View Poll Results: Lana's type?

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  • ILE (ENTp)

    0 0%
  • SEI (ISFp)

    1 2.78%
  • ESE (ESFj)

    0 0%
  • LII (INTj)

    1 2.78%
  • SLE (ESTp)

    0 0%
  • IEI (INFp)

    10 27.78%
  • EIE (ENFj)

    2 5.56%
  • LSI (ISTj)

    0 0%
  • SEE (ESFp)

    5 13.89%
  • ILI (INTp)

    1 2.78%
  • LIE (ENTj)

    0 0%
  • ESI (ISFj)

    11 30.56%
  • IEE (ENFp)

    5 13.89%
  • SLI (ISTp)

    0 0%
  • LSE (ESTj)

    0 0%
  • EII (INFj)

    2 5.56%
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Thread: Lana Del Rey

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  1. #11
    darya's Avatar
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    Jan 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevra View Post
    I went with 4 vs. 3, because of the following reasons.

    For contrast: My example for a 3 is Heidi Klum - SEE E3w2 sx/so (maybe so/sx). I have watched her in some shows. She is all over the competency. Her first and foremost priority is getting the job done, mastering the challenge. Petty insecurity or doubting is not what she is about. I remember, when she had some turmoil in her personal life, there was not one incident, where I would say, that her E3 professionalism really slipped. She has more of being in control quality. I remember her talking about her start in the modeling business. How she had to run from casting to casting. There are thousands of girls. They come, walk and then it’s like ‚thank you. Done. You have to stand out among the masses. The more you hear her talk, the more you know, that she has that awareness of ‚what works, what doesnt‘. That’s E3 (image) pragmatism for me. She also talked about , how in one photo shooting a photographer was pretty hard on her, because she was not performing how he wanted. She talked about how she learned to smile ‚that smile‘. Like how she worked until she got it right. When you heard her talk about it, she was really matter of fact about it. She went from that, to telling you, that you have to perform in this business, even if you don‘t feel like it. Lana in contrast can come across as more insecure and doubting (SNL performance). An E3, like Heidi, would ruthlessly weed this out and kill this part of themselves in their working persona. Sophistication and Skill is what they aim for.

    Another things is, that Heidi has a more positive and cheerful presentation. That’s how she views professionalism. In her show, she always has a good word for the girls ,who keep it up‘, who create a positive atmosphere, who are energetic/fun. It’s not so much about creating a glossy veneer. There is more of an aspect of not letting out the weakness or letting yourself get dragged down too much, mixed with ‚smile and the world smiles with you, cry and you cry alone‘. Personal feelings have to take more of a back seat in order to get the job done. It’s more of a ‚can do‘ attitude, of keeping yourself upright. It‘s not too much about beeing phony or faking, more of trying to overlay deeper currents (that you might not like to deal with rn) with something positive (so to speak), so that you can keep going on, keep moving forward (see what Don Draper has to say about this).

    4s in contrast seem more like to battle with these deeper currents. They are not trying to overlay too much. If you want to be mean, you could say that they can get stuck in their deeper emotions. Like Lana said in that one interview, how she seems to be singing about the same person and is gonna love him forever (Singing about the same person, relishing in the pain of it over and over again?) Integrating these deep heavy melancholic tones, like Lana, into her professional, working persona is something, that I think would be totally foreign to someone like Heidi Klum. For her it’s more ‚I’m gonna make it‘ ‚the show must go on‘ (makes me think of Moulin Rogues, which I see as an Beta E3 movie). Really just contrast the archetypes, that they try to embody. Lana is more along the lines of outcasted, troubled, doubting, searching females. Music videos seem like they try to catch sth. out of another time (yearning, longing of 4). Heidi is more about the Victoria Secret Angel, sophisticated, sexy, successful, the modern women.

    Just spin the attitudes futher and more differences between 3 and 4 will emerge. The 3 attitude can create friction/a divide between the working persona and them as a private person, when they have a workaholic slant. Just generally a divide what they are showing and what they might be really feeling. I sense more of this divide in Heidi Klum. It’s like her deepest emotions and thoughts are private. They are not bleeding into her working persona. Lana's career is build up on the total opposite. I don’t know if I’m the only one who thinks, that in her art, in her expression, we get a lot of personal content. Her style, despite what people say about made up, still reeks too much of what her emotional landscape looks like. I’m not saying, that she is not ambiguous. But for me it’s more along the line, that you shouldn’t take it too literal with her (hence my typing of intuitive>sensing). Just take in the images, the music, her style without any pre formed judgements. Like drawing the straight line between her music to how she really lived like. Just experience it. I don’t know why, but I don’t feel myself too much reacting to the ‚modeled‘ persona. It’s like deep down I get the impression that she started out as Lizzy and things where not going that well, then she turned the wheel and I always felt like Lana Del Rey was someone, that always lived inside her and she just jumped for it and gave life to that part of her.

