 for sure. I'm ENTp 7w6.

[pezzonovante]

It says on ptypes.com that ENTP corresponds with 3w4, but then again that is a MBTI ENTP. I find the enneagram 3 to describe me perfectly. Both 7 and 8 do not describe me that well. However the enneagram profiles that I am reading are not that detailed, if you could recommend some better ones I'll take a look at them.

[Gilly]

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/

Might as well take the test while you're at it. Here's the direct link:

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/dis_sample_36.asp

For the record, if I could pick any two enneagram types that describe me, regardless of what wings are normally allowed, they would be 7 and 3. So yeah, it's possible that you're ENTp, but I wouldn't rule ENTj out yet, especially if you test as an 8.

[Phaedrus]

It says on ptypes.com that ENTP corresponds with 3w4, but then again that is a MBTI ENTP. I find the ennegram 3 to describe me perfectly, both 7 and 8 don't describe me that well.

An MBTI ENTP is empirically the same type as an ENTp, so that is no problem. But a typical Enneagram 3 is an S type, and the most typical 3 is probably an ESTp, whereas a typical 7 is an extraverted intuitive type, either ENTp or ENFp.

Now one might wonder if you really are either an ENTj or an ENTp, or if you might be for example an ESTp. But even if you are one of the N types, and still think you are an Enneagram 3, you should be able to compare the types 7 and 8 to see which of those two types describes you better.

And besides that, if you really understand the difference between J and P behaviour and lifestyle, it shouldn't be that difficult to determine whether you are a J or a P type. ENTps are more childlike and enthusiastic in a typical "P-ish" way, whereas ENTjs might be childlike when they rest from work, but in their working habits and general lifestyle they are usually much more scheduled, disciplined and "adult-like" than ENTps.

[Joy]

enneagram can eat shit and die

[Phaedrus]

I can't find the links to these descriptions, but they can be found somewhere on the Internet:

3. Motivators. Motivators admire success, and want others to admire their successes. Threes are generally competitive people who place great value on winning, "scoring points" (either literally or figuratively), and looking good. Publicly, 3s project high self-esteem, driving relentlessly toward their career and life goals. Privately, threes are still high-energy, but may tell close friends of a chronic feeling of "falling behind", despite whatever public admiration they may receive. Many 3s are rather image-driven, taking on whatever ideal is supported by the society they live in. "Success" is a major goal of many 3's, who are apt to use their competitive drive, adaptability, and persuasive talents to create successes in everything they try. Although 3s have a reputation for being hard-nosed competitors, they are often quite perceptive of other's emotions, which allows them to quickly adapt their message to their audience. For better or worse, 3s also have a reputation for being excellent salesmen who can win over the most reluctant audience.

Social threes can be charming and sometimes smooth talking, and often use their networking skills to augment their image and their career, which may be closely linked. Sexual or self-preservationist threes may still strut their stuff, but are more likely to promote themselves through competence and skillful performance than through showmanship. Healthy 3s are highly accomplished people who also know how to act "cool", but unhealthy threes are notorious for seeming phony and in love with themselves.

American culture is probably a 3-ish society, with its emphasis on appearances, success, and winning.

7. Enthusiasts. Sevens often have a hard time sitting still, because there are so many stimulating things that they love to do. They tend to be adventurous, exuberant, and very broad in their interests. Some 7s can be very witty and lively, but their attention spans may also become short as they anxiously search for the novel and new. 7s often paradoxically combine their youthful spirit with a sense of being unusually experienced for their age. Healthy sevens are exuberant and eternally youthful, while unhealthy sevens become childish in their demands for instant gratification.

