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Thread: Type and Hidden Agenda aka Activating 6th Function

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    I don't have a Hidden Agenda. My aim, to be healthy, is obvious in the way I eat and cook for people. So, there's nothing hidden about it. It's very externally noticeable about me. OBVIOUSLY, that kind of thing is not hidden. The hidden agenda is not really hidden is it if people can see you doing and behaving that way. -Let's teach you how to spell BS theory making in Socionics!!!
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I don't have a Hidden Agenda. My aim, to be healthy, is obvious in the way I eat and cook for people. So, there's nothing hidden about it. It's very externally noticeable about me. OBVIOUSLY, that kind of thing is not hidden. The hidden agenda is not really hidden is it if people can see you doing and behaving that way. -Let's teach you how to spell BS theory making in Socionics!!!
    It may seem obvious to you, but others may confuse it for something else or be oblivious to it entirely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    My speech tends to be loaded with qualifiers de-emphasizing absolutes, so I doubt this is a signature trait of Ne.

    Lots of α-NTs around here who seem to bear an overt predilection for speaking in sloppy absolutes (indeed, you'll see many of them scoff at the notion that they should be expected to speak clearly and precisely about whatever hokum they're making up this time).

    So, I'd say he might be onto something about it being "Te-related" for lack of a better word.
    Eh, I myself never speak in absolutes.

    Here is something probably stupid that I've noticed. Extraverted Thinkers speak in absolutes about the details, but not for the bigger picture, and Introverted Thinkers do the opposite. Te dominants seem to make more assumptions about semantics and collective knowledge (one right way, one definition, one perspective), which comes across as absolutism, but anything sufficiently unapparent to require abstractions of an introverted nature will be spoken of in probabilistic, impressionistic, and irrational terms (Pi). Introverted Thinkers are mostly absolutist when it comes to what is possible or not possible (conceivable or inconceivable). The objective situation, when analyzed, will be seen as accidental/irrational as befits their creative extraverted perception, thus meriting a less absolute or "necessary" vocabulary.

    From psychological types fwiw:

    "Almost it seems as though it were a sequence of external facts, or as though it could reach its highest point only when chiming in with some generally valid idea. It seems constantly to be affected by objective data, drawing only those conclusions which substantially agree with these. Thus it gives one the impression of a certain lack of freedom, of occasional short-sightedness, in spite of every kind of adroitness within the objectively circumscribed area. What I am now describing is merely the impression this sort of thinking makes upon the observer, who must himself already have a different standpoint, or it would be quite impossible for him to observe the phenomenon of extraverted thinking. As a result of his different standpoint he merely sees its aspect, not its nature; whereas the man who himself possesses this type of thinking is able to seize its nature, while its aspect escapes him. judgment made upon appearance only cannot be fair to the essence of the thing-hence the result is depreciatory. But essentially this thinking is no less fruitful and creative than introverted thinking, only its powers are in the service of other ends. This difference is perceived most clearly when extraverted thinking is engaged upon material, which is specifically an object of the subjectively orientated thinking. This happens, for instance, when a subjective conviction is interpreted analytically from objective facts or is regarded as a product or derivative of objective ideas. But, for our 'scientifically' orientated consciousness, the difference between the two modes of thinking becomes still more obvious when the subjectively orientated thinking makes an attempt to bring objective data into connections not objectively given, i.e. to subordinate them to a subjective idea. Either senses the other as an encroachment, and hence a sort of shadow effect is produced, wherein either type reveals to the other its least favourable aspect, The subjectively orientated thinking then appears [p. 433] quite arbitrary, while the extraverted thinking seems to have an incommensurability that is altogether dull and banal. Thus the two standpoints are incessantly at war. "
    The end is nigh

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    I guess it's my need to share what I find with others. Normally, I'm a "my way" kind of person, I do nothing because others want or like it, but because my own inner demands - many don't interest people, bore them or piss them off. However when it comes to the results, I need to share them with others - otherwise if feels all meaningless, empty.

