The Prettiest Pattern Yet!!

[Olga]

Thanks to Rick for insight. I garee that until people will have holistic understanding of the interaction we shall not able to accept parts of truth which sound as mere speculation. That does not mean though that pattern of interaction does not exist and is not due to psychological dyanamics. Rick said that duals seems to stick together in quadra but on the ohter hand he said that : since specific interaction depends not on functions but on people's knowledge and experience at the given moment. If it would be not related to functions then we would stick together on the basis of knowledge and experience rather than functions. In this case the whole theory of interrealtionships and socionincs would not much worth.

My point is that both things are important to a degree: functinal compatibility and knowldege and experience. if we shall associate the psychic structure with a Form or Shape and knowldege and experience with Meaning or Content - we shall find the perfect match! As you see i do not disregard what Rick says. It looks like socionists are preoccupied to find the key to interaction which could be described on the level of form and structure but to find the key to this interaction we need to look for the meaning which gives sense to a structural pattern. To my knowldege it is deeply rooted in dicription of quadras and their communication styles and their ability to accept the info and produce something different from that info. Just think, whyther is a strict order of the quadras? Why delta does not go after Alfa or after Beta? I think it would be helpful if we could find a link or even a few links to description of quadras. Different socionists will describe the quadras different - whic can obscure the Meaning. I do believe though that if we want to extract sense on which interaction is based we need to look for the info which provides meaning.

[Megan]

I did not see last entry from Rick so I would like to ask a few questions. What Rick said here reflects the complexity of human realtions. You can take different types like colours mix and match, organise in different structures and you still will get a meaningful picture... and sometimes may be less meaninigful picture.

Between quadras there is a sort of "order" of information flow. Each type has certain relations with other quadras depending on the presence of asymmetric relations between his type and the types of that quadra. For example, Alpha is IEE's supervisor quadra, and Gamma is his supervisee. But LSE's supervisor quadra is Gamma, and Alpha is his supervisee (IEE and LSE are in different "rings of social request").

When you read something like that you think of course there is no real order of types within the quadras as there is no leading type :wink: .

But then he mentioned about "left ring" types and "right ring" types.
I wonder what he means by that, any links?

And this is what I find very important to look at because this suggests process and development and dynamics in time. We need to have three dimensioanl picture of whqat is going on between quadras LOL.

Next, there is the theory of "succession of the quadras," formulated by Bukalov and DarkAngelFireWolf69 in the early 90s, partly as a response to the events in the post Soviet Union. The idea being that a stable Alpha Quadra system is vulnerable to Beta invasion, and so on with the other quadras till you get back to the Alpha Quadra.

[Rick]

Olga, here is a link to an article by DarkAngelFireWolf69 from 1995 outlining the nature of each quadra. It is in Russian, but I believe you are Russian, right?

http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/t/gul195.html#top

Sorry, babelfish doesn't translate it, nor the following article, which is a competent criticism of the "law of succession of quadras":

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark...53/vasja4.html

"Left" types (or left-ring types) are:
ESE, LII, SLE, IEI, LIE, ESI, IEE, SLI
Right types:
ILE, SEI, EIE, LSI, SEE, ILI, LSE, EII

These types are connected by a ring of asymmetric relations, i.e.
ESE supervises SLI, who supervises LIE, who supervises IEI, who supervises ESE. In asymmetric relations information tends to move more in one direction than the other, i.e. one partner ends up thinking a lot more about what the other person says and does than the other, who seems to not notice the other person or underestimate the importance of what they say and do.

Augusta saw great societal importance in asymmetric relations and believed they contributed to societal progress. She called the relationship between ESE and IEE, for example, "relations of social request" ("request" is the term I use), because ESE sends a one-way request to IEE and stimulates the IEE to solve -related problems hinted at by the ESE. The ESE's causes a suggestive (hypnotic?) influence on the IEE, who can fall too much under the ESE's influence if he does not have duals around. SLIs have relations of supervision with ESE, which offer little for the SLI, so he influences the IEE to not get so close to the ESE, which the SLI sees as a "dangerous influence." Augusta saw the presence of duals to be necessary to establish the correct psychological distance between request partners that would allow for "proper transmission of social requests," and, hence, societal progress.

Augusta herself knew all about relations of request, being unhappily married to an LSE .

In the left ring of "social progress" (as coined by Augusta), the order of functions of each of the types is as follows:
/ -> / -> / -> / and back to start

In the right ring:
/ -> / -> / -> / -> -> and back to start

I personally see the idea of social progress being related to asymmetric relations as a hypothesis that may have some merit, but is so abstract as to have almost no practical value. However, I have observed and experienced the one-way information flow of asymmetric relations many times on the interpersonal level.

[Rick]

Rick said that duals seems to stick together in quadra but on the ohter hand he said that : since specific interaction depends not on functions but on people's knowledge and experience at the given moment. If it would be not related to functions then we would stick together on the basis of knowledge and experience rather than functions. In this case the whole theory of interrealtionships and socionincs would not much worth.