In the extreme, 7s can go crazy with activity, juggling many different activities at the same time, often with the help of cell phones and a remarkable ability to hold many plans in their head at the same time. 7s often come across as very lucky, giving the impression that incredibly fortunate coincidences just happen to them all the time. In reality, the 7's multitasking mind is also very good at opening doors for multiple opportunities, and then paying attention when opportunity walks in. 7s are unusually good problem solvers in a pinch, improvising solutions out of whatever is at hand. This improvisational ability makes some 7s quite entertaining and comedic, but with a tendency to disappear when hard problems have to be dealt with. 7s are also called "generalists", because they can quickly master several areas of expertise, and cross-fertilize between them. But they may also become dilletantes, slow to finish or follow through. Healthy sevens can be extremely productive while still having fun in their work. Though they may seem selfish in seeking pleasure, they also have an egalitarian streak – when they are happy, they prefer to spread the joy to everyone around them, and living around a healthy 7 is a continuously stimulating experience. Less healthy sevens often seem to be in a desperate battle against boredom, leading to breakdowns if boredom should temporarily win out.

Comparisons with other types: Fours and sevens both hate ordinariness and hence both seek adventure. But fours seek inner adventure, embracing both pleasure and pain, while sevens seek more worldly adventures, and avoid pain. 7s tend toward compulsive activity that prevents self-examination, while 4s tend toward excessive self-examination that prevents activity.

8. Confronters. Type eight is the toughest on the outside. At work, eights are assertive, speak their minds, make quick decisions, and respect others who do the same. Their speech often has an earthy, lusty tone of voice, and when they are in their element, they often move with expansive gestures. They like to own their own power base, and resist working for others or being controlled by any authority. They are often shrewd in using circumstances to their material advantage. They do not like threats to their dominance, or people who hide information from them, and may force confrontations with others just to get at the truth. 8s like to be in control, but may also give tremendous autonomy to subordinates they trust, which others find very empowering. Eights may show a softer side at home, where their strength is used not to dominate, but to protect. 8s are the prototypical "father figures", (even if they are women). When eights are secure in their dominance, they may expand their caring side by becoming magnanimous and generous. However, insecure 8s are the most tyrannical, destructive, and self-serving types. Many historically great world leaders are 8s, but so are many ordinary people who project a strong sense of being their own person, refusing to be used or led by others.

While some types dislike conflict (notably 9s and 7s), eights are energized by it. This ability helps them overcome obstacles that would crush a weaker person. During periods of historical crisis, it is often an eight (or someone with a strong eight wing), who comes to the forefront as a political or military leader.

Both 8s and 1s may set rules for others to follow. However, 1s feel guilty when they break their own rules, while the 8's sense of power relies on being free from all rules, including potentially their own.

Motivators (3s) and 8s are both competitive, and both push others to get what they want and to get things done. But 3s care a lot about popularity, image, and what others think of them, while 8s are more defiant of what others think of them. 3s want to impress others, while 8s prefer to be respected, even if this means being disliked by some.

8s with 9 wings are less obviously 8s, because the 9 wing considerably softens the traits of the 8. Both 8w9s and 9w8s are often difficult to understand, because the 8 and 9 are such opposing forces.

The Enneagram of Personality Types: Authors on Type 3
Claudio Naranjo
From Ennea-Type Structures: Self-Analysis for the Seeker

Success through Appearances (Ennea-Type III)

Vanity, Inauthenticity and the "Marketing Orientation"
Trait Structure
Attention Need and Vanity
Achieving Orientation
Social Sophistication and Skill
Cultivation of Sexual Attractiveness
Deceit and Image Manipulation
Other-Directedness
Pragmatism
Active Vigilance
Superficiality

Helen Palmer
From The Enneagram: Understanding Yourself and the Others in Your Life

Point Three: The Performer

The preoccupations of Point Three include:
Identification with achievement and performance.
Efficiency.
Competition and the avoidance of failure.
The belief that love comes from what you produce, rather than for who you are.
Selective attention to whatever is positive. Tuning out of negatives.
Poor access to personal feelings. Emotions are suspended while the job gets done.
Presentation of an image that is adjusted to gain approval. A high- profile public persona.
Confusion between one's real self and the characteristics that are appropriate to one's role or job.
A way of paying attention that is called convergent thinking, in which a multitrack mind is focused upon a single goal.
Intuitive adjustment of self-presentation, often to the point of believing that the image is one's true self.

