Clearing up some misconceptions on Se dominants

[The Ineffable]

No, that's a misconception; both are quite capable of invention, Ne base types integrate ideas. Both are capable because both perceive objects around them and that's where there are ideas.

Ideas can be generated internally as well, by mixing or extrapolating from existing concepts. You may acknowledge that the great imagination of Ni-Base types is a strong argument.

In general, many people come with creative ideas after isolating themselves from external influences. Now of course, it is hard to determine whether they reflect over already known objects - which is still an immense, though probably limited source of insights - or actually imagined totally new classes based solely on fields, but the latter is definitely possible and frequent. Science Fiction - though actual science as well: multiverses, time travel, space dilation - is IMO an example of what extent can a field get developed to, having only brief interventions of empirical inspiration. Just listen to/read Dr Michio Kaku - Gamma NT, at least Ni Ego IMO - , it's mind-blowing.

[Beautiful sky]

Ideas can be generated internally as well, by mixing or extrapolating from existing concepts. You may acknowledge that the great imagination of Ni-Base types is a strong argument.

Yes, I agree with you; I just think it's wrong for people to assume that there are only a few types that can actually come up with ideas.

[JWC3]

I never made the alleged claim that you dispute, nor the strict association between habit and S. This is a misinterpretation of my statement, maybe you should have asked for details first, but anyway it is a good subject for discussion. When I talk about ths status quo, I talk about means, not purposes. It appears that by "the system" you understand the entities in power, based on the connotations of the notion, but I used it with the sense of the means of the epoch. Se Egos use what's concrete, identifiable in the system, tested and working, with definite qualities and strenths. The cow that actually gives you milk, not the whatever wild animal that could end-up giving more milk based on intangible laws of evolution.

My point was that Se types are least inclined to try to force onto others something too distant in respect to both time and nature. This actually takes their kind of credibility (and therefore power) away from them. For instance, the reasons for the struggle for emancipation of different classes was never their domain. But obviously, if this is taken too literally, one misses the actual point: this doesn't mean a Se would oppose such movements, because they see the concrete half, the part about struggle and changes of power, openings for opportunities, the reason being irrelevant. A human commotion can be caused by totally different things, say either a piece of playstation or an unusual discovery, it's irrelevant, the absolute part of it is the movement and the outcome.

So misinterpreting the above you could say that creativity and innovation would be normally avoided by Se types? Not necessarily, if these are trendy, familiar and profitable (like modern art), they are valued by Se types (obviously), being conservative meaning pissing against the wind in this case, and the vice-versa. Novely VS conservatism do not literally relate to Ne and Se, but to the actual concordance beetween one's attitude and contemporary realities.

I'm not aware of Se types being people trying to do things "differently", it's against it's nature, the things that are good, known and working. Returning to feminism, because that was my point in nanashi's thread, this is a battle with windmills as seen through Se; unless you have something concrete to earn from it (ie become a leader, have a job in consulting, etc), it is just mental masturbation over meanings with no practical use.

Ok. So basically your saying that an Se dominant could certainly do something like lead a revolution or support civil/political/religious change but if they were to do so they would need some sort of practical reason and would likely go about executing said revolution in a way that has proven effective in the past? The goal of revolution is still being met in a practical tried and true way. Do I understand you correctly?

[The Ineffable]

Ok. So basically your saying that an Se dominant could certainly do something like lead a revolution or support civil/political/religious change but if they were to do so they would need some sort of practical reason and would likely go about executing said revolution in a way that has proven effective in the past? The goal of revolution is still being met in a practical tried and true way. Do I understand you correctly?

I think so, yes. I don't have the time to read my previous walls of text, but I guess that is what I meant there as well.

FTR: the thing is that Ne Egos receive empirical information in analogies, interconnected, so they are inclined to use methods that would apparently work but were never tested, precisely what Se Egos are not eager to try. Like proposing something you've seen in ants and seeing no reason why it won't apply to humans, with some adaptations you see fit.