    The whole quality of it, it doesn’t remind me too much of an oversell. It’s more like a young person, who had this always deep inside her (this dream) that they honed in their childhood, which gives it this quality, like it’s not too much touched by ‚cruel reality‘ and they are just a little bit afraid of showing it all, because they got laughed at by some person or who is always seen as naive and got underestimated by others, you know not really taken for full and who got a bit defensive and cautious and who wanted to prove themselve because of that. But with all the backlash and all the machinations of the industry, she seems a little bit struggling here and there.

    Re. sexual 4: She is more about expressing female archetypes. These archetypes deal somehow with sexual 4 imaginery for me. E4 with themes like longing and shame, and with Lana it gets bleed out in the intimate area (sexual subtype). It’s THE base compenent of her art. And it’s not just like reducing the sexual instinct to relationships. There are probably thousands of singers who cover that area. Lana is really striking a cord with whatever she is doing with her artist persona, her style. Just look at this thread, just look at other comments on the internet, people have a reaction to her. She is the most streamed female artists on spotify right now. Even before Rihanna and Beyonce!

    Sexual 4. Envious Competition.




    There is probably more, but I‘m too lazy to dig it up all now. But you get the gist. It's more like the 4 quality of something deeply individualistic and the sexual instinct, combine to the desire to be the only one. Would be interesting to see if/how she moves to sexual 1 - Jealousy. This is just my guess/take on it. I think you can make arguments for both sides. This is just my personal stand. On a personal note: I like her melancholic pieces. They make you feel heavy around the heart. It’s soothing. I listen to her sometimes before I go to sleep. It brings me down. One thing though ‚he hit me and it felt like a kiss‘. Romanticizing of domestic abuse ... NO.
    I'm not going to fight if Lana is 3w4 or 4w3, coz I'm not sure myself (as I said, I type her 3w4 sx/sp) and a bunch of other people can't tell either, but I don't think you perfectly understand where the divide between 3 and 4 lies in theory. I's not that simple and it depends on variants and sociotypes A LOT (comparing LIE 3w2 so/sx with let's say IEI 3w4 sx/sp is unrealistic). You're oversimplifying things and that's why 4's are way over-typed imho. It's like every depressed and introspective person is nowadays a 4, no matter how mainstream and basic bitchy they are. Also Lana's lyrics like Ride speak way against her being a 4. You also have over-simplified view of 3. Type 3 is not so much about achieving and being business-like as it is about image seeking in different ways - some 3's only do "prettiest" and nothing else. There's a bunch of unconventional artistic 3's (hello, Andy Warhol) and even depressed and shy 3's. Sexual 4's are EXTREMELY rare ime. I only know one person who I type sx 4 and she's exactly like descriptions and NOTHING like Lana in vibe (she's like a fiery charismatic weird ball of angry energy and competition - compared to her I, as a sx 3w4 come across as a straight out 9).

    To me even the fact so many people pick up on Lana's supposed fakeness and call her a poseur speaks volumes. Which E4 artist is being called out on his/her inauthicity as much as her?

    sx/sp 3 description: (oceanmoonshine)
    Sexual/Self-pres
    This subtype can appear almost Four-like. They can be dramatic and appear introspective, especially with the Four wing. There is an on and off quality to these Threes. They can be very emotional and then become very business like. It’s not uncommon to find this subtype in the arts, especially as actors, singers or performers. The outward sexual energy coupled with the secondary self-pres energy can cause these Threes to focus on projecting an image of themselves to the world. They will seek validation in the area of their persona. This type especially wrestles with the authenticity of the persona/image they create. On the one hand, the image protects the real self, but at the same time they hate the image they project. This subtype is likely to be in a constant state of flux when it comes to the image they project and for this reason, they run the risk of burn-out and disillusionment. They are more prone to depression than the other subtypes.
    When healthier, these Threes begin to trust their intimate relationships, and begin to disentangle the real self from the flux of partial identities they create. They learn that being vulnerable is necessary if they are to get what they really want, which is to reveal the real self and trust that they are lovable even with their flaws.

    Sexual Threes (according to Beatrice Chestnut)

    The Sexual Three - "Charisma"

    The victory or goal that the Sexual Three subtype is interested in (that expresses this Three’s vanity) is one of sex appeal and beauty rather than money or prestige-but they are just as competitive in pursuing these goals as a business executive is in work matters. In this Three, vanity is not denied (as with the Self-Preservation Three) or embraced (like the Social Three); rather, it's somewhere in between, being employed in the service of creating an attractive image and promoting important others.

