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Thread: David Foster Wallace

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    sure, but the way I will do it is that I will quote things he said from various videos to prove my point, which is a lot harder on my phone, especially since this site is so hard to use sometimes. it's much more reasonable if I do it on monday or tuesday when I have more time. shouldn't bother you too much though, since I already know that you don't have any points to present till then.
    That's fine. Let's examine those interviews and your misconceptions about Beta quadrant. This is going to be interesting.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    That's fine. Let's examine those interviews and your misconceptions about Beta quadrant. This is going to be interesting.
    at least I make an effort in proving my point, instead of insisting on my opinion without adding anything insightful, outside of "he's e1-fixed".

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    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    at least I make an effort in proving my point, instead of insisting on my opinion without adding anything insightful, outside of "he's e1-fixed".
    Where have you made your point???

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    Nothing about his writing style or self-presentation points to beta. One of my main issues with Infinite Jest was that he would always digress into these overly detailed Si monologues that were just caricatures of some theme he had been developing for the past ten pages or so. It was just a way of contextualizing things without any boundaries; this is not beta at all. An EIE, if they did monologue, would be much more measured and seem less like they were indulging it for some kind of quirky fun. Oh and the writing style lacks the naturally stream-of-consciousness quality of beta NFs; it's fluid and definitely well put together, but it just doesn't have that internal continuity. And none of this is to critique ILEs or anything, the guy was a genius; it just doesn't fit.


    edit: I could see ESE, but high dimensional Fe seems off.
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  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Nothing about his writing style or self-presentation points to beta. One of my main issues with Infinite Jest was that he would always digress into these overly detailed Si monologues that were just caricatures of some theme he had been developing for the past ten pages or so. It was just a way of contextualizing things without any boundaries; this is not beta at all. An EIE, if they did monologue, would be much more measured and seem less like they were indulging it for some kind of quirky fun. Oh and the writing style lacks the naturally stream-of-consciousness quality of beta NFs; it's fluid and definitely well put together, but it just doesn't have that internal continuity. And none of this is to critique ILEs or anything, the guy was a genius; it just doesn't fit.


    edit: I could see ESE, but high dimensional Fe seems off.
    what are Si monologues in DFW's work? Si is the processing of signals from all five senses. si is about avoiding discomfort, coercion, prolonged tension of forces. it's about pleasure, saturation, a relaxed and comfortable state of mind, and a satisfaction of a sense of thirst or hunger. dunno what is has to do with Infinte Jest. looking at his interviews, I think he's the opposite of a Si type. he's always very tense and nervous, which is a huge indication for me that he had Si as vulnerable function.

    Wallace was so embarrassed by his tendency to sweat that he carried a tennis racket in high school, hoping people would think he had just left the court.

    gulenko on EIE:

    Has an innate feeling of own inferiority for which he compensates by demonstrative behaviors.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    what are Si monologues in DFW's work? Si is the processing of signals from all five senses. si is about avoiding discomfort, coercion, prolonged tension of forces. it's about pleasure, saturation, a relaxed and comfortable state of mind, and a satisfaction of a sense of thirst or hunger. dunno what is has to do with Infinte Jest.
    I think your description of Si is relatively stereotypical, no offense. I'm not saying it can't relate to those things, but the more basic mechanism which governs it has to do with processing subjective sense impressions of the environment on an ongoing basis. This means that when it comes to how one describes things, Si naturally offers more sensory detail; and when Ne is brought into the mix, a much more expansive space for this process is established. The "monologuing" I mentioned in this regard re: Infinite Jest was intended to get at this—not that an expatiation makes one an Si-valuer, but that Ni/Se-valuers don't care as much about the kind of details and tangents he endlessly employs.

