"You cannot be anything that you point to." - Mooji
"You cannot be anything that you point to." - Mooji
I cannot be a penis.
IEE-Ne
Is this going to start getting into philosophy and such? If so, I can see it getting messy...
From my laymans point of view the issue seems to be around the semantics of 'you' and 'I', I would think that James' distinction of the existential and catagorical selves could be useful.
Perhaps it could be clarified "The existential self cannot be anything that is pointed to."
IEE-Ne
The question isn't whether or not something is a delusion or a illusion, but what that delusion or illusion tells us about "being".
This delusion applies to far more then merely typology, it is a pervasive illusion.
We do not and perhaps cannot know absolute reality, but that doesn't mean our delusions are empty.Originally Posted by Einstein
Socionics would view the conscious mind as a mechanism that process a portion of the available information(via avaliable senses/processing units, possibly aided by tools), and thru specialization via information preference forms a picture of the world. So socionics is like a picture of a picture of (likely just another picture), who knows when the pictures end and absolute reality begins. And frankly, people generally just give up and just believe in God or the Universe or some other such convenience. However, for those of a curious mindset, that picture of a picture of a picture of probably pictures is interesting and fun and might even provide a advantage in the games which we play in life.
Perfect.
A citation would be helpful. In the meantime there's this, which I'm guessing is in the same spirit:
So, predicated on the assumption that a self and one or more non-selves exists, the existential and categorical selves can be broadly described as identificatory attachments to mental constructs arising from persistent belief in phenomenal object-subject relations.Originally Posted by http://www.simplypsychology.org/self-concept.html
I'd argue the truth of this statement by leaning on Uncle Herc once again, who said "You cannot step into the same river twice, young homie, for the waters are ever flowing on." So if one were to point to oneself to convey "This is me", that action would spur an accretion of perceptions begetting memories and thoughts, and the self who indicated itself would have changed before the gesture was completed.
Secondly, if we accept that we cannot perceive, rationalize, or communicate perfectly, and if we accept that the existential self arises from the mind as a result of phenomenal events, then we can see that this existential self is but a nonequivalent representation of the objective self. And so we cannot point to this simulacrum of the self and rightfully say that it is what we are.
Good post. We are sort of agreeing for once. My Uncle Al (Watts) says organisms are how the universe experiences itself. It enjoys a game in which it forgets who it is for a while and plays hide-and-seek with itself. So socionics as a study of perception and consciousness is one instrument to understand that game.
Navel gazers
(irony intended)
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Under orders from the comedian Schopenhauer, I recently began easing myself into the hindoo hottub of advaita vedanta, or nondualist humbug. Finding something amusing about this snippet from Mooji, I thought it worthwhile to have a little fun with the ideas attending it. Bite me.
*points at head*
As far as I can tell, most of it happens here.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Oh I hate this, I like getting involved but I know I'm going to get lost in concepts that I struggle to grasp.
Yes it is.
Well I hope I have understood you, so I'd like to paraphrase? You are working from the assumption that there is one actual "core" self, then the existential and catagorical selves can be described as these reflective mental constructs, seperate from a true experiential self?
If this is the case, I would view the self in terms of the whole organism, this extends beyond a narrow definition of the immediate expereintial self, but would include all cognitive and sensory processes, including abstract catagorisations and associations and a constructed identities as well as immediate perceptual experience.
Yes this is interesting, I have for some considered the idea of a static centred self as illusory. In fact it could be argued that a static self is a convenient social construction. It reminds me of this... (wait til about 1 minute)
IEE-Ne
It is the same as, standing in a garage doesn't make one a car.
You can't view the self in a form of entire organism for the self or something is intangible whereas an organism is tangible. That is, the self is not real, ye Sunday philosophers.
Last edited by Absurd; 09-04-2012 at 05:47 PM.
Sure, you make a point
A bike isn't a living organism, though, it is inanimate matter. Take oxygen for example which is inanimate matter as well - oxygen enters your lungs and then your bloodstream, travels to cells, and so on. Point I am making is, oxygen doesn't carry a vital force and inanimate materials that make up your body have no special quality of life about them in themselves.
What we're speaking about here is a soul, stricte metaphysically. And that frog can be replaced by that monster Frankenstein put together and gave it life.
Oh on somewhat unrelated note, there were experiments done on dogs in SU/Africa that brought back to life dead dogs. I mean dogs with their heads severed off and sewn on again.
You believe in a soul, lecky?
Last edited by Absurd; 09-04-2012 at 06:20 PM.
I don't understand your point.
A large part of what makes an organism an organism is life, and the thing which is "life" extends past the tangible and into the realm of the intangible. The self has a similar pattern, the brain (tangible) giving rise to the self (intangible).
ἀταραξία
Alright, I'll ride on your bike/frog analogy again. Like your common frog, Earth is an organism too, the entire organism, the whole organism, and like your common bike it is composed of parts/organs such as various races and nations of men and where one of these is permitted to remain disaffected, Earth itself is threatened with death. In other words, you, me, this board is/are composed in a way that you cannot function efficiently without the alignment of each and every part and organ of your anatomy.
As for life, you seem to be one dodging questions organism. Anyhow, that's what I said but in a different way.
I have heard about that in brief somewhere, not really in that package, as in Carl Rogers and the organismic self package but taking into account what I have heard you're talking about the false ego, Id (Self), and lack of organic "I."
