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Thread: Official Book Thread

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    I do get bothered by the fact that you don't seem to listen when I give plausible reasons for being other types, but that just seems to only give you more justification for your type of me. I try and keep an open mind, listen to what you have to say, but you don't seem to be interested in having a rational discussion with me at all, especially since I have already asked to discuss it with you in private so that maybe we could come to some understanding.

    I received messages from the writer that there is some more editing to do.


    he forgot to insert one of the most spontaneous things he wrote ... a paragraph written in the peak of artistic inspiration after some complexes were accidentally hit by a fan.The paragraph was published too fast in a nervous reaction and he didn't even do any proofreading. Its place is before one of the last long epistolary insertions which alas! ..never got any response, so captivating and interesting they were.


    Check my subconscious? What a bunch of psychobabbling bullshit. The difference between you and I are likely due to your preference for making things personal, where I am trying to do the opposite. I am trying to be reasonable. I expect people to listen to reason. This is classic LII. I am also slightly more limbic than calm, according to SLOAN
    moreover, he forgot to include in the book the fact that he didn't get any response to this question
    No I really am not aware of having said anything offensive. what did I say?
    and then started harassing me with the "rational discussion" he had already asked for some time ago ..without any feedback, ofc.
    Last edited by Amber; 04-03-2015 at 09:25 PM.

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    The swerve and The artist philosopher and warrior

    @leckysupport
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  3. #163
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    ..

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    Sense and Sensibility

    by Jane Austin

    -- actually only browsing it, read it once already

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    man, Amber. You might have some very nuanced and correct opinions, but they're just not getting through.

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    How to Consider Yourself Far More Important Than You Are and Think Your Opinion Matters to Me by May Dallaway

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    everyone's got a little bit of that, right Amber? : )

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    How to Comment On a Forum Without Having Anything to Say by Lie May

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    So you expect me to have something to say then?

    I don't really expect to win against you, when people more knowledgeable than me have put you off their plate. But it's true, I don't have other things I'd just rather be doing now

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    How to Write Fiction about "Knowledgeable" People and Their "Plates" on a Forum and Hope Someone Gives a Damn by May Teddy

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    Quote Originally Posted by May View Post
    ..
    What's wrong?
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    It's true that I would like to hope that people would give a damn, in a general, universal sense. If not about me, then at least about something --buut it's still just not clear what you're trying to say.
    @Amber, Amber, Dalloway-Lie, Teddy (wow! so much! Not sure what it all means, though..!)

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    @Maritsa
    Just, generally, reading posts here makes me sad sometimes Maritsa

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    Machiavelli Unbound by Maya Angelou

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    Okay, can you elaborate on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by May View Post
    @Maritsa
    Just, generally, reading posts here makes me sad sometimes Maritsa
    I'm sorry May. How can we cheer you up?
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Haha, thanks Maritsa. Your post helped, of course. :)

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    "I do get bothered by the fact that you don't seem to listen when I give plausible reasons for being other types, but that just seems to only give you more justification for your type of me. I try and keep an open mind, listen to what you have to say, but you don't seem to be interested in having a rational discussion with me at all, especially since I have already asked to discuss it with you in private so that maybe we could come to some understanding."

    I received messages from the writer that there is some more editing to do.


    he forgot to insert one of the most spontaneous things he wrote ... a paragraph written in the peak of artistic inspiration after some complexes were accidentally hit by a fan.The paragraph was published too fast in a nervous reaction and he didn't even do any proofreading. Its place is before one of the last long epistolary insertions which alas! ..never got any response, so captivating and interesting they were.


    "Check my subconscious? What a bunch of psychobabbling bullshit. The difference between you and I are likely due to your preference for making things personal, where I am trying to do the opposite. I am trying to be reasonable. I expect people to listen to reason. This is classic LII. I am also slightly more limbic than calm, according to SLOAN"

    moreover, he forgot to include in the book the fact that he didn't get any response to this question
    "No I really am not aware of having said anything offensive. what did I say?"
    and then started harassing me with the "rational discussion" he had already asked for some time ago ..without any feedback, ofc.
    I have to point out here that this is factually incorrect. The entire conversation was copied and pasted in the order they were sent. I was concerned that I did make an error and accidentally omitted something. I double checked and could not find any omissions. If I really did omit something, I will gladly amend.

    I am done conversing directly with Amber for the time being. I tried to keep our discussion private to avoid what has just transpired, and to voice my criticisms of typology in the forum. Since many people are quite devoted and knowledgeable about Socionics, it's reasonable that I don't yet want to openly criticize it. I am not knowledgeable enough about it and do not feel confident enough to debate it in depth. Much of it does come down to epistemology and how do we know what the basic architecture of mind is. There is much I still do not know or understand. Ultimately, my skepticism begins with Jung, but my quest for understanding is endless. This is a passion of mine.

