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    Hacking your soul since the beginning of time Hitta's Avatar
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    Default The reason that Ni is related to time.

    Most retarded socionics theorists typically trying to explain Ni as something relating to time. And while Ni does relate to time, this is a gross oversimplification of what Ni does.

    In model B the context becomes much more clearer. Both intuitive functions are what I'd call the functions of relativity as they relate to how one views him/herself in relation to the environment, and how one views the environment in relation to the self. Basically the way one tags the meaning of the environment to the self will directly impact the potentiality that one gives the objects in the environment. Both functions basically revolve around how one views the flow of everything.

    (-Ni) and (+Ne) functioning typically relates to the type of people are are rather philosophical and introspective. They typically see time and space as this infinite spectrum (+Ne) with unlimited potential. Time, so to speak, runs through their mind. The beta feelers are typically more spontaneous and dreamy. They typically have a romanticeqse personality, as their secondary functioning revolves around localization and roots from common sense derivatives. Alpha thinkers on the other hand, typically have a more long winded approach. Everything is globalized, as they actually attempt to see the root of the infinite spectrum.

    (+Ni) and (-Ne) functioning is typically on the opposite end of the spectrum. +Ni is extrospective and adaptive. Typical philosophy is more ingrained in the wave of humanity, thinks of self as loyal to the hive. They tend to see things in a more restrictive, bound to whats in front of their face sense, adapting with the moment. Gamma thinkers typically have a down to earth common sense mind. They make good accountants, statistical mathematicians, stock brokers, etc. In business hierarchies they are usually the man behind the man, as they are extremely loyal. Delta feelers have a very motherly down to earth personality. They attempt to treat everyone as equal, while ironically hold on to their conforming persona. Disagree but accept is the slogan of Delta feelers. They may even go at great lengths to help others conform to their goals through positive reinforcement.
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    I actually like the Beta NF better than the rest of the intuitives.

    Very clear writing hitta, good job.

    An example of beta NF: I sit alone waiting. The leaf falls, and whispers its silent descent - you did not come.

    An example of alpha NT: It is imperative that we find the theory that unites all theories of the universe!

    An example of gamma NT: My advice is this - do not invest in china now, the value-to-wealth differential is slowly growing wider as we speak.

    An example of delta NF: Why do you behave this way? I detest it... but we must always tolerate different people in the society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reuben View Post
    I actually like the Beta NF better than the rest of the intuitives.

    Very clear writing hitta, good job.

    An example of beta NF: I sit alone waiting. The leaf falls, and whispers its silent descent - you did not come.

    An example of alpha NT: It is imperative that we find the theory that unites all theories of the universe!

    An example of gamma NT: My advice is this - do not invest in china now, the value-to-wealth differential is slowly growing wider as we speak.

    An example of delta NF: Why do you behave this way? I detest it... but we must always tolerate different people in the society.
    Its ok reuben we like you even though we hate you

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    I agree completely and you're a genius hitta.

    If you showered more and were in better shape, and were gay- I would totally suck your cock right now. Damn. You are one smart dude.

    (sorry im being too much like Reuben)

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    Both intuitive functions are what I'd call the functions of relativity as they relate to how one views him/herself in relation to the environment, and how one views the environment in relation to the self. Basically the way one tags the meaning of the environment to the self will directly impact the potentiality that one gives the objects in the environment. Both functions basically revolve around how one views the flow of everything.
    This is what I thought too. Not that this has anything to do with your post, but its abstract is also a contradiction to the relations though; it suggests intuitive egos can form a successful relationship with any type through how they view and associate with them. And that's probably true - f the hypothetical relations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    Both functions basically revolve around how one views the flow of everything.
    Ne does not deal with a flow, unless you figuratively call how things mesh together in a whole like that, a continuous topology, which is however not conencted to time, changes, etc (not by itself).
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Ne does not deal with a flow, unless you figuratively call how things mesh together in a whole like that, a continuous topology, which is however not conencted to time, changes, etc (not by itself).
    How one views the potential of objects is always directly related to how one one views the flow of their reality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    How one views the potential of objects is always directly related to how one one views the flow of their reality.
    But they are different things, Se and Ne for instance (force, momentum, potential) are merely vectors, they determine only a rectilineal potential path, which does not coincide with a continuous flow, but some instances along it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    But they are different things, Se and Ne for instance (force, momentum, potential) are merely vectors, they determine only a rectilineal potential path, which does not coincide with a continuous flow, but some instances along it.
    Conceptually, yes, but in the scope of the ego's philosophy, its action has to come from an influence/understanding of the ID. It's a philosophical duality. Explaining one without the other function counterpart is more incomplete, more conceptual.

    Do you disagree on this philosophical arrangement then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divided View Post
    Do you disagree on this philosophical arrangement then?
    No, I agree with it. My idea was that flow (but also interactions, extrinsic and synthetic properties, consequences, time, etc) falls wholly into one of the two partitions - namely Dynamic, therefore excluding Ne.
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    if objects don't have intrinsic value how do they flow?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    if objects don't have intrinsic value how do they flow?
    Ha! You touched a sensitive point. I wrote a small article about it, actually starting off your other thread. I copy an excerpt from it, now that you and felafel brought it up...