    There's perhaps something else related to Fe-Mobilizing, I enjoy seeing what impact new things [1] have on people, how they react, so generally the more extraordinary my findings are, the more impatient I become to tell others. For a while now I can't wait for someone to prove that "dark matter" doesn't exist, emitting a shockwave that will stun the entire astrophysics community and ruind the clay feet colossus they struggled to build along the last decades [2]. I like it how it becomes a fact for the masses and how the media slowly replaces "indirectly detected" with "directly detected" although nothing changed in this respect since it was first hypothesized. Of coures, refuting it is not easy task, sometimes I wish it takes as long as possible, preferably up to when people begin praying to the "Dark Santa Claus", this prospect makes the potential discovery even more exciting. It will be so fun!
    ---

    [1] - strange things, things that shake their absurd convictions or habits.
    [2] - I have all the reasons to believe it is a false belief, first of all it is just a made-up designed to fit almost all observations, secondly it breaks Occam's razor .
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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    I associate my hidden agenda function with my general desire for informational organization. It's my urge to systematize, to sort into categories, to impose a structure and a shape onto things. It's an important part of what I do professionally, giving shape and order to videos and TV programs. It's also why the files on my computer will be super organized while my room is a disgusting mess.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    I tend to nag at others to take better care of themselves, and I'll offer a tissue, cough drop, etc if they need it; but I fairly suck at taking care of myself.

    Some of it is sheer laziness, I will admit; it takes time and effort to cook, to clean up after myself in my space and keep it neat. Those aside, I'm not always so good about recognizing the signals my body is giving me, or at following through if I do. To this day, I don't always recognize hunger or low blood sugar if it's not blatant. If my stomach hurts or growls, sure. If I'm feeling light-headed, yeah. But sometimes I just feel like crap. I'm tired, listless. I have a ton of trouble focusing on doing anything I don't feel inclined to do. Times like those, it can take me a while to realize that I just need to eat (and it's amazing how different I feel once I have). Being hypoglycemic (non-diabetic) doesn't help that whole issue.

    I can also be a bit of a hypochondriac, I guess. I have circulation issues or something, and my hands are consistently cold. (It's not thyroid-related; I've been tested.) Consequently, my forehead often feels warm even when I'm not feverish. And then, a few minutes later, it feels just fine. I still don't know what's up with that.

    I've recently been forgetting to wear my gloves outside. Mind you, it's very cold, and I'm sick. And of course, it doesn't occur to me to just freaking set down my bag and dig the gloves out. *facepalm* I'm also not getting enough sleep, as there's always something more interesting to do. I am watching what I eat, though. And forgetting to take my vitamins. Did I mention I suck at taking care of myself?
    Johari/Nohari

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    I don't nag at people to do what I want them to do; LSE, in general just like it if you suggest something that makes sense. They like to make decisions on their own.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    : i respond well to people putting things clearly and concisely, people who can sift through all the bullshit and tell me the fundamental way things are in a relatively simple fashion. i want to be aware of what is significant and relevant, because i know it's not possible to actually learn and know every single little thing. i feel overwhelmed by a lot of information. i like order; uncontrollable chaos turns me into a neurotic mess. i appreciate people who have logically strong opinions, and who are able to be consistent with these opinions, beliefs, and convictions. i am constantly looking for holes in my own logic, reevaluating and questioning my own beliefs and thoughts to make sure they remain certain and strong. i like when people try to be fair and just, regardless of how they may personally feel about the people involved. i want to know the truth, even if it hurts.
    Last edited by glam; 01-14-2012 at 10:24 PM.

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    I haven't read through this entire thread but I chuckled to myself the other day when I was thinking about all the books about different topics I've been reading lately and I found myself consciously thinking "I want to understand EVERYTHING". I wasn't even thinking about socionics but after a few seconds I remembered that "to understand" is supposedly my hidden agenda. haha So I guess that's how it manifests itself in me. Intellectual curiosity.