    Something I can honestly say bothers me, is when someone quotes what I state and weaves it into their own narrative. It is the bias being displayed that truly does bother me. This is why I posted the conversation, so there could be no doubt about what was actually said. The context is just as important as what was said. I have a whole host of my own personal biases that I try to discover and correct for, especially when approaching something like typology, which is difficult if not impossible to approach in an unbiased, scientific way. Consciousness is one of the few areas where science has had much trouble penetrating.

    One of the other things that bother me is when someone says they will be reasonable once I agree with them. I asked her to be reasonable and she said she will be reasonable once I accept that I was FiNe, or in other words, just accept that she is correct. What is reasonable about this?

    My conversation with Amber is part anecdotal, part criticism of typology, and a disagreement about my type. I often try to criticize typology by trying to argue what typology cannot tell us with any degree of certainty. That is my approach. But in her mind, everything I say is further evidence for what she has already concluded. This is a confirmation bias.

    Let me be clear that my conversation with Amber was not an attack on her. I apologized to her that I offended her. I made a joke a couple of months ago. I was poking fun of her and was not meant to be taken as derogatory. I thought I was being playful. It is just my humor. It is twisted, dark, and often taken out of context. It is probably disgusting to most people. I'm still sorry I offended her. She is stating that I have since said something that has offended her. I don't know what that is, so I can't address it.

    My approach is more impersonal that hers. The fact that she doesn't see that is another example of confirmation bias. During our conversation, my own writing style has shifted to distance myself from the personal. This is the general approach I take during conflicts. It is to become more rational and less personable. As long as there isn't any conflict, I can let my guard down and become personable again. I would expect that this alone is evidence toward my own preferences. But, pointing out everything personal I state and not mentioning all of the impersonal things I state, is a confirmation bias.

    I'm sorry I singled her out months ago. It was not fair. I think we are miscommunicating and our understanding of one another is limited, as is often the case online. I would just like to agree to disagree and move on from here.

    I am sorry to have moved this thread into the wrong direction. It should instead be filled with pages of interesting books.
    Important to note! People who share "indentical" socionics TIMs won't necessarily appear to be very similar, since they have have different backgrounds, experiences, capabilities, genetics, as well as different types in other typological systems (enneagram, instinctual variants, etc.) all of which also have a sway on compatibility and identification. Thus, Socionics type "identicals" won't necessarily be identical i.e. highly similar to each other, and not all people of "dual" types will seem interesting, attractive and appealing to each other.

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    Re: your behavior


    Originally Posted by Amber

    Originally Posted by Jimmers

    Originally Posted by Amber

    Originally Posted by Jimmers

    Originally Posted by Amber
    last evening you posted a few things that i probably attached the right meaning to.

    kindly stop.



    I'm really not sure what you are referring to.



    I am sorry. I must have fast-forwarded something automatically.
    a while ago Kim wrote me a PM to NF-inform me that mby I was needlessly harassing a person who was quite affected by some traumatic experiences (Suede). I eventually conceded to treat him as a human being and not only as a total jerk.



    oh, lol. I didn't know if I said something offensive or what the hell happened.

    cheers



    i think i'm clicking send for half messages in a hurry or smth.

    u did know u said smth. offensive (as a delta nf), but that was obviously a matter of deep feeling that u are free to indulge in. the point of my message was that you should probably stop ..especially since i don't recall having given u any concrete reasons to hate me or deeply dislike me and inform me of that in a compulsive way. i have already cut u from my "friends" list to let u know i'm fine with ur decision.



    No I really am not aware of having said anything offensive. what did I say?






    Re: your behavior


    Originally Posted by Amber

    Originally Posted by Jimmers

    Originally Posted by Amber

    Originally Posted by Jimmers

    Originally Posted by Amber
    last evening you posted a few things that i probably attached the right meaning to.

    kindly stop.



    I'm really not sure what you are referring to.



    I am sorry. I must have fast-forwarded something automatically.
    a while ago Kim wrote me a PM to NF-inform me that mby I was needlessly harassing a person who was quite affected by some traumatic experiences (Suede). I eventually conceded to treat him as a human being and not only as a total jerk.



    oh, lol. I didn't know if I said something offensive or what the hell happened.

    cheers



    i think i'm clicking send for half messages in a hurry or smth.

    u did know u said smth. offensive (as a delta nf), but that was obviously a matter of deep feeling that u are free to indulge in. the point of my message was that you should probably stop ..especially since i don't recall having given u any concrete reasons to hate me or deeply dislike me and inform me of that in a compulsive way. i have already cut u from my "friends" list to let u know i'm fine with ur decision.