    looking at his interviews, I think he's the opposite of a Si type. he's always very tense and nervous, which is a huge indication for me that he had Si as vulnerable function.
    I've watched interviews, and I agree that he is nervous, but it comes off as more of a kind of childish insecurity, like he's waiting for someone to tell him it's ok. And while there are some Si-related qualities to it, IMO it points more to suggestive than polr, as the latter is always eschewed and downplayed, not continually projected or compensated for. And the only tension I see is just social awkwardness that could apply to any type, not the more controlled, inwardly directed kind you get from Ni-EJs.
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  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I think your description of Si is relatively stereotypical, no offense.
    I literally copied Gulenko's description of Si from his new book lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    I literally copied Gulenko's description of Si from his new book lol
    That's fine, and is why I conceded that it can somewhat relate to those things; I just think they're secondary to the more basic psychological process.
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  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    That's fine, and is why I conceded that it can somewhat relate to those things; I just think they're secondary to the more basic psychological process.
    I personally find it a bit irritating when a person criticises a researcher's definition of a function tbh claiming that it's stereotypical. he has been observing types for 40 years.

    physically, state S is recognised by a soft and relaxed body, a comfortable position, in which the body is maximally in contact with the support surface. gestures are mean and precise, but at the same time smooth, without tension.

    I fail to see that in DFW at all. you can have your own opinion of Si, but it's not how socionics describes it.

  10. #50
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    Easy:
    When the person continuously refers to logical standards he/she shows weakness in it but likes to evaluate ethics qualities from their own perspective shows person's strong point in ethics. He evaluates ethical qualia of the society a lot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    I personally find it a bit irritating when a person criticises a researcher's definition of a function tbh claiming that it's stereotypical. he has been observing types for 40 years.

    physically, state S is recognised by a soft and relaxed body, a comfortable position, in which the body is maximally in contact with the support surface. gestures are mean and precise, but at the same time smooth, without tension.

    I fail to see that in DFW at all. you can have your own opinion of Si, but it's not how socionics describes it.
    Seems like you don't really have an opinion of your own. And what I described has a pretty clear parallel to the more external, behavioral aspects you mentioned. Anyway it seems this is going nowhere, so whatever.
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  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Seems like you don't really have an opinion of your own. And what I described has a pretty clear parallel to the more external, behavioral aspects you mentioned. Anyway it seems this is going nowhere, so whatever.
    the reason why I'm quoting Gulenko so often is because people often respond to me with their subjective opinion on socionics which often isn't in line with the theory at all. you are free to have your own view, but it's just surprising to me that my knowledge is "stereotypical" when it's literally a definition of another researcher, and I don't see why it's a bad thing. view it as having "no opinion of your own", whatever. you can type people on your own defintions of functions but that won't help you very much in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    the reason why I'm quoting Gulenko so often is because people often respond to me with their subjective opinion on socionics which often isn't in line with the theory at all. you are free to have your own view, but it's just surprising to me that my knowledge is "stereotypical" when it's literally a definition of another researcher, and I don't see why it's a bad thing. view it as having "no opinion of your own", whatever. you can type people on your own defintions of functions but that won't help you very much in my opinion.
    Again, I'm not arbitrarily employing some ad hoc description I find palatable. I briefly characterized Si as "processing subjective sense impressions of the environment on an ongoing basis," which I hope you can see relating to "external dynamics of fields"; and pointed out how that kind of information processing pattern could have extrapolations into the realm you were describing. But ultimately, if you literally think Si is just physical comfort and sensory pleasure or whatever, there's no point in discussing it
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  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Again, I'm not arbitrarily employing some ad hoc description I find palatable. I briefly characterized Si as "processing subjective sense impressions of the environment on an ongoing basis," which I hope you can see relating to "external objects of fields"; and pointed out how that kind of information processing pattern could have extrapolations into the realm you were describing. But ultimately, if you literally think Si is just physical comfort and sensory pleasure or whatever, there's no point in discussing it
    yeah, I don't think we are getting anywhere. haven't really seen any convincing arguments from IEI's here who badly want him to be an ILE for some reason, but at least Heretic realised that he's not his identical. sorry if I sound rude or anything, no offense.

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    One of my favorite authors. His works are emotion-saturated though subdued by his logic. DFW said somewhere that he identified with the character Smerdyakov in Dostoevsky's The Brother Karamazov. Smerdyakov is more beta or gamma than alpha or delta. DFW's logic is service of his ethical agenda imo. The essay Consider the Lobster is an example. He logically and cool-heartedly discusses whether lobster suffers but essentially he's trying to persuade readers to Consider the Lobster. He talks and writes a lot about what fiction is for. To make suffers less lonely and get the contented to think (Fe obvious and anti-Si). Plus, there are plenty of masked religious discussiones in his works. One of his statements: choose your faith, choose your passion, choose what you love, but carefully. DFW went to Church regularly, he was desperate for faith, and he appealed people to seek the capitalized TRUTH. The big-T truth is a stereotypical beta theme imo.

