Empathy makes the world go round

**Pookie** · 06-21-2012, 10:28 PM

I agree with Ashton.

I would go so far as to say that if "good manners are the most important thing a parent can teach their child", those parents probably lack empathy to a hefty degree, seeing as their top priority is superficial and placed above more empathetic values like compassion, love or charity.

**ArchonAlarion** · 06-21-2012, 10:38 PM

18

Some of the questions were worded so awkwardly "I don't tend to find social situations confusing" and " I don't consciously work out the rules of social situations."

Overall, I didn't like the test due to the wording. I feel a bit in the fog about how I should react and play social situations, but I "know" what's going on... the test was spread too thin over too many types of empathy imo. I have higher empathy than some fool who thinks they know other people like the back of the hands. I leave a lot up to uncertainty despite a pretty acute awareness of how my intimates will act and and what their priorities are.

**jessica129** · 06-21-2012, 11:43 PM

Do ppl with aspergers know they have aspergers or is it like an insane person not knowing they're insane?

**Gilly** · 06-22-2012, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by Ashton

My take on it, is that 'manners' are more often socially inculcated customs engaged in out of habit, rather than out of genuine empathic awareness per se.

Consider that manners are usually very cultural specific—e.g., the manners recognized by a New Guinea tribesman are going to be different from those recognized by an American living in upstate New York. I'd tend to argue that heavy conditioning in manners often becomes occlusive to empathy, where those who don't follow the manners of a given society get deemed savage, ignorant, or 'weird'. At this point, one isn't empathizing with an individual, so much as they are merely identifying with a social structure—some set of implicitly codified signs, symbols, and rules of interpersonal etiquette that exist in the given time and place of one's societal upbringing.

If you've ever watched the show Downton Abbey, it's a great illustration of this. You have these exquisitely refined aristocrats who are so conditioned in the manners and mores of their own social context, that they have little to no empathic understanding of the behaviors and attitudes of people who live outside of that bubble.

Don't get me wrong, I do think some manners are valuable and serve a good purpose—such as, don't chew with your mouth open, use your blinker when you change lanes, practice regular personal hygiene, say thank you, etc. But then you get some people who will be morbidly offended if you put your elbows on the table while eating. I don't mind trying to be respectful and displaying the manners a given person or group expects to see, but I wouldn't perceive their being offended about a lack thereof to be very indicative of empathy on their end.

And I certainly wouldn't consider an attitude of "I think that good manners are the most important thing a parent can teach their child" to be very empathic. I mean fuck, I don't want to raise a troglodyte by any means, but I wouldn't consider "manners" to be a supreme priority in child-rearing. If you're raising a kid, shouldn't you try to understand what their unique personal needs are first, and allow those to be your priorities rather than imposing what you think they ought to be like as a person? I would think that would be the more empathic approach… I'd also figure that qualities like self-actualization, developing critical-thinking skills, etc. might be a bit more important than simply molding a socially well-mannered cog.

I see where you're coming from, but the thing is, if people didn't treat each other with respect, there would be so much more useless violence and petty squabbles over irrelevant bullshit, because people get offended easily about some things, and shit escalates easily with certain types of people, and if there wasn't a defined medium within which we interact, which you almost certainly conform to on a totally subconscious level even if you are the kind of person who makes "social missteps" more often, then people would be more likely to die/get injured/have their lives ruined because of stupid shit. It's just a general level of respect that everyone has to show, whether you say "please" and "thank you" every time or not.

**Gilly** · 06-22-2012, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by anndelise

Oh, you mean losing sense of self, supplanting personal values/interests for those of others, etc.

Yeah, I think that does actually have a lot to do with empathy and trust, which are inextricably connected; I'm confused why you don't, and if you have ever truly experienced what that feels like.

**anndelise** · 06-22-2012, 04:12 AM

Originally Posted by Gilly

Yeah, I think that does actually have a lot to do with empathy and trust, which are inextricably connected; I'm confused why you don't, and if you have ever truly experienced what that feels like.

I would never want to become "one" with another person to the point that 'I' no longer exist.
I do not see that as empathy, as it's kind of a one way thing. My sense of self lost...to feed their ego? No!
And yes, you could say that together you two create something more. Fine, go for it if that is what you both desire. I, personally, don't.

