Are INTps really pessimists after all?

[Jonathan]

One of the unusual things about Socionics compared to other Jung-based typology systems is the characterization of one of the types that isn't one of the ethical types in primarily emotional terms....namely, our old friend, the INTp type.

This is very interesting. No other type is described so much in terms of optimism/pessimism. My take on it is that the description of INTps as pessimistic, sardonic, etc., is based on a particular subset of INTps, and not really a general characteristic.

In theory, anyone who is more T than F should be characterized by objectivity, not by either optimism or pessimism. If INTps really see life through pessimistic glasses, rather than through logic, shouldn't they be called INFps?

I wonder if the characterization of INTps as pessmists is truly due to their inner state? Or is it rather a misinterpretation of their behavior based on the fact that what they say seems pessimistic to others?

Any insights on this?

[anndelise]

One of the unusual things about Socionics compared to other Jung-based typology systems is the characterization of one of the types that isn't one of the ethical types in primarily emotional terms....namely, our old friend, the INTp type.

This is very interesting. No other type is described so much in terms of optimism/pessimism. My take on it is that the description of INTps as pessimistic, sardonic, etc., is based on a particular subset of INTps, and not really a general characteristic.

In theory, anyone who is more T than F should be characterized by objectivity, not by either optimism or pessimism. If INTps really see life through pessimistic glasses, rather than through logic, shouldn't they be called INFps?

I wonder if the characterization of INTps as pessmists is truly due to their inner state? Or is it rather a misinterpretation of their behavior based on the fact that what they say seems pessimistic to others?

Any insights on this?

I'm not sure if this applies;
Could it have something to do with noticing what's there vs noticing what's not there?

[aestrivex]

INTps are probably more cynical than other types. i don't exactly know how to justify this, but in my experience i and other INTps i know are definitely cynics. its possible this fuels 's dark, sarcastic humor.

also there are times when other types seem to delude themselves by finding the positive where there is none. when i discuss important topics, take global warming for an example, the other people to whom i speak say that "we must do something about global warming and rectify the situation" or that "some protective measures are being taken," etc. however, this is irrelevant because global warming is already an unstoppable force, the quality of life of humankind is destined to go down as a result of this and other serious problems such as overpopulation, poor environmental practices, and the disastrous state of international affairs. this is a valid conclusion derived solely by and empirical evidence, and i don't really understand why this view is not widespread; instead it is looked upon as unrealistic and overly pessimistic.

[implied]

I wonder if the characterization of INTps as pessmists is truly due to their inner state? Or is it rather a misinterpretation of their behavior based on the fact that what they say seems pessimistic to others?

a little of both? misinterpretation + inner state to a lesser degree than what INFps may experience.

[vroooooom]

EVERYONE IS GAMMA IS GREAT GREAT GREAT

[Expat]

I wonder if the characterization of INTps as pessmists is truly due to their inner state? Or is it rather a misinterpretation of their behavior based on the fact that what they say seems pessimistic to others?

Here's where the behavior-focused, dichotomies-based Socionics often explored by Smilingeyes is helpful.

What people call "pessimistic" -- what gives the INTp the nickname "the Critic" - is a combination of narrative + negative behavior, which reaches a peak for ISFp and INTp, split subtypes.

But the ISFp will focus their comments on , and the INTp, on . Also, perhaps due to PoLR the INTp will be less likely to notice that the comments may be seen as pessimistic and unpleasant. Further, the ISFp's criticisms will be seen rather as "negative" than "pessimistic".

INFps and ISTps split are at a peak of narrative + positive.

It's always worth remembering that shifts away from the split subtypes begin to blur these dichotomies, and that even the split subtypes will not always be constant or consistent in such patterns. But I think that is the explanation why such behavior is seen as typical of INTps.

[Olga]

I watched yesterday the Ali G. film "Ali G. in the House" and it seems to me that INTPs motto is not as such pessimistic as relaisitic. Like Ali G suggests: Keep it real! And reality as we all know can be pessimistic especcialy for the Superid types. Warning. Think what are you doing and where are you heading....blue.

[Phaedrus]

In theory, anyone who is more T than F should be characterized by objectivity, not by either optimism or pessimism.