Don Richard Riso
From Understanding the Enneagram: The Practical Guide to Personality Types
Personality Type Three: The Motivator
The Self-Assured, Ambitious, Narcissistic, Psychopathic Person

Childhood Origin: Connected to mother-figure.
Basic Fear: Of being rejected.
Basic Desire: To be accepted.
Healthy Sense of Self: I am desirable.
Characteristic Temptation: To be too competitive.
Characteristic Vice: Sloth in self-development.
Characteristic Virtue: Proper love of self.
Hidden Complaint: I am a superior person, and other people are jealous of me.
Key Defense Mechanisms: Repression, projection, displacement.

Margaret Frings Keyes
From Emotions and the Enneagram: Working Through Your Shadow Life Script

Point Three: The Program of Achievement with Emphasis on Image

Special Gift: The ability to get things done
Self-Definition: "I'm successful."
Shadow Issue: Lying
Rejected Element: Failure
Addiction: Efficiency
Strength Needed: Truth/hope
Defense Mechanism: Identification
Psychological Disturbance: Workaholism; manic-depression
Talk Style: Self-promotion

Preoccupations Include:
Identification with competitive achievement.
Belief that they get love for what they produce rather than what they are.
Poor access to personal feelings. Constant adjustment of image to gain approval.
Self-deception to maintain a public image.

Identification of self with role or job over family concerns.
Submission by conforming to other's values, then avoidance of depression by achieving the other's approval.
Convergent thinking: a multi-track mind focused on a single goal.

Focus:
Personal emphasis on security.
Couple emphasis on masculinity/femininity.
Community emphasis on prestige.

Life Task: To stop valuing themselves in terms of their performance. Usually only a significant failure can precipitate the depression needed to sufficiently slow down and question what they are doing, and why. Hope comes with the practice of truth and in glimpsing a larger vision of lawfulness.

Kathleen V. Hurley & Theodore E. Dobson
From What's My Type?

Three: The Succeeder

Deception: Hide behind strength (Deceit)
Pseudo-deception: Failure
Antidote: Integrity
Pseudo-antidote: Completing tasks
Illusion of Reality: Being recognized/admired
Self-justification: "I will accomplish anything."
Time Orientation: Work toward future goals
Approach to Problem Solving: Aggressive: "I accomplish."
Relationship to Life: Way of Mediation: "I negotiate with life."

William J. Callahan
From The Enneagram for Youth: Counselor's Manual

Type Three: The Performer

Personality Identification

What do I want most?
I want to be noticed, to be admired for doing things well.

What is most important to me?
It is important that others see me as being successful.

What is the worst thing that could happen to me?
The worst thing that could happen to me is that I fail at something and other people find out.

How do I see myself (on a good day)?
I am self-confident, competitive, attractive, a winner.


The Enneagram of Personality Types: Authors on Type 7

Claudio Naranjo
From Ennea-Type Structures: Self-Analysis for the Seeker

Opportunistic Idealism (Ennea-Type VII)

Gluttony, Fraudulence and Narcissism
Trait Structure:
Gluttony
Hedonistic Permissiveness
Rebelliousness
Lack of Discipline
Imaginary Wish Fulfillment
Seductive Pleasingness
Narcissism
Persuasiveness
Fraudulence

Helen Palmer
From The Enneagram: Understanding Yourself and the Others in Your Life

Point Seven: The Epicure

The preoccupations of Point Seven include:

The need to maintain high levels of excitement. Many activities, many interesting things to do. Wanting to stay emotionally high.
Maintenance of multiple options as a way to buffer commitment to a single course of action.
Replacement of deep contact with pleasant mental alternatives. Talking, planning, and intellectualizing.
Charm as a first line of defense. Fear types who move toward people. Avoid direct conflict by going through the cracks. Talk your way out of trouble.
An attentional style of interrelating and systematizing information, such that commitments necessarily include loopholes and other backup options. This style of attention can lead to
Rationalized escapism from difficult or limiting tasks.
The ability to synthesize unusual connections and parallels between what appear to be antagonistic or unrelated points of view.