    Amber, I really don't know what you are talking about here. I looked back at what I posted and I didn't see anything that was referring to you. Perhaps you misinterpreted? I don't know because you haven't told me what has offended you. I posted some songs and discussed Te vulnerable, but beyond that, I'm at a total loss here.

    While I don't think we were ever really friends to begin with, I don't hate or deeply dislike you. I do get bothered by the fact that you don't seem to listen when I give plausible reasons for being other types, but that just seems to only give you more justification for your type of me. I try and keep an open mind, listen to what you have to say, but you don't seem to be interested in having a rational discussion with me at all, especially since I have already asked to discuss it with you in private so that maybe we could come to some understanding.

    I'm not into social drama, so it is unlikely that I would post some passive aggressive statement in an attempt to offend you.

    Your email has unfortunately been helpful to me. Unfortunate in that you were offended, but helpful in that it has helped me come to understand that I am more likely to be merry vs serious.

    You don't have to respond you if don't like, but I would appreciate it if you would.

    03-28-201510:14 AM



    10:14 AM




    Beyond the factually incorrect information in the previous message presented by the famous writer in question, I think many things are coherent, consistent, and clear now. I accept his apologies and I think the "offense" can be left behind now. I do agree however that we are done conversing about his type. I hope he can find his peace of mind and inner harmony and he will no longer dream of being "pigeonholed" by me.

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    rereading






    Young Winterbourne, supposedly a student, is a dude through whose eyes ppl become familiar with the clash between two cultures: American and European. In the foreground you get the story of his extraordinarily ambiguous romance with Daisy, a young American girl he meets in Geneva. Winterbourne is both confused and fascinated by her youthful and nonchalant flirtatiousness which ignores all social conventions. We are supposed to try to discover Daisy’s real character beyond the young American’s puzzlement when faced with her easy-going, but also suave nature. This is supposed to be fun.
    Winterbourne is initially a bit thrown-off by Daisy’s "shameless" ways and her openness, falling prey to the suspicion of other Americans concerning her behavior. They meet several times, some of them by chance, and, while the man is quite drawn to Daisy, he cannot easily comprehend her personality and her intentions and this prevents their romance from setting off in a concrete and satisfactory form. Their encounter in Italy is accompanied by rumors of an affair Daisy may have been having with another man, Giovanelli. Winterbourne sees them together at the Colosseum and acts out in a fit of outrage at the danger the two were exposing themselves to (which of course doesn't hide his jealousy and his bewilderment at Daisy’s ways). His worry was well founded, since that was the place where people most risked catching “the Roman fever”. Daisy defies this danger in her well-known manner, just as she defies social convention: she tell him she doesn’t care. However Daisy falls ill shortly later, leaving Winterbourne more confused than ever regarding her feelings for him as well as the nature of her relationship with the Italian man.
    Before dying Daisy sends someone to transmit a message to him: she has never been engaged to Giovanelli. The novella revels in a veeery intense sense of mystery. However the ending urges us to suspect that Daisy’s character was far more innocent than she let on and her feelings for Winterbourne a bit stronger.
    Behind this short, simple, and ironic romantic story lie faaar more serious issues: the tension between two cultures that Henry James explores in numerous aspects, from banal stereotypes or differences in social conventions to more complex issues related to imagology (aka the study of a culture’s image of another). This cultural tension is intensified by the conflict between traditional values and unconcerned independence&individualism – ofc the former still rule American society, while the latter are embodied by Daisy’s free-spirited personality.
    Last edited by Amber; 04-19-2015 at 07:32 PM.

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    Finished:
    The Glass Bead Game; Herman Hesse
    The Handmaid's Tale; Margaret Atwood

    Reading:
    Nations and Nationalism since 1780; Eric Hobsbawm

    Soon:
    The Story of O; Anne Desclos
    The Second Sex; Simone de Beauvoir

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    by that Ne model:


    - finished: Pierre Bourdieu - Masculine Domination

    http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/sof/sum.../81.1hull.html



    - reading: the remote cloud traces in the subtly teal sky that resemble the handprints of Prokofiev



    - waiting on my laptop in adobe digital: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values by Robert M. Pirsig

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and...le_Maintenance
    Last edited by Amber; 05-06-2015 at 10:48 AM.

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    Important to note! People who share "indentical" socionics TIMs won't necessarily appear to be very similar, since they have have different backgrounds, experiences, capabilities, genetics, as well as different types in other typological systems (enneagram, instinctual variants, etc.) all of which also have a sway on compatibility and identification. Thus, Socionics type "identicals" won't necessarily be identical i.e. highly similar to each other, and not all people of "dual" types will seem interesting, attractive and appealing to each other.