    "The unconscious information (of opposite Dynamicality) is a necessity, an immediate consequence of the conscious one. The awareness of intrinsic properties implies the extrinsic, and the other way around, although the conscious can use only one at a time. To use the classical mass VS weight example, mass is a (Static) subjective property assigned to the body, but it implies and is deduced from weight, whithout which mass would be just a meaningless label. On the other hand, weight (Dynamic) has no conclusion without mass, the assumption that the body itself has something inherent to it that makes it behave like that."

    The point is that we can perceive a property only dynamically, based on the evolution and interactions of the objects (rea or imaginary), though we continue to identify the object having that property statically (inside it), a subjective approach [1]. These two views are however opposite sides of the same coin, one can't be conscious along with the other in the same instance (and the same object/property, of course). Although the action is directly affected by potential or power, its awareness makes the static perception its slave (and the other way around [2]). The better team makes the victory, but the victory makes the better team - it's just a matter of orientation of the conscious.
    ---

    [1] - this is besides the point, merely a reminder of this implication: Static, Fields and Internal are all subjective aspects.
    [2] - in the latter I in way agree with you, the intrinsic value determines the outcome, though I can't see how the flow can be determined from it, in fact it is necessary to ignore/dismiss the development as irrelevant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by he died with a felafel View Post
    the idea of the 'flow' sounds more like Si imo. do you think it would be more 'correct', as it were, to refer to Si that way rather than Ne? PS: also, 'flow' does not sound like a characteristic of a static element. maybe you meant sth else tho, dunno.
    Ni and Ne are philosophical tags. Ni and Ne both relate to the potentials of things, its how the mind philosophically categorizing the world. The essence, so to speak, of what one sees. Ne relates to one views the potential of objects in the world. Ni on the other hand, is a little bit more different to put into words. It breaks down into how the world views the potential of the self(yes I know this sounds cheesy). It is kind of the essence of how one feels, the center of the self; how one sees themselves moving through from moment to moment..... the perspective. +Ni types have a merged perspective, more localized, ingrained within the parameters of the web of the collective conscious. This causes a contained vision of objects because their viewpoint is ingrained within the confines of the collective conscious. -Ne is basically dependent potential. -Ni is the outsider/observer perspective. -Ni dominates feel unique, different. Because of this their perspective is rather uncontained and unbound, they tend to have a more open energy, as they think of everything as being possible and constantly changing. They have a more globalized view of the collective conscious because they themselves feel distinct from it.

    To answer your question, its a different kind of flow. Also note that Si and Se are mirrors of Ne and Ni, as they have dimensionality vectors between them(when one of them is conscious/valued, the other set is unconscious/valued). The flow you mentioned is actually connected. I'll make a graph explaining that later.
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    Tcaud's statement that Ni is the effect (or at least his theory seems to make sense in the scope of what happens) of Te and Fe is somewhat correct because if you think about it, Te and Fe are dynamics of fields as in they perceive events in sequences, externally, these two functions kind of feed Ni, but Ni itself is the long reflection, internally, of these external happenings. So, in essence to be an Ni base, this type must be more pronounced in the individual than Te or Fe, but gets it's external events from Te or Fe.
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    This is ludicrous.

    You're exchanging model A with a system of plus/minus that thinks beta and alpha intuition is the same. Your idea goes against Jung's functional concepts.

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    Ne-Si individuals who love categorization perspectives are always going to attempt to understand the Ni-Se action/movement/presence perspectives by applying a categorical definition and critiquing the category in which it lies when it is an irrelevant distinction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Ne-Si individuals who love categorization perspectives are always going to attempt to understand the Ni-Se action/movement/presence perspectives by applying a categorical definition and critiquing the category in which it lies when it is an irrelevant distinction.
    Hmm. I definitely think there is often some truth to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    How exactly do you think that Alpha intuition differs from Beta intuition?
    Perhaps of Alpha and Delta has to do in one familiar way of externalizing a global resolution or completion, trying to root associations into objectivism.

    This is probably why gets associated with exploring possibilities, because the elements in its vision are being externalized or "object"ified. But the common link between alpha and beta is that they ruminate more from a detached or disentangled perspective (), where alphas (and deltas) emphasize, even unintentionally, collecting their thoughts into a global principle (), where as betas (and gammas) are able to just let associations and concepts flow and consume their awareness ().
    Last edited by 717495; 10-29-2011 at 09:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divided View Post
    This is ludicrous.

    You're exchanging model A with a system of plus/minus that thinks beta and alpha intuition is the same. Your idea goes against Jung's functional concepts.
    No, I'm just completing the model, and I don't really care if Jung has an aneurysm over it.
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    internal dynamics of fields
    internal statics of objects

    Internal statics of objects basically translates into the meaning that we place into isolated moments of our philosophical registry. Statics in socionics linguistics basically means isolated or the singular moments. In terms of Ne it means the potentiality that we see in objects and ideas as we encounter them in our frame of reference.