Don Richard Riso
From Understanding the Enneagram: The Practical Guide to Personality Types

Personality Type Seven: The Generalist
The Accomplished, Extroverted, Excessive, Manic Person

Childhood Origin: Disconnected from mother-figure.
Basic Fear: Of being deprived.
Basic Desire: To be satisfied.
Healthy Sense of Self: I am happy.
Characteristic Temptation: To be too acquisitive.
Characteristic Vice: Gluttony.
Characteristic Virtue: Gratitude.
Hidden Complaint: I am happy, although I would be a lot happier if I got everything I wanted.
Key Defense Mechanisms: Repression, externalization, acting out.

Margaret Frings Keyes
From Emotions and the Enneagram: Working Through Your Shadow Life Script

Point Seven: The Program of Easy Optimism with Uneasy Activity

Special Gift: The ability to create pleasure and make things happen
Self-Definition: "I'm fun. I see the bright side of life."
Shadow Issue: Gluttony
Rejected Element: Pain
Addiction: Easy Optimism
Strength Needed: Level-headed moderation
Defense Mechanism: Rationalization
Psychological Disturbance: Narcissistic personality
Talk Style: Anecdotes
Preoccupations Include:

Maintaining high levels of stimulation, many activities, many things to do, wanting to stay "high."
Replacing deep contact with pleasant talking, planning, intellectualizing.
Defusing threat; maintaining a smokescreen of activity.
Charm as a first line of defense against fear. Talking one's way out of trouble.
Interrelating and systematizing information such that commitments necessarily include loopholes and other backup options which can lead to rationalized escape from difficult commitments, but can also lead to an ability to synthesize unusual connections and parallels between what appear to be antagonistic points of view.
Superiority/inferiority dichotomy.

Focus:
Personal emphasis on savoring life.
Couple emphasis on being with people of like-mind.
Community emphasis on limits and obligations.

Life Task: To work with a sense of proportion and balance anchored in the now. Pain of any kind can serve as a steadying point of focus.

Kathleen V. Hurley & Theodore E. Dobson
From What's My Type?

Seven: The Dreamer

Deception: Feeling happy (Gluttony)
Pseudo-deception: Complexity of life
Antidote: Fortitude
Pseudo-antidote: Boundless optimism
Illusion of Reality: Looking to the future
Self-justification: "I will make the world happy."
Time Orientation: Work on future plans
Approach to Problem Solving: Aggressive: "I accomplish."
Relationship to Life: Way of Reduction: "I am overwhelmed by life."

William J. Callahan
From The Enneagram for Youth: Counselor's Manual

Type Seven: The Materialist

Personality Identification

What do I want most?
I want happiness, excitement, to discover, and to do new things.

What is most important to me?
It is important to me to always have a plan for what happens next. I always have a plan for the future.

What is the worst thing that could happen to me?
The worst thing that could happen to me would be to be bored and broke.

How do I see myself (on a good day)?
I am friendly, fun-loving, and able to do well at whatever I choose to do.


The Enneagram of Personality Types: Authors on Type 8
Claudio Naranjo
From Ennea-Type Structures: Self-Analysis for the Seeker

Coming on Strong (Ennea-Type VIII)

Lust and Vindinctive Arrogance
Trait Structure:
Lust
Punitiveness
Rebelliousness
Dominance
Insensitivity
Conning and Cynicism
Exhibitionism (Narcissism)
Autonomy
Sensorimotor Dominance

Helen Palmer
From The Enneagram: Understanding Yourself and the Others in Your Life