Doing things differently does not necessarily means weak Sensing, speifically weak Se. On the contrary, in ages of innovation or in certain fields (art), creativity and making things different and original is the status quo, but is Intuitives who can break it and instead continuing the same line when appropriate (to them) because their perception transcends these bounds of experience, what actually is proven to work, or to be applicable. The ground breaking creation can be new in times stagnation, retro in times of novelty or old-school in times of modernization. This is what in my view means different (or rather independent), in this context.

Again I draw attention to the necessity of not taking notions literally. I think this is why people are confused, since Ne types are known for both being novel and innovating but also old-school, simple. The vice-versa for Se types, [GTG, to continue]

[JWC3]

I think so, yes. I don't have the time to read my previous walls of text, but I guess that is what I meant there as well.

FTR: the thing is that Ne Egos receive empirical information in analogies, interconnected, so they are inclined to use methods that would apparently work but were never tested, precisely what Se Egos are not eager to try. Like proposing something you've seen in ants and seeing no reason why it won't apply to humans, with some adaptations you see fit.

Doing things differently does not necessarily means weak Sensing, speifically weak Se. On the contrary, in ages of innovation or in certain fields (art), creativity and making things different and original is the status quo, but is Intuitives who can break it and instead continuing the same line when appropriate (to them) because their perception transcends these bounds of experience, what actually is proven to work, or to be applicable. The ground breaking creation can be new in times stagnation, retro in times of novelty or old-school in times of modernization. This is what in my view means different (or rather independent), in this context.

Again I draw attention to the necessity of not taking notions literally. I think this is why people are confused, since Ne types are known for both being novel and innovating but also old-school, simple. The vice-versa for Se types, [GTG, to continue]

I agree that what you said initially didn't really adequately explain what you were trying to say but I agree with you I think. Personally (As an Se dominant) I really don't approve of being different for the sake of being different. It's not something I understand and when I see it being done it feel somewhat annoyed.

An example of this is my directing class. In my directing class we have to direct scenes and whatnot, and often you'll get people who do something akin to making all the actors wear stilts. Which in a scene that has nothing to do with heights or elevation or the circus is just mildly annoying to me. I very much understand not doing things the conventional way if it makes sense but stilts?

Though intellectually (from a socionics stand point) I can very clearly understand that there are people who would value it and esteem it as innovative and I sort of understand why they would think that. Maybe those people are Ne dominants. I couldn't say, I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about Ne or interacting with people I perceive as Ne dominants.

[Leader]

....Se = what will have a definite impact on the environment. Whether that be innovative or used before, and Se generally doesn't care for routine or status quo, it thrives on novelty, the experience. I don't see how being practical disqualifies you from being innovative, doesn't make sense...With my Se (which sees most of the details), my Ti allows me to calculate and interpret all the possibilities which will work, or should work. Im sure there are some misconceptions on Ne, so I don't understand it as well, but how I understand it in contrast to my Se, what I believe I don't like much about Ne is that it will see connections and possibilities but these connections to me aren't that important because they cannot be utilized to achieve something immediate (which isn't just the here and now, but anything I can without a doubt see in the future). I can't wait, I must have it now and see the results of my actions so I can move on to something new. That's why its so easy to lead.

What I do like about Ne and what I have trouble with because of my Se is that it will see stuff that may not be relevant to me immediately, but eventually might lead to something else useful. However, I generally do not have time for this. I want the most effective thing that will work as soon as possible.

Simple example of how I view my Se and Ti, although I can't speak for SEE, take a ball for example. Somebody throws its, my Se is constantly tracking it, but at the same time my Ti is working ahead calculating where it will land, the many possibilities that may happen after it lands (which isn't a priority), and what will most likely happen after it lands(which is priority). Of course this happens to everyone, but this is why im better at it than most people.

I can't predict things in the way Ni does (which I really don't understand...to me the descriptions make it sounds like Ni materializes shit out of thin air), but my Se and Ti is so strong that 1. It lay out all the details in plan sight (Se) and then 2. It organizes that information and like a computer predicts what is most likely to happen anyways (Ti).