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    Wavebury's Avatar
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    Default What are good friends for if they cant do you any good?

    I was thinking. What is friendship founded on? Is it founded on a mutual exchange of shared experiences that one needs and craves, rather than "just being friends"? What I mean is, many friendships in my past(though not all of them about half of them) have started because of drugs. I had people befriend me because they needed to do drugs with, though some of them turned out to be false friends in the end, with one fo them I am still friends and he doesnt do anything anymore, he hardly drinks a few beers and he wants to quit smoking. Yet our freindship started on the basis we both needed someone to get high with. Yet this wasnt al it wasnt founded on obviously, since we're still friends now.

    It doesnt have to be just drugs, and friendships. It can also be relationships. Dont you get into a relationship because you want sex, partnership, and someone to be with? I guess where Im going with this is to what extent is ok to use each other for these types of things, if you could call this using each other at all? In other words, what is wrong with making friends who can deliver some goods, rather then just make friends with people who have nothing to offer you? It doesnt seem anything wrong with it, it seems this would be a good basis for relationships forming. Yet I am terrified of people profiting from me, I can ascertain, due to life experiences which people are true friends and which ones are just using me. Ive had a "friend" who wanted me as a friend so long as she had someone to do coke with and visit her in rehab when she felt lonely, yet when I needed her bceause it was my turn to feel lonely, she told me off and it escalated into a fight, and we had a falling out.

    This is a complex question. I guess friendhips should be based on a mutual exhange of positive experiences, but true friends are people who are there when you are down and you need something also. Some people are one sided, they use you as long as it works for them, but when you need something from them, they ditch you.

    So what should friendship be based on? Sharing victories, as Neiteche put it, but also being able support each others for our failures when we need each other to? What are your thoughts?
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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    It's all just a big mashup mix of what you get, what you feel, what you think is right...you can't judge relationships on any one standard, they're far too complex; trying to deconstruct them usually just leads to doing so habitually/compulsively, and thereby negating their actual value. When figuring out whether being friends with someone is worth it or not, just be honest with yourself; trying to deconstruct them is, however, sometimes an affirmative sign that they no longer have much real worth, unless there is some uninvolved factor that is at the root of said questioning.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    trying to deconstruct them is, however, sometimes an affirmative sign that they no longer have much real worth, unless there is some uninvolved factor that is at the root of said questioning.
    I was gonna ask you what you mean by this, especially the part about the "uninvolved factor" but I think I understand what you mean; sometimes you question for stupid reasons that are related to your image and percpetion of the person, not their actual defects. In other words, you're just being paranoid.

    Or did I not understand you right?
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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    I was gonna ask you what you mean by this, especially the part about the "uninvolved factor" but I think I understand what you mean; sometimes you question for stupid reasons that are related to your image and percpetion of the person, not their actual defects. In other words, you're just being paranoid.

    Or did I not understand you right?
    Well either you're being paranoid or its not a worthwhile relationship. You just have to ask yourself what the root of the questioning is: is it something the actual person you have in question did, or are you just going through a questioning phase?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    I was thinking. What is friendship founded on? Is it founded on a mutual exchange of shared experiences that one needs and craves, rather than "just being friends"? What I mean is, many friendships in my past(though not all of them about half of them) have started because of drugs. I had people befriend me because they needed to do drugs with, though some of them turned out to be false friends in the end, with one fo them I am still friends and he doesnt do anything anymore, he hardly drinks a few beers and he wants to quit smoking.
    I've always found drugs a great social medium; smarter people do them, and you're guaranteed a high; it's a more spiritual version of people eating together.

    desire is self-same, only its expression is distorted by unconscious fixations (like sound frequencies); this confusion turns interaction into a balancing act.

    the guy who ripped me off so he could buy weed expressed the conflict that his standard of value led to, yet this doesn't bear on mine (and I don't believe anything is ever gained or lost, just refashioned).

    every relationship begins with the prospect of benefit, so ideally each party has their basic needs provided for, with all else shared... but this is made difficult by how we have come to structure relations. these days you're more likely to pass by a grotesque incarnation of your soulmate rushing up a metro station elevator, foreal.
    Last edited by strrrng; 12-29-2011 at 03:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I've always found drugs a great social medium; smarter people do them, and you're guaranteed a high; it's a more spiritual version of people eating together.
    I like this perspective. You do meet smarter people that way, except when you hang out with people from extremely socioeconomic backgrounds to do with, in which case they generally aerent very smart, like my freind as a teenager who introduced me to weed, and I owe it him, but lets face it he was a bad friend, and not very enlightened.

