Survey: Implications of the "Conscious Agenda"

[Scrummy]

I was talking with some random Russian guy the other day, and he brought up the concept of a "conscious agenda.

Hypothesis:
Your "conscious agenda" is basically your dual's hidden agenda:

ISFp, INFp => to be loved
ESFj, ESTj => to be healthy
INTj, INFj => to be perfect
ENTp, ESTp => to understand
ISTj, ISFj => to be wealthy
ENFj, ENTj => to believe
INTp, ISTp => to know
ESFp, ENFp => to love

How many people here identify with their conscious agenda? (I do.)

It consequently should more or less correspond to your Creative (2nd) function and you may find yourself consciously striving to be "the loved one" (if you are an ISFp/INFp) or "the knowledgeable one" (INTp/ISFp) in the heirarchy of Socionics.

[Gilly]

Cha.

[Slacker]

Sure do.

[Scrummy]

I can't identify with "to believe." My hidden agenda seems like a very conscious one to me already.

In your case, I wouldn't blame you because I can't for the life of me understand why anyone could have "to believe" on their agenda - conscious or hidden. That's probably the most poorly phrased of them.

[oyburger]

Applies to me too but then again it seems I have lots of agendas, being perfect is just one of them

[Phaedrus]

All INTps should identify with "to know", and of course I do that. That the central motivation of INTps is to seek and understand truth, i.e knowledge, is often mentioned in the MBTI type descriptions of INTPs and also in Keirsey's. The socionic type descriptions of INTps would become better if that fact was mentioned, because it is very important. I'm not sure about the other types, but it is not unlikely that it is the same with them.

[anndelise]

ESFp, ENFp => to love

How many people here identify with their conscious agenda? (I do.)

It consequently should more or less correspond to your Creative (2nd) function and you may find yourself consciously striving to be "the loved one" (if you are an ISFp/INFp) or "the knowledgeable one" (INTp/ISFp) in the heirarchy of Socionics.

I do not identify with "to love". However, I do spend an inordinate amount of time trying to understand which values were behind which actions. This too would fall under the Fi Creative.

[aestrivex]

The idea of Ni reflecting belief is certainly an accurate one. However, when the word belief is stated, the mind automatically thinks of religion, which is wholly inappropriate when the Ni is not paired with Fe. For an ENFj, having belief as a conscious agenda makes some sense, especially since ENFjs are sometimes portrayed as highly religious. (indeed, about half the descriptions i have seen for Ni focus on the religious aspects of ENFjs and INFps)

If you talk to a lot of INTps and ENTjs, myself included (as being a devout atheist), you are not likely to find a whole lot of religious people. Personally, my beliefs are manifested in other areas, such as politics, what kinds of decisions are appropriate and what actions should be taken. When the conscious agenda of ENTjs reflects this sort of belief, as a belief of how things should work and how they should be managed, the conscious agenda of Ni fits better.


as for myself, the INTp's conscious agenda of being knowledgeable is obviously extremely accurate.

[flower]

Seems to apply to me.

[Topaz]

It applys to me too but I think the hidden agenda is also conscious. I am beginning to think all the quadra values are conscious. I think the stronger ones are accepted and the weaker ones are strived for.

[Joy]

you mean I really am ISTj?!?!?!??!

jk... my conscious agenda is to ensure the survival of myself and my family atm

[Scrummy]

If you talk to a lot of INTps and ENTjs, myself included (as being a devout atheist), you are not likely to find a whole lot of religious people. Personally, my beliefs are manifested in other areas, such as politics, what kinds of decisions are appropriate and what actions should be taken. When the conscious agenda of ENTjs reflects this sort of belief, as a belief of how things should work and how they should be managed, the conscious agenda of Ni fits better.

Yeah, it occurred to me that the functional representation of the agenda might make a more eloquent case for it. The ENTj I know best seems to be passionate about political and philosophical ideas that speak to his sense of ambition (the hidden agenda).

