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Thread: Visual Identification Experiments and Ideas

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    Default Visual Identification Experiments and Ideas

    The results were that while I was not able to necessarily make exact matches, I was able to make matches with celebrities that shared similar facial features to the volunteers such as style of cheeks, chins, eyes, noses, and foreheads ...

    I don't think this totally proves that V.I. works without first testing someone through another means, but it does work to verify that someone is a specific type after they take another type of testing to further prove their type.



    For those of you who have been skeptical that V.I. actually has been proven, I would like to submit to you this experiment that I have done myself to establish that there is a correlation between various volunteers who personally tested as verious types using two diffrent test to account for error.

    Test are found here ...
    http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp
    http://www.socionics.com/sta/sta-1-r.html?0:::

    Using the results of the test, I took pictures from each of the volunteers and looked through the celebrities page at www.socionics.com , then matched each one of them with a celebrity of their tested types.

    Celebritie types
    http://www.socionics.com/advan/famous.htm

    The results were that while I was not able to necessarily make exact matches, I was able to make matches with celebrities that shared similar facial features to the volunteers such as style of cheeks, chins, eyes, noses, and foreheads ...

    I don't think this totally proves that V.I. works without first testing someone through another means, but it does work to verify that someone is a specific type after they take another type of testing to further prove their type.

    ISFP - Kirsten Dunce
    [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/******/Rober%20Board%20Celebs/MELISSA-kirstenDunst.png[/img]
    INFP - Gillian Anderson
    [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/******/Rober%20Board%20Celebs/KATIE-GillianAnderson.png[/img]
    ENFJ - Lee Evans
    [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/******/Rober%20Board%20Celebs/NICK-LeeEvans.png[/img]
    ESTJ - Vinnie Jones
    [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/******/Rober%20Board%20Celebs/PIPPIN-VinnieJones.png[/img]
    ESTP - Antonio Banderas
    [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/******/Rober%20Board%20Celebs/NATE-AntonioBanderas.jpg[/img]
    ESTP - Louis Jourdan
    [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/******/Rober%20Board%20Celebs/NATE-LouisJourdan.png[/img]
    ISFP - Emilie Dequenne
    [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/******/Rober%20Board%20Celebs/MELISSA-EmilieDequenne1.png[/img]
    ISFP - Emilie Dequenne
    [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/******/Rober%20Board%20Celebs/MELISSA-EmilieDequenne2.png[/img]
    INTP - Stewart Granger
    [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/******/Rober%20Board%20Celebs/JON-StewartGranger.png[/img]
    ENFJ - Patrick Swayze
    [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/******/Rober%20Board%20Celebs/JON-PatrickSwayze.png[/img]
    ENFP - Heather Locklear
    [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/******/Rober%20Board%20Celebs/NICHOLE-HeatherLocklear.png[/img]
    INFP - D.B. Sweeney
    [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/******/Rober%20Board%20Celebs/BEN-DanielBernardSweeney.png[/img]

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    Sorry but it doesn't prove anything. Here would be the "scientific" way of finding it out:

    1) Construct a caricature for each of the 16 types
    2) Have a significant number of people (20 per type? x 16 = 320) take the test and give in their photographs
    3) Have x (5) independant judges rate from 1 to n (5?) how similar the picture is to the caricature (= more mathematical power than matching)
    4) Average the rating per type for each photograph
    5) Examine, per type, the average ressemblance score as regards to all the 16 caricatures

    This is the proper, albeit costly and long, methodology. Unfortunately the method you have used in no way proves anything. It merely illustrates.

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    Also, for example, considering for example ENTJs are only 2% of the population, you would need a sample of 1000 people taking the mbti test before you get the 20 ENTJs for your experiment. You could then choose randomly 20 people of each type from the larger number of people for the frequent types (ESFJ, etc.)

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    Did you read my conclusion at all? Sometimes I think people complicate things, not that I am ever standard anyhow.

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    Not that I don't appreciate anyones advice about the "proper way of doing things," but if being taken serious means showing off and that means science than I don't want anything to do with science.

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    I have to agree that you are only illustrating, not proving. But some of those pictures are so alike it's eery.

    From personal experience, I'm inclined to believe that V.I. is at least generally reliable... or would be if there was a more objective way to judge it. Though, that could be said of Socionics itself.

    I'll add to Eidos' suggestion that the judges should not know what the person tested as. I think it would be better if they gave a rating for each type. E.g. Photo A is Very likeISFj, Somewhat like ESFJ, Not at all like INTp, etc.
    TiNe, LII, INTj, etc.
    "I feel like I should be making a sarcastic comment right now, but you're just so cute!" - Shego, Kim Possible

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    Ok, I already have had two people that made judgements without reading the conclusion of the experiment ... for the rest of you, I put the conclusion in bold and at the top, so you will see it immediatelly. I think there is some confusion over what it was trying to show.