    desire is self-same, only its expression is distorted by unconscious fixations (like sound frequencies); this confusion turns interaction into a balancing act.
    I admit I do not understand what you mean by this; whos desire are you talking about? One's own desire I would suppose? Perahps you could elaborate a little because I admit I am confused by this statement, lol.


    these days you're more likely to pass by a grotesque incarnation of your soulmate rushing up a metro station elevator, foreal.
    Haha.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    This is a complex question. I guess friendhips should be based on a mutual exhange of positive experiences, but true friends are people who are there when you are down and you need something also. Some people are one sided, they use you as long as it works for them, but when you need something from them, they ditch you.
    Yes. The problem here is that people see and experience things differently. They may not think they're using you (one-sidedly), and even be completely unaware that you feel that way. Some people will care how you feel, others won't. Some will change, others won't. Some people will genuinely and unrestrainedly "use" you, aiming to gain as much as possible while giving nothing in return. It's all a matter of perspective, priorities, and how you handle yourself. IEEs would probably say it's the "static" qualities of people that make the person, but... people change, significantly. Their relationships, too. If you brake out of your comfort zone and reinvent yourself, people around you will (inevitably) adjust, and your relationships will take a completely different dimension. You can learn to set clear personal boundaries, so that one-sided things occur less frequently, and when they do you'll know it's because of your own good will and conscious judgement, not because someone else played you. Also, you can train yourself to not "need" things from others in a way that you'll expect or ask for them, but create relationships and circumstances that will bring you the things you need when you need them without much of your intervention, and without feeling used, etc.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    I think people need people and its good to give the people in your life what they need, and not expect back so much [you may get back from someone else entirely]. I like to give freely, and trust God will provide for me somehow. And it usually works. Ad it puts me in the position of having genuine happiness and surprise when someone wants to offer back.

    Sometimes people are in a space in their life where they just don't have much to give, only take. The reason could be damage much deeper than they even realize. My giving means their needs are being filled and they are not wearing on someone else. And someday they will be in a position to give more, if not to me, then to someone else.

    I really do believe in heavenly rewards so there is not too much giving that can happen here on earth, especially those daily kindnesses and considerations.

    If someone is becoming a habitual taker in your life, if you are feeling continually inconvenienced, its a signal its time to re-evaluate and maybe cut them off. It is for their own good, too, not just yours.

    I like what Parkster said here:

    The day you realize you have no friends, your life starts changing for the better. You stop expecting, depending and investing, and you begin learning how to be (completely) self-reliant.
    I do think that is an important turning point to reach. It would be interesting to hear if others felt they reached a turning point along these lines.

    I was hit with something like this during my divorce. Oh, and a couple years before that my conversion to Catholic. Yes, so first, I lost my large circle of friends and many, many, acquaintances in my church when I converted to Catholic. Then two years later I lost pretty much everybody else during the divorce, at a time when I needed friends more than ever.

    I did not know how very many fair-weather friends I had! I thought everyone just liked me for me, like I liked them. Well, they didn't. But the truth sets you free. What was left were a scant handful of true friends. Two maybe? Possibly three. Can't think of a third! Really, it became slim pickings.

    About this time I had a move scheduled and NO ONE to help me! Okay so I had two friends, an INFJ who is weak and I had furniture to move and she was tied up with a toddler and a nursing baby anyway. The other friend, a sweet ISFJ who is strong, an ex-farmhand on her family farm growing up. She has a lovely Evangelical faith [she was the only one who did not desert me when I converted] and never tires of giving to family, friends, acquaintances and strangers. She recruited her family to help me in the afternoon unload at the new place, and that included a husband with a heart problem and 3 good-size school boys. But I had to get the stuff in the moving truck to get to that location and I couldn't load the rental truck alone.

    So it was two days before the move and God had still not dropped anybody at my doorstop. I was going to Daily Mass at the time and so I approached a stranger [I had never met, but I had seen him there before, and he looked able-bodied, unlike most of the people there] and asked him if he would mind speaking with me when he was done praying... Well, he helped, and brought a friend!

    Yes, I was that desperate. But I learned there are good people out there [at a time when I was questioning if they existed in my corner of the world].

    But going through that made me realize it was precious to know for certain that those two friends were in fact true friends. I kind of realized, as the shock very slowly wore off, that it may have been worth the price to find that out. And when I meet new people now, I don't assume...

    [However, I feel afraid sometimes I assume about my ISTp! I guess once in a while it scares me that my ISTp may not feel anything of what i feel. Its long distance, for now, and there are these spaces, these long spaces that ISTps impose... Oh well, I just have to have faith...and patience...] [and maybe I am dramatizing? Is three days a long space?? It is to me...]