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    The way I experience my HA () differs from context to context. When I'm considering/designing some system, configuration, or philosophy I attach many sensual and spatial elements to it. The structure becomes a topographical landscape, with its own atmosphere and ecological balance between the parts. I don't like architecture that overemphasizes a single feature, or is too inherited from current commercial trends. I like hidden rooms, serene spaces, nooks, and hovels. Good examples would be the demon doors in Fable, the Shire, and Hogwarts (don't hate). I like uneveness, old things, some clutter, and warm, natural aesthetic. Landscape-wise I'm attracted to uneven, asymmetrical gardens, with winding paths, streams, breaks into groves/fields, and the occasional rustic structure. When I'm in a forest or wilderness, I like to see traces of old societies such as stone walls, trails, old cabins, building foundations, etc. When I was younger I was intrigued by model train sets. They represented a contained environment where people could manifest their internal collection of sensual attachments into concrete form. I loved each little scene and the flavor of the table as a whole. Later this developed into my taste for table-top battle games like Warhammer, which also involves building, sculpting, and painting. I experience mostly as a strong appreciation of the sensual environments I've accumulated and a latent desire to surround myself with them physically and metaphorically. The enviornments and objects I most appreciate are ones that do not have loud features, are old or filled with old things, have many places to be alone, and represent the personal history of the occupiers rather than what they expect outsiders will appreciate or strongly react to.
    The end is nigh

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Eh, I myself never speak in absolutes.

    Here is something probably stupid that I've noticed. Extraverted Thinkers speak in absolutes about the details, but not for the bigger picture, and Introverted Thinkers do the opposite. Te dominants seem to make more assumptions about semantics and collective knowledge (one right way, one definition, one perspective), which comes across as absolutism, but anything sufficiently unapparent to require abstractions of an introverted nature will be spoken of in probabilistic, impressionistic, and irrational terms (Pi). Introverted Thinkers are mostly absolutist when it comes to what is possible or not possible (conceivable or inconceivable). The objective situation, when analyzed, will be seen as accidental/irrational as befits their creative extraverted perception, thus meriting a less absolute or "necessary" vocabulary.

    From psychological types fwiw:

    "Almost it seems as though it were a sequence of external facts, or as though it could reach its highest point only when chiming in with some generally valid idea. It seems constantly to be affected by objective data, drawing only those conclusions which substantially agree with these. Thus it gives one the impression of a certain lack of freedom, of occasional short-sightedness, in spite of every kind of adroitness within the objectively circumscribed area. What I am now describing is merely the impression this sort of thinking makes upon the observer, who must himself already have a different standpoint, or it would be quite impossible for him to observe the phenomenon of extraverted thinking. As a result of his different standpoint he merely sees its aspect, not its nature; whereas the man who himself possesses this type of thinking is able to seize its nature, while its aspect escapes him. judgment made upon appearance only cannot be fair to the essence of the thing-hence the result is depreciatory. But essentially this thinking is no less fruitful and creative than introverted thinking, only its powers are in the service of other ends. This difference is perceived most clearly when extraverted thinking is engaged upon material, which is specifically an object of the subjectively orientated thinking. This happens, for instance, when a subjective conviction is interpreted analytically from objective facts or is regarded as a product or derivative of objective ideas. But, for our 'scientifically' orientated consciousness, the difference between the two modes of thinking becomes still more obvious when the subjectively orientated thinking makes an attempt to bring objective data into connections not objectively given, i.e. to subordinate them to a subjective idea. Either senses the other as an encroachment, and hence a sort of shadow effect is produced, wherein either type reveals to the other its least favourable aspect, The subjectively orientated thinking then appears [p. 433] quite arbitrary, while the extraverted thinking seems to have an incommensurability that is altogether dull and banal. Thus the two standpoints are incessantly at war. "
    This is a really interesting observation.

    It seems to me that external IEs in general have a sort of concreteness to them, and deal in different kinds of absolutes as fits with their psychic orientations. Conversely, there's an inherent malleability to internal IEs, whose form is dependent on whatever external circumstances they find themselves in. So an Fe and a Te valuer will both look at the same event, but Fe will speak about the situation in terms of the discrete impressions the thing carries with it (that he or she observes), while Te will be more prone to concretizing the object "as it is."

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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I don't have a Hidden Agenda. My aim, to be healthy, is obvious in the way I eat and cook for people. So, there's nothing hidden about it. It's very externally noticeable about me. OBVIOUSLY, that kind of thing is not hidden. The hidden agenda is not really hidden is it if people can see you doing and behaving that way. -Let's teach you how to spell BS theory making in Socionics!!!
    I dont think anyone interpreted "hidden agenda" to mean it's hidden from view.. that's a new one. I actually find HA's useful often in typing people.