My emotions are My emotions. Your emotions are Yours.
My interests are My interests. Your interests are Yours.
We can meet in the middle and share.
But I will Not give up mine to support yours.
And there's no way in hell I'd allow you to give up yours to support mine.
I can step into your shoes, see the world through your eyes for a bit.
But I have absolutely no interest in staying there, and I will inevitably return to my own shoes (preferably a little wiser).

(unfortunately though, this particular part of trying to see through someone's eyes...when they want that melding...I cannot...will not...fear to...even try those shoes on.)

**Absurd** · 06-22-2012, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by jessica129

Do ppl with aspergers know they have aspergers or is it like an insane person not knowing they're insane?

They don't, not after being diagnosed with Aspergers, that is. They can check and think they are, but it is diagnosis that rules supreme. The same way you can check whether you're a psychopath and think you are, but again, it is the diagnosis of labcoats that rules supreme.

Originally Posted by Ashton

Don't get me wrong, I do think some manners are valuable and serve a good purpose—such as, don't chew with your mouth open, use your blinker when you change lanes, practice regular personal hygiene, say thank you, etc. But then you get some people who will be morbidly offended if you put your elbows on the table while eating. I don't mind trying to be respectful and displaying the manners a given person or group expects to see, but I wouldn't perceive their being offended about a lack thereof to be very indicative of empathy on their end.

Don't chew with my mouth open, I use the blinker when changing lanes, etc. I've seen plenty people who don't. I think they have Aspergers. Cough. Manners do not have anything to do with empathy or lack thereof, it's just following established objective laws that require you to use the blinker when changing lanes so the other guy, in the other lane, driving a tank seeing you're changing lanes won't think you're aiming a NAMICA launcher at him and drives over you.

Thing with low empathy is a person has a bit of a trouble connecting emotionally with certain individuals and yes, it has to do with lack of trust in others. Personally, having established any kind of emotional connection with a person, I keep it this way, and that requires trusting them in the first place. When there is no trust anymore or never has been, there's no emotional connection at all.

Creepy-bg · 06-22-2012, 08:43 AM

43

**Simon Ssmall** · 06-22-2012, 09:49 AM

Your score: 65

**redbaron** · 06-22-2012, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Simon Ssmall

Your score: 65

wow that's really high.

**Simon Ssmall** · 06-22-2012, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by redbaron

wow that's really high.

Slacker scored the same amount also

**redbaron** · 06-22-2012, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by Simon Ssmall

Slacker scored the same amount also

oh I missed that! ENFps for the win I guess!

**mu4** · 06-22-2012, 04:05 PM

20

I would say I'm fairly perceptive at picking up on things, I just tend to bulldoze over them.

**Simon Ssmall** · 06-22-2012, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by hkkmr

20

I would say I'm fairly perceptive at picking up on things, I just tend to bulldoze over them.

And what is the purpose of using such heavy machinery?

**Park** · 06-22-2012, 06:52 PM

21

**mu4** · 06-22-2012, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by Simon Ssmall

And what is the purpose of using such heavy machinery?

I'm not sure if there is a reason outside of harming people and outside punishment to not do what you want to do. There is a level of friction and probably necessary friction that I see as inevitable in social interaction. Also some people like you the way you are and you can generally act exactly the way you want to be around them without a huge issue.

Anyways, as I've gotten older, I've used my apparent ignorance of social expectations and apparent lack of social skills to help me in many ways. I don't really need to navigate sensitive social situations too much, I have other people to do it for me most of the time who are more than willing. There are a lot of people who will like you for the person you are especially if you're a generally decent individual who isn't out to harm others.

I find that a soft touch is a nice tool to have in one's arsenal, but it doesn't mean I have to be the one to do it and that I'm better off just being myself.

**mu4** · 06-22-2012, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Shayley

It's just another test with faults. You could try this short & simple empathy test which is a little more focused and it might make you feel a bit better with the results:

http://www.noanxiety.com/tests/empathy-test.html

Empathy test result

Your empathy level is 66%

High empathy level. This means that you understand how other people feel in most cases. So you share their emotions and feelings. Write us if you enjoyed this test.

This was my result on the other test.

**anndelise** · 06-22-2012, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Shayley

It's just another test with faults. You could try this short & simple empathy test which is a little more focused and it might make you feel a bit better with the results:

http://www.noanxiety.com/tests/empathy-test.html

66%

**Gilly** · 06-22-2012, 09:41 PM

Empathy test result

Your empathy level is 82%

Excessive empathy. This means that you are too much empathic. Sometimes you probably go too far as regards how other people feel and you project on them feelings and emotions that they don't feel in such an intense way. But you can understand emotions and share them with other people. Just be careful not to give importance to something which is actually not important.

