My mother's type

[soggy-flakes]

........

[FDG]

I would say ESFj, which would make you INTj.

[Expat]

I disagree with FDG this time; not ESFj, ISFp.

ISFps are often "extroverted" in the everyday sense of the world.

I think she is rather uncomfortable with dead silence. It annoys me sometimes when I'm trying to concentrate on something, such as a good book and she is trying to talk to me at the same time. Sometimes she'll say the same thing to me repeatedly and doesn't even realize it. She also frequently changes topics during conversation and goes off on tangents.

However, she is more prone to outbursts of anger and crabbiness than my father is. When I go to visit my mother, it is not uncommon for us to get into several arguments a day, yet five minutes later we've forgotten about it and are on to a different topic.

That is IP, more specifically ISFp behavior, not EJ much less ESFj.

Well, how can we know if she won't come straight out and tell us? When the rest of the family offers to help her out, she often says things like you don't have to help or I can take care of it myself. Then later, she'll complain that we don't help her out enough or if we helped her out, we didn't do it the way she would have.

Same thing. IP not EJ.

She also worries that I'll make a decision that I'll later regret and when I want to try something new, her first instinct seems to be pointing out the negatives. For instance, there was a job I thought about taking but it would have meant moving far away. My mother kept telling me all the bad things that would happen to me if I had accepted the job.

That is the narrative-negative IP behavior also often seen in INTps.

She will often mention about cleaning projects to do in the house and never get around to them

.

Again rather an irrational, more specifically IP behavior.

She is most definitely and and therefore Alpha, but an Alpha IP, and so ISFp.

On a personal note, the overall description reminded me very closely of my ISFp father.

As for the relationship, no, not duality - - too many points where Laura does not like her mother's behavior.

From Laura's original description, I thought either INTj or INFj. Since she gets along very well with her mother, better than with her father, and the main points of friction seem related to behavior rather than to priorities, I think they belong to the same quadra and therefore Laura is INTj, with a relationship of activity with her mother.

What seems clear to me is that Laura is rational and her mother, irrational; so the possible relationships are activity, mirror, supervision, and benefit. Since they are so close, activity or mirror; since Laura is intuitive and her mother is sensor, activity is the only one that really fits.

[Park]

Your description of your mother sounds a lot like my ENFj mother. But I think ESFj could work better for her. I can't really see ISFp as an option. All I see is ExFj which transforms to ESFj as I read the two last paragraphs of your description.

[aestrivex]

you could try to attempt to deduce your mother's polr. this is often an effective solution because the manifestation of the role and polr functions are often quite different.

try to evaluate your mother's Te.

[Park]

Also I've noticed that my mother is frequently pessimistic with fears and worries that later prove to be unfounded. Sometimes she wrongly jumps to conclusions: Because of X, Y happened. Could this suggest a weak function?

I don't know but my mother is the exact same way.

[aestrivex]

you could try to attempt to deduce your mother's polr. this is often an effective solution because the manifestation of the role and polr functions are often quite different.

try to evaluate your mother's Te.

Thanks. I think my mother most likely has a POLR and a role which would make her an ESFj. Could you give an example of how an Ni POLR and a Te role manifest themselves? Could you also explain the POLR please? Thanks.

Also I've noticed that my mother is frequently pessimistic with fears and worries that later prove to be unfounded. Sometimes she wrongly jumps to conclusions: Because of X, Y happened. Could this suggest a weak function?

the last scenario you describe probably suggests that your mother is ISFp since, by that description, she doesn't seem shy about using Ni but can't do very much with it, suggesting that it might be a role function.


If she is an ISFp, she has Te polr. this probably means that she has difficulty understanding the consequences of her actions, especially with such things as finances. she may also have difficulty operating technology or organizing her affairs.

On the other hand, an Ni polr would probably indicate something more along the lines of having errands or chores pop up unnoticed, being unsure of what convictions to follow (perhaps manifesting itself as having no interest or no opinion in politics), and lacking any idea of concepts or situations which do not directly present themselves.

this is a very brief description because i am rather busy, and because of its limited nature it may not be terribly accurate.

[Expat]

It is difficult but I still think that she's more likely to be ISFp than ESFj; I looked at everything again.

I found interesting what you did NOT highlight from the ESFj description:

When walking they often look like they are in a hurry. In fact, ESFjs always seem to be in a hurry.

This is exaggerated but it is a characteristic of EJ with PoLR, lack of trust in their perception of time flow. It is certainly more typical ESFj than ISFp.