    Hidden agenda, the way I see it, is the function that you care about a lot, and you think you're good at, but others can see you're not great at it and need help. Such that, those who have your HA in their ego block (more likely, perhaps, those with the corresponding romantic style) come to your aid. Those who are consciously aware of your HA but have it in their superego block hate you for requiring that of them. Those who arent consciously aware of your HA but value it (your identicals and mirrors) I guess appreciate you for the little bit you bring to the table but both you and they could really use some help. And those with your HA in the id block are so annoyed by your lack of appreciation for their valued functions that i guess your HA really doesn't even matter to them (which is insulting to you).

    Speaking of which, a hidden agenda hit (like a disparaging comment about it) comes across as an insult (as opposed to a POLR hit which causes irritation). So next time you realize you insulted someone by some comment, you may be able to narrow them down to one of 4 types-- the two with that HA and the two with that creative function. People are very sensitive about their creative functions too, actually. That works out well with duals then, as they both see the same things as insults. But then, when they are mad at each other, they can hurt each other very deeply precisely because a comment they see as "mean" is just as mean to the other person.
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    God, it feels good to read HAs saying to myself "So that's what they like about me!"
    "Here, baby, let's skip the bullshit and I'll tell you what it is das ding an sich."

    HA: Someday I will have a phallus cult, a dynasty, 3000 concubines, I'll be a model, people will swear in my name and future generations will remember me from my mausoleum, heroic feats and statues.

    But before that I will just have to settle in seducing singular people.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    - A feeling of oneness with the environment; every detail of the environment comes alive on it's own, yet still seems to be part of an organic whole, sort of a living, breathing, vibrating creature moving to every beat and sound, such that my physical body feels like a natural extension of that context, rather than something of an alien entity. I appreciate when others can provide these contexts for me to blend in, because they are the only times I feel as if I'm part of my body and the world, rather than floating two inches above the ground.

    My HA is to feel like I'm part of the physical environment I'm in. This is the closest I can come to describing it. The health stuff is complete bullshit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    - A feeling of oneness with the environment; every detail of the environment comes alive on it's own, yet still seems to be part of an organic whole, sort of a living, breathing, vibrating creature moving to every beat and sound, such that my physical body feels like a natural extension of that context, rather than something of an alien entity. I appreciate when others can provide these contexts for me to blend in, because they are the only times I feel as if I'm part of my body and the world, rather than floating two inches above the ground.

    My HA is to feel like I'm part of the physical environment I'm in. This is the closest I can come to describing it. The health stuff is complete bullshit.
    Its a nice description and a good departure from the blatant.

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    Si has to do with sensing being of the subjective orientation. My hidden agenda. I basically don't understand why people think sensing is something objective, when we're all individuals seeing different things/having unique impressions, and since I see Ne as reflective of something more like universal truth that can be shared and expounded upon via ideas/abstractions, my sensing is more of a personal zone I use for my own purposes, and it's part of how I personally feel I'm best able to be an artist. My Si-HA isn't being afraid of decisive action or my senses coming alive and I become one with them (I mean isn't that something Si-PoLR Alan Watts says, it sounds stupid.) Basically I hate all descriptions beside Jung, they sound overly specific to the individual and don't relate to them.

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    Default Agenda Function

    So now that everyone knows I use Se as an agenda to look cool,

    what does this mean? Is this insecurity? Is this something I should stop doing? It seems like its obvious to people its an agenda function. My ex pointed out to me that it seems like I just do these things to be impressive. I joined gymnastics to show off moves, I joined Tae Kwon Do to look tough, etc.

    What is the general attitude we should hold toward our agenda functions, or in my case as an LIE, Se?
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    My Hidden Agenda helps things make sense, whereas my Suggestive propels me into motion.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    Default Meaning of the Hidden Agenda.

    It is a function you feel responsible for as the upholder of your suggestive function's merit.

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    I seem to be a Ti-LII - similar to you. I have never been able to observe any mobilizing function, and I cannot precieve any hidden agenda. What the hell is Si mobilization and its hidden agenda? I already read the crap on this site about it. I don't get it.