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    Any chance you could manage to find any INFJs you could post?

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    I think he's too lazy to post that

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    And by the way, there were judges in the experiment that anonymously rated the celebrities and the volunteers to see if they have a similarity. A few of the matches I made were almost synonomous in voting that some of the pairs do look alike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CS (too lazy to log in)
    Any chance you could manage to find any INFJs you could post?
    Eventually I will find a few INFJs to pair up with some celebrities when I do another round of testing. I may not do it the same exact way, though ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew
    Ok, I already have had two people that made judgements without reading the conclusion of the experiment ... for the rest of you, I put the conclusion in bold and at the top, so you will see it immediatelly. I think there is some confusion over what it was trying to show.
    rmcnew, don't get so defensive. Sorry, it was just the way you worded the subject of the thread that made us think you were saying your experiment was conclusive.
    TiNe, LII, INTj, etc.
    "I feel like I should be making a sarcastic comment right now, but you're just so cute!" - Shego, Kim Possible

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    Quote Originally Posted by XcaliburGirl
    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew
    Ok, I already have had two people that made judgements without reading the conclusion of the experiment ... for the rest of you, I put the conclusion in bold and at the top, so you will see it immediatelly. I think there is some confusion over what it was trying to show.
    rmcnew, don't get so defensive. Sorry, it was just the way you worded the subject of the thread that made us think you were saying your experiment was conclusive.
    Yes, I realized that people were confused by the way I worded things; but, I was still a little bothered in the fact that people were not willing to look completely into the subject matter that I presented, and made biased jusdgements against it.

    In case you havn't figured out by now, I am 100% INTJ ... we tend to get bothered when people don't take ideas into consideration and make judgements without seeing the whole picture.

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    Nevermind, we're both INTJ ... you probably already know.

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    For those non-INTJ who post here, please read ...

    "Take care to listen to someone's idea entirely before you pass judgment on it. Ask questions if necessary. Do whatever it takes to make sure that you understand the idea. Try not to begin judging anything about the idea until you have understood it entirely ... When you make judgments or decisions, try to be aware of your motivation for making the judgment. Are you more interested in finding fault externally, or in improving your own understanding? Seek first to understand, and then to judge."

    http://www.personalitypage.com/INTJ_per.html

    "INTJs live in the world of ideas and strategic planning. They value intelligence, knowledge, and competence, and typically have high standards in these regards, which they continuously strive to fulfill. To a somewhat lesser extent, they have similar expectations of others.With Introverted Intuition dominating their personality, INTJs focus their energy on observing the world, and generating ideas and possibilities. Their mind constantly gathers information and makes associations about it. They are tremendously insightful and usually are very quick to understand new ideas. However, their primary interest is not understanding a concept, but rather applying that concept in a useful way. Unlike the INTP, they do not follow an idea as far as they possibly can, seeking only to understand it fully. INTJs are driven to come to conclusions about ideas. Their need for closure and organization usually requires that they take some action. INTJ's tremendous value and need for systems and organization, combined with their natural insightfulness, makes them excellent scientists. An INTJ scientist gives a gift to society by putting their ideas into a useful form for others to follow. It is not easy for the INTJ to express their internal images, insights, and abstractions. The internal form of the INTJ's thoughts and concepts is highly individualized, and is not readily translatable into a form that others will understand. However, the INTJ is driven to translate their ideas into a plan or system that is usually readily explainable, rather than to do a direct translation of their thoughts. They usually don't see the value of a direct transaction, and will also have difficulty expressing their ideas, which are non-linear. However, their extreme respect of knowledge and intelligence will motivate them to explain themselves to another person who they feel is deserving of the effort."

    http://www.personalitypage.com/INTJ.html

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    RMC, that description of the INTJ is from the MBTI perspective, whom has Ni and Te as its first two functions, which would correlate loosely to the ego block of the INTp.

    In any case, why is it that two identical twins can have completely different personalities?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic(Library)
    In any case, why is it that two identical twins can have completely different personalities?
    I'm not a VI expert, nor do I know many sets of twins, but identical twins can look surprisingly different. That doesn't include facial structure, I guess, but expression-wise there is often a noticible difference especially after you've known them a while. Just a thought.
    TiNe, LII, INTj, etc.
    "I feel like I should be making a sarcastic comment right now, but you're just so cute!" - Shego, Kim Possible

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    I suppose you are trying to say that V.I. is unreliable under the rationale that identical twins can have two diffrent personalities. Answering this is about as bad as the silly logic trap most people try to say about God "could God create a stone he can't lift" ... the question is about as flawed as the answer.