    Internal Dynamics of Field roughly translates into how the potentiality of the objects within our spectrum combine to create the perception field. In terms of human experience(which is what we are doing), it is kind of like the overarching philosophical identity of the person, and what we take from those static elements. Dynamic functions are fluid, they are what lies under the static properties of reality (the identity, static elements approaching infinity, the view point that looks outward). You cannot take isolated meaning without an overarching perspective on the objects in the frame of reference, nor can you have an overarching perspective without isolated meaning from objects.

    Ni and Ne logically have to be linked, otherwise the entire definition of IM elements is flawed.
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    Btw, I'm not the one that created the model, you owe that to the wonderful International Institute of Socionics. Though I'm not sure what that has to do with the rationality of the model, just stating it because for some reason people tend to look at things that have been documented by accredited institutes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    internal dynamics of fields
    internal statics of objects
    Quite, but dynamics, although it may sound 'time' based to an Ne user has little real 'time' concerns to Ni.

    Ni merely observes the momentum/inertia of an action/idea and therefore predicts forward.

    Time is an irrelevant distinction merely the apparent inertia requires gauging. If it can be seen to move it is visible and you can trace how multiple apparently different categories are either divergent or commingling and thus you can ascertain exactly what variables are free and which correlate.

    Ne preference tends to view that if something is far away regardless of momentum then it can be put off. - time is factored in
    By contrast to Ni something that is far away but has real inertia is important now. - time is ignored

    I always hear about Ni being 'related to time' and I giggle, because it is actually time ignoring when you utilize strict logical deduction. I think many people who are Ni dominant have just been told they do this so often they just shrug and accept it.

    This 'inertia only' perspective is seen vividly in how IEI/ILI ignores the 'small movements today', for IEI it is Te, the doubt that analysis must obey reality that they are not interested and thus do not observe. Similarly so for ILI it is Fe, the small parts of todays 'nicities' and 'common ethics' that are ignored because they aren't important to such an ego.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    internal dynamics of fields
    internal statics of objects

    Internal statics of objects basically translates into the meaning that we place into isolated moments of our philosophical registry. Statics in socionics linguistics basically means isolated or the singular moments. In terms of Ne it means the potentiality that we see in objects and ideas as we encounter them in our frame of reference.

    Internal Dynamics of Field roughly translates into how the potentiality of the objects within our spectrum combine to create the perception field. In terms of human experience(which is what we are doing), it is kind of like the overarching philosophical identity of the person, and what we take from those static elements. Dynamic functions are fluid, they are what lies under the static properties of reality (the identity, static elements approaching infinity, the view point that looks outward). You cannot take isolated meaning without an overarching perspective on the objects in the frame of reference, nor can you have an overarching perspective without isolated meaning from objects.

    Ni and Ne logically have to be linked, otherwise the entire definition of IM elements is flawed.
    This misses the bigger picture though. You dont understand how the extrovert function links to the introverted one. All this nomenclature takes away from their very basic relations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    No, I'm just completing the model, and I don't really care if Jung has an aneurysm over it.
    Jung would have agreed with you

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    No, I'm just completing the model, and I don't really care if Jung has an aneurysm over it.
    Jung didn't assert absolutes, YOU ARE. His functions are based on philosophy of thought. Completing the model doesn't make it anything more than relative nonsense.

    All You're doing is confining yourself to your own truth - your own bullshit for who really cares why.

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    INFp Ti is just unfettered -- just like ENFp Te is.

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    Hey Hitta, are you familiar with integration and derivation in Calculus?

    Instead of talking about dynamics of fields and statics of objects, which I've never even heard anyone properly define, we can use calculus to explain it another way.
    Basically, we postulate that there is an objective reality:
    1. The integration of that reality (to a present moment) would represent the accumulation of it (from the past).
    2. The derivation of that reality (to a present moment) would represent the changes within it (from the past).


    Just Speaking in Terms of Single Functions:
    2. Ni/Si would derive the changes inherent in reality to determine how the world interacts and how they want to associate with it.
    But Ni would understand how objects relate and communicate, whereas Si would experience how objects flow.

    1. Ne/Se would integrate to the accumulation of reality and determine how they want to redirect it to new horizons.
    But Ne would create the previously unimaginable, whereas Se would create new experiences.

    1. Ti/Fi would integrate to the accumulation of reality and determine how they want to define it by asserting absolutes (known simply as judging).
    But Ti has no concern for personal absolutes, whereas Fi would have no concern for impersonal absolutes.

    2. Te/Fe would derive the changes inherent in reality to determine how best to manipulate their world toward a given aim.
    But Te aims to create reliable processes, whereas Fe aims to create reliable interactions between people.
    Last edited by DividedsGhost; 10-31-2011 at 05:55 AM.

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