    I get the neglect and overinduglence part ... see my thread about my room. But I do not get the hidden agenda. Unless the hidden agenda is a source of frustration. Is it like wanting to be healthy - but not being able to get your shit together to do anything about it.
     
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    I'm an Ne-LII.

    The term "hidden agenda" represents a very abstract aspect of the function. It is a contingency: a prerequisite for everything else. LII's agenda is simply a pleasant existence. Whenever I have the ability to indulge in sensory pleasures, I generally do. I love sweets. Delta Si tends to be a problem area for me, in that my imagination resists pressure to focus on relevant material. LSEs get onto me over this in a big way. And well yeah, the lack of marketable industry results in little income, results in difficulty providing for oneself.

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    Tcaud can you elaborate more on the issue with Delta Si as opposed to Alpha Si (in your experience)?

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    Delta Si processes function, purpose, and homeostasis. It is often used with beta Se ("the purpose of strength is to protect"). Alpha Si is subjective experience.

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    By Delta Si do you mean Si with Te influence or something else? Alpha Si does seem more "free form" to me. More spontaneous maybe. A well kept garden vs. wilderness. I was wondering because my ESTj friend and I are making a tabletop war game and we both referenced Socionics at some point to explain the dynamics in our design process. We continually come into and resolve various conflicts that I believe are functionally related.

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    Put it this way: extroverted sensing isn't really sensing. All sensing is under the umbrella of alpha Si. That includes qualia, pleasure/displeasure and the experience of the IEs.

    Delta Si: SiTe.

    But we're getting off-topic.

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    I don't think qualia can really be subjugated to one function...
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    So the presence of Fe makes Si "sensing"?

    Would Ne not really be intuition then (Beta Ni is "intuition")?

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    Intuition is a "hunch" made by using Ti to exclude possibilities and guided by anecdotal evidence (experiences recalled with Ni) to produce a relative ratio of probability. So no, Ne alone is not intuition as it is classically defined. Beta Ni is time, and gamma Ni is event sequencing.

    You might say that "intuition" is the guess as to Ne's state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I don't think qualia can really be subjugated to one function...
    I think they can. Qualia are all the results of alpha Fe (toleration), and what is the result of alpha Fe if not alpha Si?

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    @tcaudilllg What would happen when Ti excludes and then uses Si (as opposed to Ni)? Are the anecdotes Ni, or is it the probability aspect? I do kind of understand you, although the process by which Ti excludes possibilities should be a bit laborious as it is a logical process, which would require some precision and thus time. In the vernacular intuition has "speedy" connotations. Is Ti speedy or does the slow Ti process occur prior, and then in specific circumstance the ideas are quickly applied via an unconscious Ni?

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    Intution is basically about looking at a set of possibilities and being able to rule out a part of a given argument, which lends credence to an opposing argument. "I know that X argument isn't right... I'm certain of it. So let's go with plan Y."

    Of course you can imagine what F does in such situations...
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 08-11-2012 at 04:57 AM.

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    Hmm, that sounds a bit rational though, no? I guess the basis for ruling out could be entirely perceptual.

    Intuition understood in that way reminds me of the game "six degrees from ******" played on Wikipedia. You click on "random article" and then, using the in text links you must get to the ****** article within 5 clicks (Doesn't have to be ******). I think the game is worth a go just as a good representation to how Ne works. It requires a broad knowledge base (to predict the links within a link) and also some peculiar knowledge that you can "ride" like a shortcut to the goal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Hmm, that sounds a bit rational though, no? I guess the basis for ruling out could be entirely perceptual.

    Intuition understood in that way reminds me of the game "six degrees from ******" played on Wikipedia. You click on "random article" and then, using the in text links you must get to the ****** article within 5 clicks (Doesn't have to be ******). I think the game is worth a go just as a good representation to how Ne works. It requires a broad knowledge base (to predict the links within a link) and also some peculiar knowledge that you can "ride" like a shortcut to the goal.
    Good definition.