ESFjs do many things motivated by pure enthusiasm, but they always show practicality and a sharp-wit in business matters

Yes, ESFjs are very practical and they certainly try to be good in business matters, more so than ISFps who prefer to avoid the issue. PoLR.

What you did not highlight from the ISFp description seemed less important to me.

About her relationship with your father.

If she is ESFj and supervises your ISTp father, it will go like this:

She will be the one trying to get him to do something (even going out with her for fun) while he will be the one yielding, even when he'd really prefer to stay at home. He'd tend to see her as "nagging" while she will be oblivious to it and not even realize it.

If it's more two-sided, it's more likely to be comparative than supervision.

[anndelise]

I disagree with FDG this time; not ESFj, ISFp.

ISFps are often "extroverted" in the everyday sense of the world.

I think she is rather uncomfortable with dead silence. It annoys me sometimes when I'm trying to concentrate on something, such as a good book and she is trying to talk to me at the same time. Sometimes she'll say the same thing to me repeatedly and doesn't even realize it. She also frequently changes topics during conversation and goes off on tangents.

However, she is more prone to outbursts of anger and crabbiness than my father is. When I go to visit my mother, it is not uncommon for us to get into several arguments a day, yet five minutes later we've forgotten about it and are on to a different topic.

That is IP, more specifically ISFp behavior, not EJ much less ESFj.

Well, how can we know if she won't come straight out and tell us? When the rest of the family offers to help her out, she often says things like you don't have to help or I can take care of it myself. Then later, she'll complain that we don't help her out enough or if we helped her out, we didn't do it the way she would have.

Same thing. IP not EJ.

She will often mention about cleaning projects to do in the house and never get around to them

.

Again rather an irrational, more specifically IP behavior.

She is most definitely and and therefore Alpha, but an Alpha IP, and so ISFp.

----
As for the relationship, no, not duality - - too many points where Laura does not like her mother's behavior.

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, and if the following points have been covered sufficiently, then i'll delete this post.


All the points above the line are things i have seen regularly in esfjs, male and female. Now, I'll admit, i haven't met an isfp female (that i've typed at least), but the isfp males i know don't mind silences, as long as they believe that the other person doesn't mind it. They will get uptight about it though if they think that the other person is expecting them to carry on a conversation. ESFjs on the other hand.... *rolls her eyes*

As for the "oh honey, you don't have to" there is also an undercurrent of "but you damned well better", that i feel from my esfj friends. One of the things I have problems with ESFjs is this area and my not liking feeling as if i'm expected/forced to do something, or not meeting their "approval". This makes me very sensitive to this part of them.

And the talking about projects and not doing them, in an ESFj, it's usually a sign of a stressed out ESFj. I hate watching/listening to them belittle themselves for not following through with intended projects. I hate it, cuz I can never find a way of helping them feel better about it.

Now, as for the dual thing....I'm a supporter of dual relationships...however, I'm also a supporter of the concept that they must be on the same boat in order for it to work. Also, there ARE many things that I do not like about ISTps as well. One being their almost eagerness to "do battle", whether it be to confront a cashier, to make a snide comment about someone in line in front of them, or to "debate" something. I may be a supporter of duality, but I'm also realistic enough to know that not all duals are created equal.

edited to add: I am neither suggesting that the mother is ESFj nor ISFp, only that the arguments given do not necessarily imply not ESFj.

[Expat]

Right, to sum it up - -

The relationship of the parents does seem to be of supervision, so if the father is ISTp, the mother is ESFj.

If Laura is INTj, then her mother is indeed her dual - - does it work?

If the mother is ESFj and the relationship is more like activity, then Laura is an ENTp. That would make her father's semi-dual which does not seem to be the case.

If Laura is INFj, as she thought she could be, and if her mother is ESFj, then it's illusion -- if she is ISFp, then it's benefit which is unlikely.

I will discard semi-dual for the relationship with the father and benefit for the relationship with the mother.

Solution 1:

Laura: INTj -----> duality with ESFj mother -----> supervision with ISTp husband -----> benefit with Laura

Problems: doesn't look like duality for Laura and I think the mother is ISFp (but I will concede on that, of course)

Solution 2:

Laura: INTj-----> activity with ISFp mother ----> comparative with ISTp father ----> benefit with Laura

Problems: people think the mother is rather ESFj (although I disagree) and the relationship of the parents is more like supervision

Solution 3:

Laura: INFj -----> illusion with ESFj mother -----> supervision with ISTp father -----> activity with Laura

Problems: the relationship of Laura with her father did not seem to be activity