Want to warn as well, I'm not that far into concepts but here goes something - the false ego, that is, the persona, is in a perpetual attempt to escape the "self," but the self it is fleeing from is wholly unknown. Additionally, the ego tries to "find itself." It imagines it has become the "new you" constructing a new act, an act that you never know you're faking until the "new you" realizes it and replaces it with another act.
It is somewhat common on this board not to mention Identification which is completely out of bounds in here, that is, you get people that actually do this en masse.
Read my books...
Oh and I'm really sorry I didn't refer to Jung this time, ahem, but knowing both Jung and Freud well, I can only say the former is quite the bride when it comes to things some of you disagree with and condemn, so it is Freud this time
Last edited by Absurd; 09-04-2012 at 08:11 PM.
There is nothing wrong with an identity, as long as you do not truly identify yourself with it.
I think socionics is "inter-subjective" and "hetero-phenomonal" and avoids many of the pitfalls of identity and identification.
This is because it is subjectivity with a third person(s), i.e the socio part of socionics.
So socionics is not merely typology, the categorization of "narrative" cognitive processes(call it monologue) but also the assessment of dialogue between "narrative" cognitive processes and the assessment of these systems in relation to one another.
I don't think of socionics as a typology, I would say it has determined identity to only be a emergent differentiation of the mind and not a "first cause" so to speak. I would be very hesitant to look at a typology that view it's types as the base causal mechanism, it's like a persistent weather front, eye of jupiter thing. One's mental life could be viewed as a gathering storm and its output the precipitation of that storm, and death the end of that storm.
So go make it rain...
Spade is a spade to me and I'm not talking about sociotype, and I'm not raging against socionics, do not see a point in that in the first place. To me, it is the same, people who are against and people who are for, same boat, different opinion but still same boat. If it wasn't some other scenario, those people wouldn't be even here and just said "meh", and left. So they're a part of the whole to me, a cog, thinking they're going to tinker with it and it is going to sink. Well, true believers just tighten the screws seeing that and balance is achieved. So you all can rage all you want, for and against, for you all are wearing shackles that you put on yourself willingly and enjoy it.
For example:
Subject A: Socionics is bullshit,
Subject B: Socionics is real,
A+B = Socionics.
Classic push and pull.
Last edited by Absurd; 09-04-2012 at 09:57 PM.
We're going to make millions, hkkmr. I mean you're going to make millions. It's cool you see the potential in it. I, for one, find it, I don't know, funny at times, not in a bad way, but forum-way so to speak.
I think anyone can make millions if they can understand how to process information preference data into a tangible technological form. This is something that is of a very lucrative sector of technology at the moment. You can even make millions simply by gathering data and selling anonymous/non-anonymous data to other processors.
Check this out:
THE ORGANISM ITSELF AS THE EMERGENT MEANING
I anticipate that biology will go through a transforming revelation/revolution that is like the revolution that happened in physics with the development of quantum mechanics nearly 100 years ago. In biology this will involve the realisation that to make sense of the complexity of gene activity in development, the prevailing model of local mechanical causality will have to be abandoned. In its place we will have a model of interactive relationships within gene transcription networks that is like the pattern of interactions between words in a language, where ambiguity is essential to the creation of emergent meaning that is sensitive to cultural history and to context. The organism itself is the emergent meaning of the developmental process as embodied form, sensitive to both historical constraint within the genome and to environmental context, as we see in the adaptive creativity of evolution. What contemporary studies have revealed is that genes are not independent units of information that can be transferred between organisms to alter phenotypes, but elements of complex networks that act together in a morphogenetic process that produces coherent form and function as embodied meaning.
A major consequence that I see of this revelation in biology is the realisation that the separation we have made between human creativity as expressed in culture, and natural creativity as expressed in evolution, is mistaken. The two are much more deeply related than we have previously recognised. That humans are embedded in and dependent on nature is something that no-one can deny. This has become dramatically evident recently as our economic system has collapsed, along with the collapse of many crucial ecosystems, due to our failure to integrate human economic activity as a sustainable part of Gaian regulatory networks. We now face dramatic changes in the climate that require equally dramatic changes in our technologies connected with energy generation, farming, travel, and human life-style in general.
On the other hand, the recognition that culture is embedded in nature is not so evident but will, I believe, emerge as part of the biological revelation/revolution. Biologists will realise that all life, from bacteria to humans, involves a creative process that is grounded in natural languages as the foundation of their capacity for self-generation and continuous adaptive transformation. The complexity of the molecular networks regulating gene activity in organisms reveals a structure and a dynamic that has the self-similar characteristics and long-range order of languages. The coherent form of an organism emerges during its development as the embodied meaning of the historical genetic text, created through the process of resolving ambiguity and multiple possibilities of form into appropriate functional order that reflects sensitivity to context. Such use of language in all its manifestations in the arts and the sciences is the essence of cultural creativity.
In conclusion, I see the deep conceptual changes that are currently happening in biology as a prelude and accompaniment to the cultural changes that are occurring in culture, facilitating these and ushering in a new age of sustainable living on the planet.
BRIAN GOODWIN
Biologist, Schumacher College, Devon, UK; Author, How The Leopard Changed Its Spots
http://www.edge.org/q2009/q09_4.html#goodwin