  34. #394

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    Here's another way to look at them:

    Fi- permanent feelings
    Fe- temporary emotional excitement
    Ti- permanent understanding
    Te- temporary logistical excitement
    Si- permanent comfort
    Se- temporary physical (?) excitement
    Ni- permanent faith
    Ne- temporary imaginative excitement

    excitement in this context = inflammation, fervor, ignition. a spark.


    Xi - more of a dance. Drifts into something, moves with it.

    Si- drifts into sensations, moves with them
    Fi- drifts into feelings, moves with them
    Ti -drifts into logic, moves with it
    Ni- drifts into ideas, moves with them

    Xe - more of a statement. Takes everything in, strikes

    Ne- captures external ideas, charges
    Se- captures external objects, charges
    Fe- captures external emotions, charges
    Te- captures external movements, charges
    Last edited by ConcreteButterfly; 04-04-2014 at 07:00 AM. Reason: to make it a little better :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConcreteButterfly View Post
    Here's another way to look at them:

    Fi- permanent love
    Fe- temporary emotional excitement
    Ti- permanent understanding
    Te- temporary logical excitement
    Si- permanent comfort
    Se- temporary sensual excitement
    Ni- permanent faith
    Ne- temporary imaginative excitement

    excitement in this context = inflammation, fervor, ignition. a spark.


    Xi - more of a dance. Drifts into something, moves with it.

    Si- drifts into sensations, moves with them
    Fi- drifts into feelings, moves with them
    Ti -drifts into logic, moves with it
    Ni- drifts into ideas, moves with them

    Xe - more of a statement. Takes everything in, strikes

    Ne- captures ideas, charges
    Se- captures sensations, charges
    Fe- captures emotions, charges
    Te- captures logic, charges
    "Temporary" isn't a just use of a word when describing extroverted functions. That would essentially make extroverts incapable of "genuine" or "true" love, understanding, sensation, and imagination when using their extroverted, primary function, etc... regardless of "hidden agenda" and so forth.

    I believe you're trying to describe functional orientation without taking into consideration that humans are more dynamic than merely instinctively-driven beings.

    For example, I love a lot of people. Like I love, love, love them and their flaws, too! My reasoning for loving them may not be the same as an Fi type's reasoning for love, but the love that I have for them is just as "permanent" as an Fi's love and maybe even more "permanent" due to how little "information" that I need to justify that love!

    With Ni, on the other hand, I need a lot of "historical" references to satisfy the "belief" that I have. Essentially, I have to draw from information that seems practically endless, which can be daunting and limiting in and of itself.


    In other words, no function is "temporary" in nature... it's more like "volatile" or not "volatile". What is "temporary logical excitement" exactly? It seems like a strange definition considering the nature of "logic"... And how could someone temporarily value "logic"? "Logic" is pretty straightforward, and it would seem like a person would either value it or not value it. Now their "ability" to value it and seek it out is another story...


    And honestly, as functions become less and less "primary", that is for example: secondary functions, tertiary functions, etc., the more "volatile" and less rigid they become regardless of their introverted or extroverted orientation.
    Last edited by IBTL; 04-04-2014 at 06:37 AM.

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    Extraverted Sensing Mobilizing

    being forward, trying to cause influence, boldness, overcoming obstacles


    Quote Originally Posted by ConcreteButterfly View Post
    Here's another way to look at them:

    Se- temporary sensual excitement

    Quote Originally Posted by ConcreteButterfly View Post
    Here's another way to look at them:

    Se- captures sensations, charges

    My mobilizing 6th is Se. I don't experience it this way you've describe.

    As I understand it, sensuality, it's an internal subjective sort of state of receiving sensory input. That would be Introverted Sensing, in my estimation.

    Extraverted Sensing is a pushing or being out into the environment, with things or with people or both.

    In the framework you've posted, I would say my Se is temporary touchdown excitement
    "Moral crusaders with zeal but no ethical understanding are likely to give us solutions that are worse than the problems."
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifer View Post
    "Temporary" isn't a just use of a word when describing extroverted functions. That would essentially make extroverts incapable of "genuine" or "true" love, understanding, sensation, and imagination when using their extroverted, primary function, etc... regardless of "hidden agenda" and so forth.

    I believe you're trying to describe functional orientation without taking into consideration that humans are more dynamic than merely instinctively-driven beings.