*blush*

**Park** · 06-22-2012, 10:01 PM

62%

**Radio** · 06-22-2012, 10:15 PM

@Shayley's test:

Your empathy level is 70%

High empathy level. This means that you understand how other people feel in most cases. So you share their emotions and feelings. Write us if you enjoyed this test.

**JRiddy** · 06-22-2012, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by Ashton

Go figure that an E3 would believe that mirroring current trends and fashions is related to practicing empathy

Go figure than an E8 would think manners are for lesser mortals

**FoxOnStilts** · 06-22-2012, 10:26 PM

"I am at my best first thing in the morning"

DOES THAT ADD TO MY EMPATHY OR DETRACT??

Anyway, I always get terrible results on these tests. So dumb. I don't think I'm terribly maladjusted. But I got a 9.

**jessica129** · 06-22-2012, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Shayley

It's just another test with faults. You could try this short & simple empathy test which is a little more focused and it might make you feel a bit better with the results:

http://www.noanxiety.com/tests/empathy-test.html

I still get like a 30. It's odd because sometimes I feel like I feel more than the average person....or it's like I'll care a lot about the wrong people and not at all about starving children or something. My self awareness sux.

**Roro** · 06-22-2012, 10:44 PM

26 for me.

Creepy-bg · 06-22-2012, 10:47 PM

2nd test...

Your empathy level is 72%

High empathy level. This means that you understand how other people feel in most cases. So you share their emotions and feelings.

**Absurd** · 06-22-2012, 10:55 PM

Your empathy level is 51% Average empathy level. This means you are quite empathic, even if you don't always understand how other people feel. Write us if you enjoyed this test.

Now, that's better. Hah.

**Raver** · 06-23-2012, 10:36 AM

2nd Test:

Your empathy level is 70%

High empathy level. This means that you understand how other people feel in most cases. So you share their emotions and feelings. Write us if you enjoyed this test.

Personally, I don't think these tests mean much because their accuracy is limited to an individual's self awareness. One can get a good idea of a forum member's true empathy level by how they treat other forum members anyways.

**Simon Ssmall** · 06-23-2012, 11:28 AM

Empathy test result
Your empathy level is 86%

Excessive empathy. This means that you are too much empathic. Sometimes you probably go too far as regards how other people feel and you project on them feelings and emotions that they don't feel in such an intense way. But you can understand emotions and share them with other people. Just be careful not to give importance to something which is actually not important.

**Gilly** · 06-23-2012, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Ashton

Go figure that an E3 would believe that mirroring current trends and fashions is related to practicing empathy

It's not even something I do. I pretty much dress in comfortable, black clothes, which are usually worn multiple times between washes, and range from gym shorts to black jeans. Most of my shirts are plain single-color t-shirts. This has been true most of my life.

However I also grew up in a very conformist, New England preppy culture, and I understand what it feels like to "fit in," because I kind of had to do it. And while I kind of resented it overall, I could see why people do it...it DOES feel good to fit in. It's kind of shallow, but it's also very real at the same time. It's like for guys, how even if we know a pair of tits is fake, we still can't help but oggle them. However to me its boring, and it feels like a violation of my free will on some very intrinsic level, so I don't waste the energy.

**Gilly** · 06-24-2012, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Ashton

Treating others respectfully is def. worth striving for. But I believe there's a lot to be said for the fact that in actual practice, this 'defined medium' of interpersonal conduct isn't exactly as defined as it might sound, since in everyday life you're dealing with many different kinds of people with varying standards in their heads as to what they consider to be 'respectful'.

Believe me I know, I have shittons of Indian customers, and if I hadn't had anger management in rehab I would have punched one of them by now for being insolent, greedy cunts.

Edit: I will say I admire them for their competitive spirit, but some of them take it too seriously/too far and it makes me get all hot.

Sure, there are prevailing norms that can be reasonably anticipated which most people in a given society more or less abide by.

