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    :popcorn: Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Default Philosophy of Liberty

    This was made by a Randian Objectivist, but I think it still has a good message and is wholly compatible with autarchist values.

    http://www.jonathangullible.com/mmed...ty-english.swf

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Admirable but simplistic
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    It's pretty cool. If one dare say otherwise, the local libertarian populace would attack me. Looking especially at you, Ashton. Hi

    Some thoughts: What is property? You just take it from the ground and it's yours? Not so simple. Maybe you're from a wealthy family and thus you inherit lots of stuff that your ancestors took by force, leaving many empty-handed?
    Are people with rich parents entitled to the wealth more than the others as they get more job opportunities and wealth because of better education?

    What about incoming neo-colonialism? Who owns the the planets? The first to get there?

    What about when all the jobs are done obsolete by technology? What can you do better than a self-repairing automaton who requires minimal susteinance and has a better whose AI surpasses your relatively menial intelligence? Would it be the world where the owning class are only interested in labour through sentimental things, such as workers as therapists and prostitutes?

    Won't we need any kind of social security net at all?

    What about when someone comes and tries to take your wealth by force? Won't they just form a new state, possibly a lot more fascist? It's real nice to talk about freedom, but must we all hire peacekeepers and guards? Won't the wealthier ones attack with their better army?

    Does wealth help accumulating more wealth? If so, won't it raise economic inequality as modern economical dynasties will form?

    No market regulation: Will the uneducated be competing with sweat shop force of China even more?

    Advertising ain't a fraud? When have you seen informational advertising with no mental imagery involved? Drawing the line is arbitrary. "The worlds most recommended tooth paste."

    Will be continued. I think.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    It's pretty cool. If one dare say otherwise, the local libertarian populace would attack me. Looking especially at you, Ashton. Hi
    You made it sound like he lives "here" and suffers from multiple personality disorder.

    Some thoughts: What is property?
    There are all kinds of property but I want to see the answer myself.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    You made it sound like he lives "here" and suffers from multiple personality disorder.
    No, he makes it sound how it is: Ashton openly belittles most people who disagrees with his ideas and publicly mocks opposing viewpoints at every opportunity.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    No, he makes it sound how it is: Ashton openly belittles most people who disagrees with his ideas and publicly mocks opposing viewpoints at every opportunity.
    Ohh, that Ashton. I'm really sorry to hear that. Good thing I am no idea generator and have nothing to fear.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    My apologies. It's just, debating with statists and socialists is akin to debating with religionists and creationists. Both invoke unwarranted leaps of faith in the providence of central planners.

    I'm trying to become a more tolerant person.
    Funny, debating with you is similar. Reminds me of talking about evolution with my religious cousins: nothing but a tape reel of generic answers for all objections, always reinforcing and defending their beliefs by reiterating maxims instead of actually addressing objections.

    One thing our debates have shown me is that our vantage points on society are actually rather similar, with one major differentiation: in my view, solutions to social problems have to he emergent, and while I began my intellectual life with some rather hardline stances that I fought urgently for people to see the necessary truth in, I've come to see that social problems cannot be prescribed solutions, because ultimately the ideological bloat and structural sluggishness inherent in allowing people free will, which is the basis of peace, necessitates more subtle solutions. An idea for improving society is not valid just because it makes sense with human nature and is a good solution logically. Good ideology comes from culture. Obviously this sounds sheep-like, but in a way its that very "sheepish" factor that makes it good. Championing an ideal is endlessly frustrating and futile if you imagine that the world will jump on your bandwagon just because you are right. The more important changes that can actually be made in our world stem from relating actual issues and current events to a set of more practicable ideals, a half-baked ideology if you will, one that strikes a compromise between the current system and the ideal one. This makes it accessible and not so hard to swallow; sure, it takes away the fun factor and shock value of telling people youd like to burn paper currency and piss on its ashes, but on the flip side, you might actually change some mi.ds. Shouting maxims down from an ivory tower is a recipe for making you look crazy and decreases your chances of actually impacting people's points of view; the person who desires change more than being right sees that people don't heed ideologues and preachers...unless they're already in the church. The person who is observant and methodical sees that people have to be coaxed, made to turn to face the proper direction and be allowed to walk for themselves, rather than be tied up and dragged backwards.

    Personally after all these years you and jewstin have actually gotten me to read some Mises and consider your ideas. And I'm glad I have, and I'm glad for all our discussions because it's shown me things I hadn't considered. But it would have taken days rather than years if you had been been less intent on debunking my views and promoting yours, and more, hmmm, conversational. Now I'll grant that I'm kind of an exception, I happen to have a brain and am fairly open-minded, which is more than can be said of most. But really the truth is, when your attitude is condescending and know-it-all, you only stand to make enemies with people who don't already agree with you.

    Now, granted, some people are drawn in by sullen arrogance, like Galen, but unless you want to be President of the Autarchic States of Intellectually Dependent Fruitflies, you might want to switch up your game.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Robot Assassin Pa3s's Avatar
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    I agree with all things which were written in this animation. But it's the issue with private property which I see rather critical. I can't fully agree with Anarcho-Communists who deny any kind of property (except for the things for your personal need) and individual wages (a doctor should get more money than a construction worker imho). I believe it's the right of people to own things and I see money as a useful tool to exchange values. But in my opinion, we need to get rid of the capitalist use of money. Everyone deserves the fruit of their own labour, this is no question for me. If they decide to share it with others, so be it. And that is actually a good thing, but they need to have the choice. However, we have to stop people earning money without working themselves, but with the work of many others. That's why nobody should own the means of production like factories, because it is the foundation of a authoritarian relationship between worker and employer and therefore the basis of slavery. Of course, you probably say all those worker-employer relationships are only started if both parties agree in this kind of society, but the reality looks different in my opinion. Money (as it can be used today) equals power and power will be abused by someone, always.

    I can't say if I fully agree, yet, but the few impression I got of Bakunin's Collectivist Anarchism (or Anarcho-Collectivism) appeared to be a very good solution. Unlike the Communist approach, property and money will stay. However, factories and anything which company-owned today will be turned into collectives, they will be managed by the workers and employees. Nobody is ever the boss of anyone. Along with that, nobody should be able to acquire money through their property alone (for example, with renting a apartment to others). The personal life will be as in any other anarchist model: people live mostly the way they want and be part of groups they choose themselves. The state's social services will be replaced by the voluntary support by friends and group members. I still have some questions, but I'm getting a book about it which might clear up things a bit.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    :popcorn: Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Admirable but simplistic
    I admire it for its simplicity.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    I admire it for its simplicity.
    Simplicity does not make something fundamental. It does make it easy to digest.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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