    The reason for this is twofold, genetics and enviroment ... if one twin is treated diffrently than another or is on another enviroment, they will develope a slightly diffrent personality than the other twin. I don't see how this disproves V.I. because there is some proof in the existance of quasi types, people who look the same but belong to another type meerly over a matter of personal perception. However, to say that the way a person typically looks can indefinatelly not determine the way a person behaves towards the world is totally ludacris, because personality is shaped by the way the world perceives them and how they perceive themselves and vice versa. You will eventually see patterns forming, and those are what you need to look for in the big picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic(Library)
    RMC, that description of the INTJ is from the MBTI perspective, whom has Ni and Te as its first two functions, which would correlate loosely to the ego block of the INTp.
    I test INTJ on the on-line socionics test ... have a look if you want ...
    http://www.socionics.com/sta/sta-1-r.html?6:mpSR{kBitKwUb@VvlsD-oVZS1ktlHYd/W-JXxSEp:VOsZw1U2tToeQw1-!1mvlO1TNvguuhkrsUlauZQ:020605051917

    As far as correlating loosely to the INFP from MBTI and SOCIONICS, even at the bottom of the test results it will tell you that there is a problem with determining the J and P type with SOCIONICS test and it allows you to chose with one simple multiple choice question. My sympathies, but your attempts to descredit my reasoning for copying and pasting a desceiption that is totally like me has no bounds on anything.

    There is more info at the socionics website if you are willing to read ...

    http://www.socionics.com/advan/jpproblem.htm


    Other than that the MBTI definition describes how I feel, and that is all I care about. My advice is to come back later and argue when you have totally read and understood what there is to read.

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    You know, I am finding this sort of odd how I am getting this vibe that there are non-INTJs that think they know more about an INTJ than an actual INTJ, and actually try to argue their senseless points like I don't even know my own type. Sort of makes me wonder what makes others who post at this forum tick. Interesting.

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    Um yes... you are drawing a correlation not proving.... What makes you so sure that you are INTJ? I do not know you well but Mystic definitely seems INTJ to me and as your two thought processes seem not to line up.... Also um why did you say he was trying to "post deception"? I didn't seem so to me just.

    Also the drawing a correlation comment was in response to your "type may be verified afterward" claim. As for Eidos I believe he claims to be an ENTJ not an INTJ...

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    rmcnew, i think it is cool that u took it upon yourself to try and show some similarities with VI. maybe it does not prove anything, but it is interesting to see if someone else is seeing the same things that u are when trying to do VI. of course a test like eidos suggested would be great, but who would do it? when?
    so for now discussion on these things is good enough...maybe we will see something we haven't seen before?? maybe we will be able to better articulate what these similarities are?? who knows??
    thanks for posting the pics, i found it interesting! probably everybody else, myself included, is too lazy to do it, but thanks anyway! i hope u do post some more :wink:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    Um yes... you are drawing a correlation not proving.... What makes you so sure that you are INTJ? I do not know you well but Mystic definitely seems INTJ to me and as your two thought processes seem not to line up.... Also um why did you say he was trying to "post deception"? I didn't seem so to me just.

    Also the drawing a correlation comment was in response to your "type may be verified afterward" claim. As for Eidos I believe he claims to be an ENTJ not an INTJ...
    I never accused anyone of posting deception ... I did get upset because people were not reading what I wrote in its entirity and made some judgements that were a little off place from what I actually intended.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    I do not know you well but Mystic definitely seems INTJ to me and as your two thought processes seem not to line up ...
    Actually, I know what you mean by the statement ... He asked about twins, which is a logic trap that I have learned to avoid because I use to think that way. They are pointless to think about because they prove nothing and can drive you nuts thinking about them forever. You are correct, that is an INTJ trait ... I have learned to recognize that pattern and avoid it, often veering to other more flexible questions and solutions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fever(in shades)
    rmcnew, i think it is cool that u took it upon yourself to try and show some similarities with VI. maybe it does not prove anything, but it is interesting to see if someone else is seeing the same things that u are when trying to do VI. of course a test like eidos suggested would be great, but who would do it? when?
    so for now discussion on these things is good enough...maybe we will see something we haven't seen before?? maybe we will be able to better articulate what these similarities are?? who knows??
    thanks for posting the pics, i found it interesting! probably everybody else, myself included, is too lazy to do it, but thanks anyway! i hope u do post some more :wink:
    Yeah! Finally someone who isn't out to criticise my methods or my means!

    Yes, I do not see myself as lazy and I am up for doing these sort of experimentations and taking the time to do them; the problem is that you can't place these experiments in a box and demand that they be done a certain exact way or they are not valid. That is arrogance and does nothing more than make science either totally professional or a total circus and out for show. The first one sounds real good, but not very likely in my case.