Like treating each other with respect...I think that's mostly universal. Sure definitions of respect vary, but generally we should treat others in accordance with the implicit knowledge that we cooperate willingly together, the only alternative being that we loot and rob each other and rape each other's wives and pee on each others lawns and fight over it. This is taken too much for granted by people who do not know what it's like to have their life or well-being threatened, who don't understand how close what many of us would see as a petty personal conflict is, in the animal kingdom, to one person going home that night and the other not.

But there's a lot of other shit that people can be prone to getting offended and fussy over, to a point that accommodating their standards would infringe on your own authenticity and personal integrity. What do you do when you're dealing with someone who, say, considers public displays of affection to be disrespectful, or believes it's wrong to question authority, or that same-sex marriage is immoral and against God, or merely decides they are personally offended by your choice of wardrobe? It obviously isn't difficult to make the case that many untold millions of lives have been harmed—physically and/or psychologically—by others attempting to uphold (or outright impose) what they see as 'correct' manners and social mores.

I think there is a level of standard respect that people HAVE to show each other, because our interactions should reflect the fact that we as humans are held by each other willingly in a contract of cooperation, whether we know it or not. And if you say "I am not willing, this is all some hokum forced on me by Thomas Hobbes and the socialists," well, try living on the other side for a while, see how you feel about life. I have. And I came crawling back, because I saw the world as it was before there was such a thing as "humanity." Petty ego battles ending in death, random injustice done for profit on a whim, unbridled vengeance; lives ruled by fear, and the ceaseless multitude of counterproductive actions that invariably spring from uncertainty and descent by perceived necessity into the pit of our basest survival instincts.

Most of the shit people get fussy over has nothing to do with this; it's over the inflection in your voice, or some petty cultural difference. These are nothing; they have less to do with respect and more to do with customs. These have nothing to do with the lowest common denominator of humane respect between sentient beings; global cultural integration will most likely do away with most of these in the next 100 years or so.

**Gilly** · 06-24-2012, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Ashton

Lol, I was just kidding with you about the E3 thing.

Lol I know, it's all good. It's kind of true though, but in a more roundabout way; the only way I ever learned WHY it is that so many people adhere to fashions and such is that I had the chance to be a part of it for a while, and most likely due to my E3ness I took a shot at "fitting in" (which I had never been able to do before). It was an interesting experiment, I can't deny it helped me slightly understand hordes of people whom I had previously decried as vain sheep.

Yeah, I can understand that re: clothes/apparel. I do like to look 'normal' on the outside, so I never went for an eccentric look… though I think for me it's more about blending in rather than fitting in, because I already know I'm not going to fit in once I open my mouth. Plus my clothing tastes are fairly conventional anyway I think, so it isn't hard.

Yeah. I think, as in your scenario, a certain fashion or style becomes "standard" for people, like they do it just to get it out of the way, and they simply don't question it. That is one variant; another variant is what I describe below. And then there are the people behind it all, the ones who ACTIVELY try to flaunt their status or sense of fashion or whatever with their choice of clothes. so-primary 3s...*grabs knife*

Looking at tits is a violation of free will? Er, what.

Lol I know it was kind of an awkward comparison. What I meant was that, for people who are used to the good feeling of "being in the in-crowd" for their whole lives, dressing to conform is a bit like looking at tits: they can't really help it, it becomes an instinct or impulse that serves their need to maintain that feeling of being accepted. Not as deeply instinctive as looking at tits, I guess, but it's the same kind of "invisible hand" effect. Same thing as people who are psychologically dependent on drugs. It gets a good feeling, so the question of not doing it becomes eliminated from the mind, and they become conditioned into the good feeling, so instead of doing it being good, not doing it becomes bad.

**FDG** · 06-24-2012, 03:00 PM

43...but mostly because I'm really good at including people in social situations, I believe those questions amped up my score quite a lot.

**Absurd** · 06-24-2012, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by FDG

43...but mostly because I'm really good at including people in social situations[...]

Like parties and overall mood stuff?

**FDG** · 06-24-2012, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Absurd

Like parties and overall mood stuff?

More like parties. You know, sharing beer or grappa.

**JRiddy** · 06-24-2012, 08:24 PM

http://www.noanxiety.com/tests/empathy-test.html - 66% (medium-high)

Although I didn't score that high on that test, I tend to think of myself as fairly empathetic, if a bit detached from it. But I attribute a lot of positive things in my life to empathy, or at least to the ability to put myself in someone else's shoes.