    The Sexual Three is sweet and shy and not as extroverted as the Social Three-especially when it comes to speaking about himself. It's hard for these Threes to promote themselves, so they often put the focus on others they want to support.

    Although they are just as capable as the other Threes of achieving worldly success through competence and hard work, these Threes don't feel the need to achieve goals in the external world because their focus is much more on pleasing and making themselves attractive as a way of earning love. They see their accomplishments in the successes and happiness of the people around them.

    Sexual 4's on the other hand:
    Sexual Fours are usually arrogant, despite having an underlying sense of inferiority. In the face of the pain of feeling misunderstood, an arrogant attitude is adopted as overcompensation- a means of being recognized. These Fours like being part of “chosen” group, and they can be very elitist. They may refuse to feel indebted to anyone, and they may have the sense that they have the exclusive right to feel offended by the lack of consideration of others. Any criticism or reproach is seen as an affront or disqualification.



    Envious anger dominates the expression of this subtype's unconscious instinctual impulses. Sexual Fours' deeper instinctual motivation is about a refusal to suffer the pain brought about by envy, and a need to reduce suffering by projecting the responsibility for meeting their needs onto others and minimizing others' accomplishments in comparison with their own.



    Sexual Fours “make others suffer” because they feel that they have been made to suffer and so need some sort of compensation. They may seek to hurt or punish others as an unconscious way of repudiating or minimizing their own pain. Naranjo observes that this tendency of this Four can be summed up by the phrase, “Hurt people hurt people.” Externalizing pain helps them ease their inner sense of inferiority. Their relationship to suffering can thus best be understood as a refusal to suffer. This gets expressed as an active insistence on their needs being validated and met. (They want with anger.) More shameless than shameful, Sexual Fours are vocal about expressing their needs; they rebel against any shame connected to their desires. This subtype follows the life philosophy that “the squeaky wheel gets the grease.”

    When others experience Sexual Fours as demanding, this can lead to a pattern of rejection and anger: Sexual Fours get mad when others don't meet their needs, but their demanding nature causes people to avoid or reject them, and then they get angry about being rejected. This type can thus get trapped in a vicious cycle when rejection leads to protest and protest leads to rejection.



    The Sexual Four is more assertive and angrier than the other subtypes. Naranjo refers to this Four as the “mad Four” as opposed to the “sad” (Social) Four. These Fours can be very outspoken with their anger because expression of anger is their way of defending against painful feelings. When they unconsciously turn their pain into anger, they don't have to feel their pain anymore.



    These Fours may even seek to hurt or punish others as a way of repudiating or minimizing their underlying pain. They feel justified in pointing to others as the source of their deprivation or frustration, which serves as both a distraction from their own role in their suffering and a plea for help and understanding.



    Naranjo says that this Four subtype can be the angriest personality among the Enneagram types. They may express envious anger as a way to establish or assert power when they feel inferior at a deeper level, which can be a way to manipulate situations to their advantage. (This kind of anger was the impulse between the Frenchrevolution: “I envy the rich, so I'll organize a revolution.”) And Sexual Fours can be very impulsive. They want things immediately and have little tolerance for frustration.

    Naranjo calls this type “Competition,” and Ichazo called it “Hate.” While this type can be both hateful and competitive, it is important to remember that the competition and hate expressed by this Four represents a deeper need to project their sense of suffering and inadequacy outward. The painful sense of envy felt by the Sexual Four can motivate a wishing with anger, or a sense of “Ive got to get what I need, both to convince myself that my needs aren't shameful, and to feel better about myself with respect to others.” Their competitiveness and anger is a compensation for and a defense against the hurt they feel underneath.



    These Fours like and need emotional intensity. Without intensity, everything can seem unbearably dull and boring. When Sexual Fours want somebody's love, they can be very direct about asking for what they need, or can become “extraordinary”- make themselves seem special and attractive and superior- in an effort to attract it. In line with their natural intensity (fueled by both their heart-based emotional temperament and their sexual instinct), these individuals tend to be more present and available in relationships because they don't deny or avoid many of the factors that can inhibit others relationally, like anger, neediness, competitiveness, arrogance, and having to be liked all the time. However, at times it may prove difficult for them to maintain a loving attitude because they confuse sweetness and benevolence with being false or insincere.



    Sexual Fours are most likely to be confused with Type Eights or Sexual Twos. Like Eights, they have easier access to anger than most types, but they differ from Eights in the wider range of emotions they regularly feel. Naranjo points out that Eights often don't need to get angry, whereas this Four frequently feels misunderstood or envious, so they may show anger more often. They can also look like Sexual “Aggressive-Seductive” Twos (because both types can be aggressive and seductive in relationships) but the Sexual Two is more oriented toward pleasing others.



    Last edited by darya; 09-21-2015 at 11:29 AM.

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