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Thread: Article: On Waves of Aging and Renewal: Progress Orientation in Combination with Jungian Aspects by V. Gulenko

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    Default Article: On Waves of Aging and Renewal: Progress Orientation in Combination with Jungian Aspects by V. Gulenko


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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    This article is golden.

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    Ben Vaserlan's Avatar
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    This is the wrong way around. I've asked Maria, looked at the original, Ti-ed it out, and asked the man himself. "
    The flow of thought that progresses from generalities to particulars predominates among involutionary "left" types, while reasoning of evolutionary "right" types flows in the opposite direction - from particulars towards broader themes. In formal logic, these two approaches are called induction and deduction, respectively. " I've looked at the original text in Russian [this interface won't let me post it], asked the man himself and before that Ti-ed it out. It should "Deduction and Induction" respectively. Here he is on a video recorded with me on Saturday June 23rd 2018. https://youtu.be/qAZTWIQOnew
    Last edited by Ben Vaserlan; 06-24-2018 at 01:05 AM. Reason: error n cut and paste so needed to work-around that.

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    silke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Vaserlan View Post
    This is the wrong way around. I've asked Maria, looked at the original, Ti-ed it out, and asked the man himself. "
    The flow of thought that progresses from generalities to particulars predominates among involutionary "left" types, while reasoning of evolutionary "right" types flows in the opposite direction - from particulars towards broader themes. In formal logic, these two approaches are called induction and deduction, respectively. " I've looked at the original text in Russian [this interface won't let me post it], asked the man himself and before that Ti-ed it out. It should "Deduction and Induction" respectively. Here he is on a video recorded with me on Saturday June 23rd 2018. https://youtu.be/qAZTWIQOnew
    Can you ask him why he switched it in the cognitive styles article? which is this one - http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...gnitive_Styles

    In this article we have "left/involutionary"->deduction, "right/evolutionary"->induction:
    "The flow of thought that progresses from generalities to particulars predominates among involutionary "left" types, while reasoning of evolutionary "right" types flows in the opposite direction - from particulars towards broader themes. In formal logic, these two approaches are called deduction and induction, respectively."
    In Forms of Thinking article he flips it around: now we have "right/evolutionary"->deduction, "left/involutionary"->induction:
    I will frame this dichotomy in the second sense, namely as simplification vs. complication of thought structure. Meaning that in deductive thinking, given a set of simple and obvious statements (axioms, postulates), the resultant consequences can be necessarily derived (theorem). Reasoning flows in the direction of simple to complex. Evolutionary types therefore mentally complicate the situation.

    In inductive thinking reasoning proceeds the other way around. Observing and comprehending complex phenomena, inductive thinking reduces them to generalized diagrams and models stripped of details. Involutionary types break down and simplify the situation in order to understand it. Reasoning flows in reverse order from complex to simple.
    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...cess-Result.29
    Which one should it be?

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    Ben Vaserlan's Avatar
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    duplicate. should be removed.

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    I think the latter is right: evolutionary is deductive.. Ben I love your channel but I wish you'd provide transcripts because theres a lot of noise and unpleasant sensations that go along with sitting through an entire 3 hour hangout. there's a ton of good information but I feel like I could absorb 3 hours worth in about 40 minutes if I had a transcript to read. also I don't do facebook for moral reasons, is there a way to get some of your materials, which I think are amazing, without doing facebook? I really appreciate what you're doing though, thank you for all your hard work

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    Ben Vaserlan's Avatar
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    I got quite angry with the errors in the translation.

    I'll ask him. But for now, it depends of the view of mentally simplifying vs complicating. it's arguable that LII will simplify complex phenomena into a theory. So in that sense simplifying. LII can speak in generalisations. But LII also brings things together in an involutionary way.

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    Ben Vaserlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I think the latter is right: evolutionary is deductive.. Ben I love your channel but I wish you'd provide transcripts because theres a lot of noise and unpleasant sensations that go along with sitting through an entire 3 hour hangout. there's a ton of good information but I feel like I could absorb 3 hours worth in about 40 minutes if I had a transcript to read. also I don't do facebook for moral reasons, is there a way to get some of your materials, which I think are amazing, without doing facebook? I really appreciate what you're doing though, thank you for all your hard work
    Thanks. Someone uploaded images in a sub reddit group and I can post a lot of them on twitter for you or email some to you. Transcribing is way too much effort for me. It took my ages to transcribe the Chris Montoya hangout for Viktor.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/JungianTypo...ntp_infp_intp/

    This is the updated Model G explanation. As part of the update, i removed the TOTE model comparison and added Beebe Model comparison. That helped Carol Linden understand because she is familiar with that model. http://https://www.reddit.com/r/Jung...h_beebe_rough/

    I'll try to post a thread with the graphics on this forum. I'm getting used again to this old interface I used over 10 years ago.
    Last edited by Ben Vaserlan; 06-24-2018 at 02:53 AM. Reason: adding info.
    Playlist of VICTOR GULENKO VIDEOS on my eponymous YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFts...UNCbndTcDjAODE
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    silke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Vaserlan View Post
    I got quite angry with the errors in the translation.
    I'll ask him. But for now, it depends of the view of mentally simplifying vs complicating. it's arguable that LII will simplify complex phenomena into a theory. So in that sense simplifying. LII can speak in generalisations. But LII also brings things together in an involutionary way.
    It was probably because he keeps switching his terminology so it looked like a mistake in publishing. Understandably he's doing research into socionics and it's a work in progress, but he needs to try to keep consistent with the terms he's using, else it becomes impossible to follow what he means.

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    Deduction - a kind of logical reasoning, aimed at arriving at a specific conclusion based on a set of premises assumed earlierv -Inv

    Induction- a type of reduction reasoning referred to as inference "from detail to the general", i.e. inference about the truthfulness ofthe reason (conclusions in the broad sense of the word) from thetruthfulness of the consequences - Evo

    What's the problem?

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    That he was calling one the other(with left and right), and now he is calling them oppposite.

    Overall, pretty good article. I don't agree with everything said on it, but has accurate parts such as the miscommunication that occurs between a result and a process type.

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