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    I just finished Station Eleven. It was amazing!!!! READ IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Everything interests me but nothing holds me.

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    I just finished The Stary Rift by James Tiptree Jr. It was a book gilly sent me that I never read. It actually really grabbed me, and I just saw that it's set in her wider universe and it makes me happy. There was something really special/human about it, once I had gotten to the end.

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    The Girl on the Train by Paula Hawkins

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    ...was looking at Subteigh's canon of humanity thread and pulled out my copy of Lucretius' The Nature of Things.

    The introduction touched on the greek achievement of separation or differentiation: of fact from fiction, history from myth and so on. In this manner, physical objects can be investigated. Given the fact that all physical objects must obey their respective laws, Epicurus expands that some moral truths must follow. All beings must pursue their own pleasure. And beyond base pleasures exist the more abstract and austere ones of friendship and philosophical contemplation. Death loses some of its meaning as it is only a cessation of one's physical processes.

    It seems like all of this is dependent on one's conception of differentiation however. Any thoughts...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by May View Post
    ...was looking at Subteigh's canon of humanity thread and pulled out my copy of Lucretius' The Nature of Things.

    The introduction touched on the greek achievement of separation or differentiation: of fact from fiction, history from myth and so on. In this manner, physical objects can be investigated. Given the fact that all physical objects must obey their respective laws, Epicurus expands that some moral truths must follow. All beings must pursue their own pleasure. And beyond base pleasures exist the more abstract and austere ones of friendship and philosophical contemplation. Death loses some of its meaning as it is only a cessation of one's physical processes.

    It seems like all of this is dependent on one's conception of differentiation however. Any thoughts...?

    I don't know what differentiation is. Is it differentiation from an atom, or some indivisible unit?

    I love the atomists. They seem the only sensible philosophers to me. Epicureanism is a good philosophy to live by.
    Important to note! People who share "indentical" socionics TIMs won't necessarily appear to be very similar, since they have have different backgrounds, experiences, capabilities, genetics, as well as different types in other typological systems (enneagram, instinctual variants, etc.) all of which also have a sway on compatibility and identification. Thus, Socionics type "identicals" won't necessarily be identical i.e. highly similar to each other, and not all people of "dual" types will seem interesting, attractive and appealing to each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TJay View Post
    I don't know what differentiation is. Is it differentiation from an atom, or some indivisible unit?

    I love the atomists. They seem the only sensible philosophers to me. Epicureanism is a good philosophy to live by.
    Yes, I think so? Expanding from separating fact from fiction, to separating thought from phenomenon, to separating unit from unit.
    I'm not sure about Epicureanism yet, but I do like the cover of this book a lot, hah.

    I think there's something natural about the pursuit of pleasure in this sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by May View Post
    Yes, I think so? Expanding from separating fact from fiction, to separating thought from phenomenon, to separating unit from unit.
    I'm not sure about Epicureanism yet, but I do like the cover of this book a lot, hah.

    I think there's something natural about the pursuit of pleasure in this sense.
    lol, never underestimate the lure of a good book cover.

    Pleasure seeking is very natural. I tend toward a kind of light hedonism myself. I don't like to harm my body or anyone else, but I do like many sensual pleasures. It makes life enjoyable
    Important to note! People who share "indentical" socionics TIMs won't necessarily appear to be very similar, since they have have different backgrounds, experiences, capabilities, genetics, as well as different types in other typological systems (enneagram, instinctual variants, etc.) all of which also have a sway on compatibility and identification. Thus, Socionics type "identicals" won't necessarily be identical i.e. highly similar to each other, and not all people of "dual" types will seem interesting, attractive and appealing to each other.

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    Creepy-bg

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    The Shadow Out of Time

    H.P. Lovecraft

    https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/l/lov...dow/index.html

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

  34. #194

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    Started Broken House (short story) by Gillian Flynn... things she writes are interesting and they manage to make me laugh (it's really a special sense of humour).
    Last edited by Moonbeaux Rainfox; 11-07-2015 at 05:49 PM.

  35. #195
    Creepy-bg

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    Dune.

  36. #196
    squirreltual's Avatar
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    Kiss of the Spider Woman - Manuel Puig.

    Love, fear, politics, Latin America. Written in purely in dialogue format with streams of consciousness. Good stuff.

  37. #197

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    Maybe. Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View, Stanley Milgram.

  38. #198
    Creepy-bg

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    I read Shit My Dad Says after Dune. It was better than I expected, had feels.

    reading the 2nd Dune book now.

  39. #199
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    Ivan Yefremov "The Bull's Hour"

  40. #200
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bg View Post
    Dune.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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