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    Very good matches I think. Its interesting how each type has their own emotional expression style, which shows in their face. Makes me wonder if their face adapted to the style or the style to the face. With some types I almost can predict what their face will look like after a certain stimuli. Almost how you can tell if someone is F or T by how they dance (if they aren't too T to dance at all :-) ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew
    I never accused anyone of posting deception ... I did get upset because people were not reading what I wrote in its entirity and made some judgements that were a little off place from what I actually intended.
    I was refering to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew
    My sympathies, but your attempts to descredit my reasoning for copying and pasting a desceiption that is totally like me has no bounds on anything.
    I do agree with you about the twins however but I think it is due to things that can warp bodily features like different amounts of bofy fat and so forth.

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    Yeah, I don't doubt that either ...

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    rmcnew, with all due respect, I have the right to disagree with what you said. This thread is entitled "Experiment that I have concocted to prove VI". So I was just saying that it didn't.

    Eidos (entj).

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    No, you can disagree ... of course, I disagree that something has to be done an exact way to be truth ... validity does not always equal truth.

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    I was speaking of radical differences between two identical twin's personality, not a slight one., although I suppose my statement could only refute the genetic portion of one's appearance.

    And my comment upon your link was directed towards the fact that the first two functions, the functions described in that little segment, of an INTJ in the MBTI theory correlate DIRECTLY with the functions of the INTp; thus, any and all TALENTS that are described in that paragraph must correlate with the talents of the INTp. This is because one's talents are derived from one's ego functions, which in this instance would be the INTp's ego.

    I must come off as a real asshole online; people erupt when I comment on their ideas.

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    You don't to me. Why is that? I like your comments for the most part.

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    Mystic, I wasn't upset at you persay ... mostly I was still ticked from people coming in and commenting on the thread without reading everything that I wrote first and making biased judgements. I think that may have made me misjudge what you were trying to say.

    That, and I didn't realize totally at that time that there is a diffrence between the MBTI and SOCIONICS definition of INTJ and INTP ...

    Well, I went back and read the INTP and INTJ as explained from the SOCIONICS perspective. The only answer thing that I have decided is that I have traits from both INTJ and INTP, but I am moreso INTP than INTJ ...

    However, going back to the MBTI I am still considered more INTJ than INTP.

    So ...
    SOCI = INTP
    MBTI = INTJ

    Ohh yeah, I could be more of an ENTP actually ... going by the straight INTP definition I should speak monotone, have a slight underbite, and look like a victim ... just like this guy ...



    This guy is the textbook case example of a SOCIONICS INTP ... Notice how he has a scared rabbit look in his eyes and a slight underbyte on his lip. He even speaks in monotone in real life.


    I don't look or act at all like this guy, so I am guessing I am really an ENTP ...

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    I actually know this set of twins, one ESFJ and the other is ISFP. I can easily tell appart their personalities by their eyes, and behavior. Their faces and makeup style is different too. Im guessing the face adjusted to the baseline emotions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slava (at home)
    I actually know this set of twins, one ESFJ and the other is ISFP. I can easily tell appart their personalities by their eyes, and behavior. Their faces and makeup style is different too. Im guessing the face adjusted to the baseline emotions.
    Yes, also they way people move their mouthes is a way to tag their type along with the eyes. You can't just go by physical looks alone, everything must be taken into account.

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    Mystic, I wasn't upset at you persay ... mostly I was still ticked from people coming in and commenting on the thread without reading everything that I wrote first and making biased judgements. I think that may have made me misjudge what you were trying to say.
    If someone disagrees with you it doesn't mean they have "biased" judgement. They just have a different opinion.

    Eidos.

  37. #37
    Jarno's Avatar
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    Default VI experiments

    I had this idea...

    We could test how well VI of pictures works, if someone posts pictures of 5 friends of him/her on the 'what's my type' section. He/she knowing already their types with a 100% certainty.

    We then could all give our opinion on what type those persons probably are by using VI.

    In the end we can conclude how useful VI actually is, by looking at the scores of everyone. Next to that it may shed some light on how well you are using VI.

    Maybe some interesting conclusions can be drawn like for example, if everyone is wrong 95% of the time, then we might stop using the picture VI stuff, or maybe we find that someone on this site has everything right, making him/her opinion very trustworthy in that area.

    What do you think, would it be a nice experiment? Or have any suggestions/remarks?

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    Good idea.

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    Now all we need is someone who volunteers to post some pictures

  40. #40
    ~~rubicon~~ Rubicon's Avatar
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    People will just end up saying that the original poster has typed the person wrong or something ... and no one knows people's types for certain anyway.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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