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    As much as I hate religion and can't help but feel disdain for people who accentuate their beliefs, I like what Eliza said, and will go as far as to say that her reasoning (regarding people/relationships) is pretty much along the lines of mine. Naturally I'd be inclined to mock the "people need people" philosophy, but I guess things like that is why I need IEEs for - to constantly remind me I don't live alone, and discretely make up for all the Fe I lack.
    Last edited by Park; 12-30-2011 at 04:02 AM.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkster View Post
    As much as I hate religion and can't help but feel disdain for people who accentuate their believes, I like what Eliza said, and will go as far as to say that her reasoning (regarding people/relationships) is pretty much along the lines of mine. Naturally I'd be inclined to mock the "people need people" philosophy, but I guess things like that is why I need IEEs for - to constantly remind me I don't live alone, and discretely make up for all the Fe I lack.
    There was a period of my life, that is when I had just moved back to Brussels and had to say goodye to all my good friends in Las Vegas(Its hard to make friends in Belgium, since the population of Brussels is 50 percent isolated). It was horribly depressing, but at the same time it allowed me to explore music and philosphy which I would've never explored if I had been surrounded by friends all the time. Your post about having no friends bringing out your more independant self made realize this is exactly what happened; my identity became more accentuated, and I could develop it. Now Ive made friends out here while mainatining the identity I developped during my loner phase and Im eternally thankful Im not alone anymore as its not something I would want to live again, since "without a friend, one would not want to live, even if blessed with all other goods."
    Last edited by Wavebury; 12-30-2011 at 04:23 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    "without a friend, one would not want to live, even if blessed with all other goods."
    Meh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    The ISTp is in an automatic, high-tech kind of place; the people attending to it are minimal. The temperature of the bath is regulated automatically; the food is cooked by robots, the garden is watered automatically. The ISTp knows that all the instruments must be working perfectly to keep his sensations at optimal level.

    If things are working well, the ISTp feels good.
    Now this is more like it.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I did not know how very many fair-weather friends I had! I thought everyone just liked me for me, like I liked them. Well, they didn't. But the truth sets you free.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    [However, I feel afraid sometimes I assume about my ISTp! I guess once in a while it scares me that my ISTp may not feel anything of what i feel. Its long distance, for now, and there are these spaces, these long spaces that ISTps impose... Oh well, I just have to have faith...and patience...] [and maybe I am dramatizing? Is three days a long space?? It is to me...]
    Long distance can be tricky. Give it time though, and try not to rush to conclusions. ISTp's have a slower pace and can be hard to attach, but when they do, it's for real... no games, no BS. Also, don't expect us to overtly express how we feel. Especially in the beginning stages of a relationship.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Parkster! You are not a man! You are a lovely lady! You have a nice face.. And very ISTp!
    Quote Originally Posted by Parkster View Post
    Long distance can be tricky. Give it time though, and try not to rush to conclusions. ISTp's have a slower pace and can be hard to attach, but when they do, it's for real... no games, no BS. Also, don't expect us to overtly express how we feel. Especially in the beginning stages of a relationship.
    Thanks for good ISTp advice. I had another question, I thought my ISTp was stalling me, but he finally wrote back... I am so attached...
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 12-30-2011 at 03:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Parkster! You are not a man! You are a lovely lady! You have a nice face.. And very ISTp!
    LOL, that isn't me. And I AM a man. I like her face, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Thanks for good ISTp advice.
    No problem. Apologies if what I said about religion earlier was offensive. Wasn't intended as such. I respect people's beliefs as long as they don't try to impose them on others. And you don't seem like that type of person to me.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    This is a complex question. I guess friendhips should be based on a mutual exhange of positive experiences, but true friends are people who are there when you are down and you need something also. Some people are one sided, they use you as long as it works for them, but when you need something from them, they ditch you.

    So what should friendship be based on? Sharing victories, as Neiteche put it, but also being able support each others for our failures when we need each other to? What are your thoughts?
    I think friendships should very simply be based on mutual liking and interest in one another. When this is strong enough, it is sure to show in our behavior/attitude towards the person in question. Thinking too much on what could be gained out of friendship, soils the friendship to an extent and it feels less "pure", because it pulls it too much over into the realm of practicalities.

    I don't think it is so much the mutual exchange of positive experiences (or did you mean, positive mutually shared experiences?). Mutual sharing - whether they be positive or negative experiences, is IME one of the quickest methods of bonding, because it helps to build trust through identification/sympathy/empathy among individuals. People won't trust you if they don't feel that they know you.

    I think that this is a very interesting topic, and is one that I have frequently mulled over. Where is that line between "using" people and genuinely turning to them for help? There are "practical" friendships as well as "emotional" friendships, and the shades in between. To me, a good friendship is, in overly simplistic terms, one that I value more for "emotional" reasons than for practical purpose.

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