Point Eight: The Boss

The preoccupations of Point Eight include:
Control of personal possessions and space and control of people who are likely to influence the Eight's life.
Aggression and the open expression of anger.
Concern with justice and the protection of others.
Fighting and sex as a way of making contact. Trusting people who can hold their own in a fight.
Excess as an antidote to boredom. Late hours, heavy entertainment, bingeing. Too much, too loud, too many.
Difficulty in recognizing the dependent aspects of the self. When affected by others, can deny real feelings by withdrawal, by claiming boredom, or by internally blaming the self for past misdeeds.
An all-or-nothing style of attention, which tends to see things in extremes. Other people appear to be either strong or weak, either fair or unfair, with no middle ground. This style of attention can lead to
Not recognizing one's own weakness and the automatic denial of other points of view in favor of the single "legitimate" opinion that is going to make the Eight feel secure, or
The exercise of appropriate force in the service of others.

Don Richard Riso
From Understanding the Enneagram: The Practical Guide to Personality Type
Personality Type Eight: The Leader
The Powerful, Expansive, Dictatorial, Destructive Person

Childhood Origin: Ambivalent to mother-figure.
Basic Fear: Of submitting to another.
Basic Desire: To be self-reliant.
Healthy Sense of Self: I am strong.
Characteristic Temptation: To be too self-sufficient.
Characteristic Vice: Lust.
Characteristic Virtue: Magnanimity.
Hidden Complaint: I am fighting for my own survival, and others would take advantage of me if I let them.
Key Defense Mechanisms: Repression, displacement, denial.

Margaret Frings Keyes
From Emotions and the Enneagram: Working Through Your Shadow Life Script

Point Eight: The Program of Self-defined Justice with Arrogance

Special Gift: Care for the Underdog
Self-Definition: "I can do. I'm powerful."
Shadow Issue: Lust – use of others as objects
Rejected Element: Weakness
Addiction: Arrogant justice
Strength Needed: Trust
Defense Mechanism: Denial
Psychological Disturbance: Sociopath
Talk Style: Imperatives

Preoccupations Include:
Aggression and impulse control.
Puritan/hedonist dichotomy.
Control of personal objects, space and people likely to influence the EIGHT'S life.
Excessive (to others) self-presentation – too much, too loud.
Tendency to see things in extremes, people either strong or weak, fair or unfair, with no middle ground; an automatic denial of other points of view in favor of single "legitimate" opinion that supports the EIGHT'S security.
Concern with justice and the protection of others.

Focus:
Personal emphasis on satisfactory survival.
Couple emphasis on possession/surrender.
Community emphasis on friendship.

Life Task: Realization of truth and justice in each moment's flow of reality. Accepting one's personal weakness offers the possibility of integration.

Kathleen V. Hurley & Theodore E. Dobson
From What's My Type?

Eight: The Confronter

Deception: Need to conquer (Lust for life)
Pseudo-deception: Weakness
Antidote: Compassion
Pseudo-antidote: Being strong
Illusion of Reality: Power
Self-justification: "I will accomplish everything important."
Time Orientation: Work to make the future just
Approach to Problem Solving: Aggressive: "I accomplish."
Relationship to Life: Way of Subjugation: "I meet life head on."

William J. Callahan
From The Enneagram for Youth: Counselor's Manual

Type Eight: The Chief

Personality Identification

What do I want most?
I want to be in control, to lead, and to show that I am stronger than others.

What is most important to me?
It is important to me that I be in control of what goes on around me.

What is the worst thing that could happen to me?
The worst thing that could happen to me is that things around me get out of control.

How do I see myself (on a good day)?
I am different, independent, decisive, and respected.

[FDG]

There are also indirect methods for finding out whether you are an ENTp or an ENTj. One such method is to read a few descriptions of the Enneagram types Seven and Eight. Many of those descriptions (there are countless of them on the Internet) will accentuate more of the most striking differences between ENTps and ENTjs. If you can clearly see that you are more of a 7 than an 8, or more of an 8 than a 7, then you have probably found your type. A typical ENTjs is an Eight (8), a typical ENTp is a Seven (7).