Correct. And it probably holds up in reality too, at least for INTps.

If INTps really see life through pessimistic glasses, rather than through logic, shouldn't they be called INFps?

But it could be equally misleading to call INFps pessimistic. One of the INFps I know best describes himself as an optimist.

I wonder if the characterization of INTps as pessmists is truly due to their inner state? Or is it rather a misinterpretation of their behavior based on the fact that what they say seems pessimistic to others?

Yes, this is probably a plausible explanation.

INTps are probably more cynical than other types. i don't exactly know how to justify this, but in my experience i and other INTps i know are definitely cynics.

I totally agree with niffweed here. I have thought myself that the word "cynical" is probably more accurate to use to describe the INTp attitude than "pessimistic". I also agree with Olga that "realistic" is the word I would prefer instead of "pessimistic". I would guess that many INTps could correctly be described as cynical realists, who are also primarily ontological materialists in philosophy. Something of this attitude is described here:

He is convinced that living is impossible if one disregards the natural laws that regulate the world. One who ignores reality is heading for disaster. The Criticist believes that it is better to be somewhat too cynical then be a hypocrite. Hearing of a situation, he very soon thoroughly understands it and begins to tell to the bewildered interlocutor the details and aspects that the latter had overlooked. His analysis is devoid of any self-encouragement. “You shouldn’t have a different attitude towards life than you have for the kitchen – the same amount of stinking odor; if you want to cook a dish, you’ll have to get your hands dirty, just make sure you’ll be able to wash the dirt off once you are done; that’s the entire moral of our day and age." So speaks Vautrin, a hero of Balzac’s books. Such misanthropy can kill the anybody’s spirits, except his dual (Julius Caesar, The Politician)!

Funny that you give the problem with global warming as an example, niffweed. I have discussed exactly this problem with an ENTj friend of mine quite recently, and, even though I have not come to any definite conclusions, you and I definitely think very similar about this. My ENTj friend, on the other hand, becomes active and he wants to do something about it. So, now he spends much more time reading about the problem, and it might heavily influence how he will vote in the next Swedish national election.

[Expat]

I'm not sure if this applies;
Could it have something to do with noticing what's there vs noticing what's not there?

Yes that is the description of the positivist/negativist dichotomy.

[Jonathan]

Expat: Here's where the behavior-focused, dichotomies-based Socionics often explored by Smilingeyes is helpful.

I'm not sure I read that thread. Could you direct us to it, and/or explain the terminology regarding "split" subtypes, and why INTp/ISFp would be "negative" and INFp/ISTp "positive"?

Phaedrus: Here's where the behavior-focused, dichotomies-based Socionics often explored by Smilingeyes is helpful.

I guess I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to imply that INFps are pessimists (although in my experience they can be). What I meant was that to view things either pessimistically or optimistically would seem to be characteristic of F types.

T types, while of course having emotions and emotional undercurrents, would naturally tend to steer away from the whole optimist/pessimist dichotomy. I think we're in agreement there.

[Expat]

Expat: Here's where the behavior-focused, dichotomies-based Socionics often explored by Smilingeyes is helpful.

I'm not sure I read that thread. Could you direct us to it, and/or explain the terminology regarding "split" subtypes, and why INTp/ISFp would be "negative" and INFp/ISTp "positive"?

I mean this thread:

http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...=3514&start=15


Which makes charts from the Reinin dichotomies explained here:

http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3398

Plues the Gulenko erotic quadra.

Some of the dichotomies will reach a peak at maximum function usage, between quadras; others, will reach a peak between function uses, right in the middle of the quadras; those will be for the split subtypes.

For IPs, the combination narrator-negative reaches peaks at INTp and ISFp, for split subtypes.

[Joy]

my mom isn't "optimistic", but she's very enthusiastic, and I'm told she's without a doubt INTp

[MysticSonic]

"I guess I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to imply that INFps are pessimists (although in my experience they can be). What I meant was that to view things either pessimistically or optimistically would seem to be characteristic of F types. "

The simple irrationality of humanity as a whole could show in what manner this line of reasoning if flawed.