I'm pretty sure I've managed to keep the job I have because of empathy, which in my field (software) is in limited supply. I once overheard my boss in a discussion with his boss suggesting that I'm worth keeping on board just because I make the other programmers easier to deal with. At the time, I was struggling to complete my duties, so this was a huge relief. And I don't even think of myself as all that naturally empathetic a person; I just try to be polite and respectful and think about how others are going to perceive things. Occasionally I ask people about their kids and shit, and I send cards to people when they are in the hospital. And I don't even do it because I care all that much--it's almost a rote recitation of behaviors I was taught growing up--but it's paid off enormously.

So yes, manners and customs can be disingenuous, and they are just social constructs, but they can act as habits that make other people feel welcome even when you're not trying. And when you are trying, it seems like you're going the extra mile to be considerate.

**Gilly** · 06-25-2012, 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by Ashton

Lol like I edited, I actually kind of admire their spirit, but some of them take it too far

I dunno man, you make it sound so drastic and polarizing that I have to wonder how emotionally/psychologically invested you are in these outlooks—and more interestingly, why? Unless you're just having fun sounding epic, I know I do that sometimes.

No, I really do think it's that important.

I'm pretty sure that many alternatives and shades of grey exist between extremes of willful cooperation vs. life as the Thunderdome.

Yeah, and we live in one of those shades. Civility is one of its contingencies, and not for no reason.

Yes, it's certainly true that no human can exist as a self-sufficient island cutoff from others, given the division of labor in any complex society—e.g., any economic transaction is an act of cooperation. But there's a still a broad range of individual selectivity insofar as who we decide to cooperate with, who we don't, what the terms of cooperation will be, what they won't, etc. And life is diverse enough that you can safely disregard a large number of people with little to no consequence to yourself. I typically cooperate out of self-interest in recognizing that there are certain synergistic benefits in doing so—not because of some existential notion of social contract filling me with pangs of dread that they're gonna come down on me like Attila the Hun if I don't.

Actually, you cooperate with a good chunk of the population just by habitating, paying your bills, doing your job, and the other most essential basics for living in this country. You don't have to like them, but you are working with them to make most everything you take for granted possible. You should at least treat them with an attitude that reflects that fact.

Where did you see the world as it was before "humanity"? I'm suddenly visualizing a gritty survivalist action flick where this lone civilized white guy crash lands into the heart of the Congo and has to claw his way out past waves of rabid cannibals, psychotic mercenaries, and African drug lords.

Selling drugs, specifically cocaine. When you see people reduced to their basest instincts, you understand how dangerous every person you meet COULD be in the right circumstances, and how thin the line is between what we perceive as our social reality and chaos; there is little beyond fear of consequences that holds people in check under the most crucial circumstances. I'm not saying everyone is intrinsically evil or something like that, though; just that we are less in control of ourselves than we like to think, that much of what causes us to behave civilly is merely conditioning, which can be overcome, rewritten. reprogrammed, etc, and that we are capable of unspeakable things when we don't fear consequences.

The truth about our world, at least in terms of the instincts at play and what happens when enough is on the line, is closer to that than you might think.

Yes, but many persons have a difficult time separating respectful conduct from their own personal feelings—e.g., they believe if you offended them or hurt their feelings in any way, that this also means you disrespected them. Or conversely don't treat you respectfully if they've a personal grievance against you, etc.

I agree a lot of people are hypocrites and project, etc etc.

**glam** · 06-25-2012, 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by Gilly

I pretty much dress in comfortable, black clothes, which are usually worn multiple times between washes, and range from gym shorts to black jeans.

black is the new black

**Gilly** · 06-25-2012, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by glam

black is the new black

http://www.helium.com/items/2173325-why-wear-black

shhhhhh

**wacey** · 06-25-2012, 08:37 PM

Mirror neurons are part of the biological explanation for empathy in many species. Ahaha. Literally what you feel, I feel too! Some human beings are natually more empathic then others. Male female, does not matter. Oh, and you can also learn empthy by pshocologically by "putting yourself in anothers shoes" and relating to how they are feeling and what they must be going through.

Empathy does not equal sympathy. Sympathy is feeling sorry for anothers situation. Empathy is imaging oneself in that persons very same place. I am not putting value judgement on sypmathy either. Sympathy has it's place, like when someone trips and hurts their arm, you feel sorry for them (maybe a little amused - that's where compassion comes in). If you really want to help someone, an ability to empathize is crucial. Nice thread.

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