    For example, I love a lot of people. Like I love, love, love them and their flaws, too! My reasoning for loving them may not be the same as an Fi type's reasoning for love, but the love that I have for them is just as "permanent" as an Fi's love and maybe even more "permanent" due to how little "information" that I need to justify that love!

    With Ni, on the other hand, I need a lot of "historical" references to satisfy the "belief" that I have. Essentially, I have to draw from information that seems practically endless, which can be daunting and limiting in and of itself.


    In other words, no function is "temporary" in nature... it's more like "volatile" or not "volatile". What is "temporary logical excitement" exactly? It seems like a strange definition considering the nature of "logic"... And how could someone temporarily value "logic"? "Logic" is pretty straightforward, and it would seem like a person would either value it or not value it. Now their "ability" to value it is another story...


    And honestly, as functions become less and less "primary", that is for example: secondary functions, tertiary functions, etc., the more "volatile" and less rigid they become regardless of their introverted or extroverted orientation.

    hm I think by temporary I mean localized, static. Sort of the difference between general and local anesthesia, lol. An Fe base would express different emotions at a party and at work for example. It's significant to realize Fe bases have Fi restrictive, which means they are strong in both. in my opinion the introverted and extroverted functions work in tandem, and maybe are the same thing expressed in different ways. Fi being the time independent, cross contextual feeling, Fe being the "temporary" (localized) context dependent version of that same feeling.
    Last edited by ConcreteButterfly; 04-04-2014 at 07:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gabrielle View Post
    Extraverted Sensing Mobilizing

    being forward, trying to cause influence, boldness, overcoming obstacles








    My mobilizing 6th is Se. I don't experience it this way you've describe.

    As I understand it, sensuality, it's an internal subjective sort of state of receiving sensory input. That would be Introverted Sensing, in my estimation.

    Extraverted Sensing is a pushing or being out into the environment, with things or with people or both.
    I agree.
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
    But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
    I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
    Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by ConcreteButterfly View Post
    hm I think by temporary I mean localized, static. Sort of the difference between general and local anesthesia, lol. An Fe base would express different emotions at a party and at work for example. It's significant to realize Fe bases have Fi restrictive, which means they are strong in both. in my opinion the introverted and extroverted functions work in tandem, and maybe are the same thing expressed in different ways. Fi being the time independent, cross contextual feeling, Fe being the "temporary" (localized) context dependent expression of that same feeling.
    You make an excellent point!

    I'm just concerned that you don't realize how the word "temporary" is an unjust utilization in your explanation. I mean... I am extremely loyal to my friends and family! (I just have a difficult time managing, Ti here, too many close relationships all at once, though.)

    And how exactly would I "temporarily" "understand" something? That's just not really possible I don't think... either something is "understood" or it's not; it's the level (to which endpoint is it "understood") or amount of "understanding" that can vary, in my humble opinion. For example, I "understand" that 4 + 4 = 8, and I will "understand" that for as long as I can "understand" mathematics, and I will not simply lose that "understanding" tomorrow and say that 4 + 4 = 12 .

    And on the same premise, how exactly would something be "temporarily" "logical" to a person? It's either "logical" or not "logical".
    Last edited by IBTL; 04-04-2014 at 07:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gabrielle View Post
    Extraverted Sensing Mobilizing

    being forward, trying to cause influence, boldness, overcoming obstacles








    My mobilizing 6th is Se. I don't experience it this way you've describe.

    As I understand it, sensuality, it's an internal subjective sort of state of receiving sensory input. That would be Introverted Sensing, in my estimation.

    Extraverted Sensing is a pushing or being out into the environment, with things or with people or both.

    In the framework you've posted, I would say my Se is temporary touchdown excitement

    I look at Se as pushing against or towards objects in the world, whereas introverted sensing is more a moving with or around them. you're right, the word sensuality doesn't really fit here. perhaps physical excitement is better.

    Se - physical excitement of the world around you

    I guess in a way, when you use Si you suppress Se. Si would be about balancing with the forces around you, Se would be you pushing against or towards them, which is the opposite of balance. Perhaps an Se user intentionally limits Si sensual awareness in themselves to maximize their ability to impact the environment.

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