    I'm not sure of his type but I feel he has a lot in common with Van Gogh personality-wise (there is even a poem parallelizing DFW with VG). Though shy in public and lovely towards his students and acquaintances, DFW was emotionally turbulent and violent in private (according to his biography and DFW's ex-girlfriend's accusation in the MeToo movement, DFW threw a chair at his ex and stalked her). Another beta trait?
    Last edited by Ada; 01-11-2020 at 04:01 AM.
    English is not my mother tongue.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    He does fine job pretending ILE. Anyway, he is interested in logical purity which sounds very rational. It is like very suggestive drive as he is not creating anything new with his air tight logic.
    .

    yea the first time i opened Infinite Jest (and that was also the last time) I thought "what's this ILE shit" because it seemed full of irrelevant tangents and smart words that seemed to be there only to say "look how refined I am"(sorry I had kind of a bad opinion of ILEs). But since then I learned that ILEs actually have a point/structure when writing, and it's always written clearly, not like DFWs muddled style.

    I would actually type him EII with strong Ne subtype(so strong role Ti too). The Ij vibe I get from him in the videos is pretty strong, and he's deffo not a Ti dom. Ne creatives can have a way with Ne which infuriates me, they use Ne not for insight about the world but to show off how smartypants or "creative" they are. Sometimes it seems like they say stuff in overcomplicated ways ("look ! I wrote a BOOK OF MORE THAN ONE THOUSAND PAGES!!!") to have XSE's swoon over them "OH! OOOOH!!! OHOHOH WOW!!!! Look at him, he's SOOOO smart". And that's all there is to it, smartness, not real intuitive intelligence. There were Ni demonstrative topics in what I read from him too.

    @Heretic 007, I hope you're better and not planning suicides anymore haha Otherwise you should check out the movie Harold and Maude, might give you some ideas! (i hope dark humour is permitted here)

    PS: No questions about this typing pls, too lazy to answer
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  17. #57
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    EII is a really good typing, I can see that more than EIE.

  18. #58

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    I can't see EII writing something like this:

    “I read," I say. "I study and read. I bet I've read everything you read. Don't think I haven't. I consume libraries. I wear out spines and ROM-drives. I do things like get in a taxi and say, "The library, and step on it." My instincts concerning syntax and mechanics are better than your own, I can tell, with all due respect. But it transcends the mechanics. I'm not a machine. I feel and believe. I have opinions. Some of them are interesting. I could, if you'd let me, talk and talk.”

    I'm wondering if this hints a little bit at EIE's occasional narcissistic nature. he's just constantly talking in interviews, covering many different topics. it's the typical extroverted broad perspective. introverts usually study single topics that they become experts in. EII doesn't make much sense tbh, considering how he interacted with women and his suicide, which hints at valuing Se, and is clearly not Fi humbleness.

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  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    .I would actually type him EII with strong Ne subtype(so strong role Ti too). The Ij vibe I get from him in the videos is pretty strong, and he's deffo not a Ti dom. Ne creatives can have a way with Ne which infuriates me, they use Ne not for insight about the world but to show off how smartypants or "creative" they are. Sometimes it seems like they say stuff in overcomplicated ways ("look ! I wrote a BOOK OF MORE THAN ONE THOUSAND PAGES!!!") to have XSE's swoon over them "OH!
    EII is the most undemonstrative, shy, and humble type in the socion. they don't even remotely behave like you describe them. EII is the type that displays real humanism (do what you want others to do towards you), while beta usually preaches moral principles (especially EIE), but violates them very often.

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    exroverted broad perspective: Ne

    but he doesn't really pose, behaves, writes like an extrovert, especially a Fe one, he couldn't care less of expression, of fitting in the crowd, of playing by standard etiquette or merging/meddling in people's stuff and moods.

    A supposedly fun thing I'll never do again, good example of Fe avoidance tendencies.

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