I'm sure of being a 7w8, and supposedly ENTj.

[Joy]

[Phaedrus]

I'm sure of being a 7w8, and supposedly ENTj.

How did you become sure of being a 7w8? Are you more sure of being a 7w8 than of being an ENTj?

[FDG]

I'm sure of being a 7w8, and supposedly ENTj.

How did you become sure of being a 7w8? Are you more sure of being a 7w8 than of being an ENTj?

More sure of being 7w8. Don't aske me too many of those kind of questions you keep asking to every one that does not align with your picture, cuz I find them highly annoying. They come across as you think everybody's stupid except you.

[Phaedrus]

According to Enneagram, I'm an 8w7.

How do you know that? The same goes for the Enneagram as for other typologies. You don't become a certain type just by getting a certain result on one or several tests. And you are not a certain type because you think that you are that type. In every type theory, typing mistakes are possible, and you have to make a thorough investigation before you can be really sure about your type.

And making fun of other typologies will not get you closer to the truth. If you know how to interpret, analyze, and critically compare different sources of information, you will get a more complete and correct understanding of the real types.

[Phaedrus]

Don't aske me too many of those kind of questions you keep asking to every one that does not align with your picture, cuz I find them highly annoying. They come across as you think everybody's stupid except you.

I'm not trying to make other people look stupid. If it seems so, that is an unintended effect. I am trying to get us closer to the truth by whatever means I believe will be successful. But sometimes I find it slightly annoying that so many people on this forum seem to be so sure of their types without having sufficient grounds for their claims. Correct typing is not that easy, whereas incorrect typing often is.

[Kristiina]

How do you know that? The same goes for the Enneagram as for other typologies. You don't become a certain type just by getting a certain result on one or several tests. (3) And you are not a certain type because you think that you are that type. In every type theory, typing mistakes are possible, and you have to make a thorough investigation (2) before you can be really sure about your type. (1)

Every typology has it's own system and own rules. Assuming the typology works completely, each person has one type that fits them.
You also somewhat proved it when you said that it is possible to type wrong, because if it's possible for a person to have the false type, it's also possible for each person to have a correct type. (otherwise "false" types would not exist).

First of all - Each typology measures the persons traits and claims that people can be correctly divided by it. Socionics is probably one of the most vague typology in that sense - it is impossible to "type" someone with full certainty - EVER. The tests don't matter, the self-image doesn't matter, the opinions of others barely matter... There seem to be no way of "being really sure about your type" (as you phrased it so simply. For reference, find (1) in your text.).

Second of all - You say that thorough investigation helps people find their real type. (reference, find (2)) Yet, you seem to have forgotten to add what you consider thorough investigation. None of the possible methods actually apply, because tests are not to be trusted (reference (3)). All of the other methods are unreliable, because they are subjective - from VI to self-image.

Third - You seem to make a very brave assumption that "typing" is just as impossible in enneagram as it is in socionics. I hadn't heard that the enneagram typology has the same fatal flaw as socionics. Could you please provide evidence or reference which indicates that enneagram tests are not to be trusted for enneagram typing.

[Phaedrus]

Every typology has it's own system and own rules.

Yes, but the system might be imperfect, and the rules might be incorrect. Not all typologies are made equal.

Assuming the typology works completely, each person has one type that fits them.

Each person has (or is) his or her inborn type regardless of which typology you prefer.

Each typology measures the persons traits and claims that people can be correctly divided by it.

Yes, but some of those typologies might be wrong about some of their claims.

Socionics is probably one of the most vague typology in that sense - it is impossible to "type" someone with full certainty - EVER.

No, it is not. In some cases there is no ground for doubt about a person's type. In such cases one could say that if the person is typed incorrectly the whole theory falls apart.

The tests don't matter, the self-image doesn't matter, the opinions of others barely matter... There seem to be no way of "being really sure about your type" (as you phrased it so simply. For reference, find (1) in your text.).