I don't see anything incriminating in this statement. What I mean by "specific interation" are things like this:

You had a bad day at work/school and are worked up, and your dual friend just broke up with his girlfriend and is depressed. You meet for 2 minutes somewhere and you start ranting about your day at work, and he doesn't listen or help at all like he is "supposed to," but gets upset and leaves.

(I think that in this case it might be better to think in terms of emotional state and the condition of one's nervous and endocrine systems than speculate about functional interaction. However, you might also say that you are operating at the moment through your ID functions and "hitting" your dual's Super-ego, which he is not able to take since he is overly focused on it at the moment anyways.)

- or -

You are introduced to a "supervisor" at a bar. This person shares some of your interest, and you quickly strike up a long and interesting conversation. In addition, the supervisor is of the opposite sex and finds you attractive, and vice versa. In this case the socionic relation of supervision might begin to be felt only after quite a few meetings, and might become a problem in the relationship only after several months of dating. If you found your supervisor unattractive, and he/she didn't share your interests or code of conduct, you might start feeling "supervised" much sooner.

So, basically, I agree with you about socionics describing the form, but not the content of the psyche. A supervisor who agrees with and praises the content of your vulnerable function that you choose to let out is much better than one who doesn't. But if you get too close, you'll get burned eventually regardless .

[anndelise]

Olga, here is a link to an article by DarkAngelFireWolf69 from 1995 outlining the nature of each quadra. It is in Russian, but I believe you are Russian, right?

http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/t/gul195.html#top

Sorry, babelfish doesn't translate it, nor the following article, which is a competent criticism of the "law of succession of quadras":

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark...53/vasja4.html

"Left" types (or left-ring types) are:
ESE, LII, SLE, IEI, LIE, ESI, IEE, SLI
Right types:
ILE, SEI, EIE, LSI, SEE, ILI, LSE, EII

These types are connected by a ring of asymmetric relations, i.e.
ESE supervises SLI, who supervises LIE, who supervises IEI, who supervises ESE. In asymmetric relations information tends to move more in one direction than the other, i.e. one partner ends up thinking a lot more about what the other person says and does than the other, who seems to not notice the other person or underestimate the importance of what they say and do.

Augusta saw great societal importance in asymmetric relations and believed they contributed to societal progress. She called the relationship between ESE and IEE, for example, "relations of social request" ("request" is the term I use), because ESE sends a one-way request to IEE and stimulates the IEE to solve -related problems hinted at by the ESE. The ESE's causes a suggestive (hypnotic?) influence on the IEE, who can fall too much under the ESE's influence if he does not have duals around. SLIs have relations of supervision with ESE, which offer little for the SLI, so he influences the IEE to not get so close to the ESE, which the SLI sees as a "dangerous influence." Augusta saw the presence of duals to be necessary to establish the correct psychological distance between request partners that would allow for "proper transmission of social requests," and, hence, societal progress.

Augusta herself knew all about relations of request, being unhappily married to an LSE .

In the left ring of "social progress" (as coined by Augusta), the order of functions of each of the types is as follows:
/ -> / -> / -> / and back to start

In the right ring:
/ -> / -> / -> / -> -> and back to start

I personally see the idea of social progress being related to asymmetric relations as a hypothesis that may have some merit, but is so abstract as to have almost no practical value. However, I have observed and experienced the one-way information flow of asymmetric relations many times on the interpersonal level.

1. I wish to heck I read Russian now.... *pouts*

2. The left (clockwise) and right (counter-clockwise) rings showed up naturally as I was figuring out just how each of the types were related to each other. (I refused to spend time memorizing arbitrary relationship names and definitions such as "your [insert relationship name] has his [insert model a number] in your [model a number]")

3. Do the socionists actually have a model such as the above? (If so, I'm gonna be a wee bit upset that it hasn't been put up for those attempting to learn about socionics. The model above (or something similar) would have made things far more intuitive. Instead of taking me 6 months of being side-tracked from trying to figure out how I could use socionics to improve interactions, I could have gotten it within 2 weeks max.)

[Olga]

I am going to translate articles with bublefish and put it in the Article section.

[Olga]

I thought I will not survive by interpreting what Rick wrote and Ann so quickly understood. I have not read the articles which I have translated. I spent time so far by trying to understand what is what. Luckily I had my books in front of me - that helped too.

In the book of Jacubovckaja this model is represented as swastika actually. It states that left types represent evolutionary wheel of progress and right types represent involutionary wheel of progress. I will think if it is somehow relates to model B... could be. I have pointed out the blocks and functions and said that this is the kitchen of types and quaras but I did not have principles - how the types or quadras were picked up from the blocks. It may well be the key - missing puzzle.

I will think and read about it more and then I will come back.

[Rick]

1. I wish to heck I read Russian now.... *pouts*

OK, I just did some tricks, and now you can read DarkAngelFireWolf69's quadra article here:
http://www.socionics.us/works/DarkAngelFireWolf69_quadras.shtml