There is no single method that is totally reliable. But if we use several typing methods, and make several comparisons between different real life persons, and compare several type descriptions, and make empirical research based on the results from many different types of tests, we might reach a conclusion about someone's type that is, for all practical purposes, almost completely certain.

You say that thorough investigation helps people find their real type. (reference, find (2)) Yet, you seem to have forgotten to add what you consider thorough investigation. None of the possible methods actually apply, because tests are not to be trusted (reference (3)). All of the other methods are unreliable, because they are subjective - from VI to self-image.

If you want a name for the method we should use, we can call it the scientific method. A typing of someone is (or should be) a scientific investigation. And in that process we can use many different methods, and many different sources of information, because they all attempt to reach the same goal: to find the objective truth.

You seem to make a very brave assumption that "typing" is just as impossible in enneagram as it is in socionics. I hadn't heard that the enneagram typology has the same fatal flaw as socionics. Could you please provide evidence or reference which indicates that enneagram tests are not to be trusted for enneagram typing.

Enneagram tests are (of course) not more trustworthy than MBTI tests or the tests used by socionists. They are probably less trustworthy. But why should that bother us? We can try to make better tests, and we probably will be able to do that in the future, but the types are recognized by type descriptions and real life encounters. The types are not defined by the tests. On the contrary, we measure how accurate a test is by how often it manages to pick out the correct type.

[anndelise]

Enneagram tests are (of course) not more trustworthy than MBTI tests or the tests used by socionists. They are probably less trustworthy. But why should that bother us? We can try to make better tests, and we probably will be able to do that in the future, but the types are recognized by type descriptions and real life encounters. The types are not defined by the tests. On the contrary, we measure how accurate a test is by how often it manages to pick out the correct type.

What I find interesting about this whole conversation, is how a person will take two systems which are based on differing criteria/purposes, suggest that there is a link between them, and then suggest that those people who don't line up with that theory may be typed wrong.

My understanding is that each type theory has it's own system, and categorizes and describes people based on that particular system. How well that theory/system is capable of clearly differentiating and categorizing people is a different story. No two systems neccessarily line up together.

I'm a little confused about what your point is, Phaedrus. Your words seem to suggest that there might be some "one true type" instead of each of these systems being merely classification systems.

[Phaedrus]

What I find interesting about this whole conversation, is how a person will take two systems which are based on differing criteria/purposes, suggest that there is a link between them, and then suggest that those people who don't line up with that theory may be typed wrong.

If you compare the two systems you will see that there is a link between them. How can any one believe (or even imagine) that there is not? Every typology can be compared with every other typology, and there is always some kind of correlation between them. And if you know which correlations there are between two different typologies, and you also know that a certain person's view of him/herself is not in line with that correlation, you must reckon with the possibility that the person is mistyped in one or both of the two systems. That is not only a possibility, it might often be very likely that the person is mistyped.

It is totally out of the question that the same person could be, for example, an INTp in Socionics and an Enneagram type 2 or 3. You can not be a Two or a Three if you really are an INTp. Anyone who compares the type descriptions will realize that that should be impossible. If you ever meet someone who claims otherwise, you can be 100 % certain that that person has either misunderstood the typologies or his/her own nature.

I'm a little confused about what your point is, Phaedrus. Your words seem to suggest that there might be some "one true type" instead of each of these systems being merely classification systems.

Not "instead of". There is one "true" (correct) type for each person and each of the systems are merely classification systems. You can classify people in many different ways, but whatever system you decide to use, you have an essential, biological nature that is more or less accurately described in the system (the typology). Since you have the same essential nature you are the same type regardless of which typology you use to describe that nature. Your correct type can have different names in different systems, but it is still the same type, it is still the same structure of your brain that determines what that type is like. Different typologies focus on slightly different aspects of the same types, and they sometimes draw the lines between different groups of people differently. For example, in Socionics and MBTI we differentiate between ENTps and ENFps, but in the Enneagram the majority (or all) of them are put in together in type 7 (Seven).