It applys to me too but I think the hidden agenda is also conscious. I am beginning to think all the quadra values are conscious.

I think it might be more conscious for some than for others, and of course depends on how it is manifest in action. For me, personally, I can say my hidden agenda is more a long-term internal motivation, the conscious agenda seems to be more a immediate drive that I make much more obvious to others.

This has some interesting implications for the workings of duality at least, and might be something to consider when typing people.

[Phaedrus]

If you talk to a lot of INTps and ENTjs, myself included (as being a devout atheist), you are not likely to find a whole lot of religious people.

You are perfectly right about that. And that's one reason why some of the socionic type descriptions of INTps are misleading and probably should be modified.

[Expat]

In your case, I wouldn't blame you because I can't for the life of me understand why anyone could have "to believe" on their agenda - conscious or hidden. That's probably the most poorly phrased of them.

Yes, I have the same suspicion. If there's a better phrasing or something out there that describes the ISFj/ISTj hidden agenda better, I'd like to take a look at it.

I'd say a better phrasing is "to be free of doubt".

[Olga]

I can identify myself with those agendas: to believe and to be whealthy but also wiht many others. I would say to believe is important for me - it gives me strengh. To be wealthy - escapism and security - nice to have but I am not silly to suggest that wealth is that important. Security is more important for me and it may be not associated with wealth directly but with all those unpredictable situations . In fact i can live on very little money and be happy probably because is my creative function which gives me a certain degree of ability to manage money well. My ex ENTJ - was very bad with money they went like water through his fingers. He did not care much though- enjoyed spending.

[Raver]

Removed.

[aestrivex]

If you talk to a lot of INTps and ENTjs, myself included (as being a devout atheist), you are not likely to find a whole lot of religious people.

You are perfectly right about that. And that's one reason why some of the socionic type descriptions of INTps are misleading and probably should be modified.

... you mean Ni descriptions, right?

i for one have never seen any type description which has stated that INTps or ENTjs are religious. mostly religious fervor is a quality present in descriptions. It probably has more to do with .

[Rocky]

Or maybe religion has more to do with religion.

[aestrivex]

i generally agree with statements like that, as i generally dont believe that types can be a catch-all for anything. however, i think that this about religion is probably something that might be determined by socionics type (whereas something like favorite color has nothing to do with type).

there will always be exceptions, but i think that if you took a general sample of the population of any type, you would find definite dichotomies as to what types are religious or not.

[Kristiina]

In your case, I wouldn't blame you because I can't for the life of me understand why anyone could have "to believe" on their agenda - conscious or hidden. That's probably the most poorly phrased of them.

Yes, I have the same suspicion. If there's a better phrasing or something out there that describes the ISFj/ISTj hidden agenda better, I'd like to take a look at it.

I'd say a better phrasing is "to be free of doubt".

I'm not sure if I understand this correctly.
Is this correct?: ISFjs want to be free of doubt, because they feel very bad when they are unsure of things. This is why ENTjs have to be very sure of themselves ("free of doubt"), to have the answers ISFjs need.

If this is true, then ENTjs and ISFjs are both trying to find out things (about world, theories, philosophy) and trying to be sure they are correct. Later in life ISFj will still be seeking for the truth while ENTj already knows where s/he stands. (Does this make sense or is there a flaw in that hypothesis?) How do you see the difference between a young ENTj and ISFj?

[Phaedrus]

... you mean Ni descriptions, right?

What's the difference? Here it is stated that INTps are religious people: http://www.socionics.com/advan/intjorintp.htm . If it is the that is the assumed cause of that or something else doesn't matter to me. The claim is misleading and probably false anyway.

[MysticSonic]

Ni types are "religious" in their beliefs.

[aestrivex]

... you mean Ni descriptions, right?

What's the difference? Here it is stated that INTps are religious people: http://www.socionics.com/advan/intjorintp.htm . If it is the that is the assumed cause of that or something else doesn't matter to me. The claim is misleading and probably false anyway.

as if anything that sergey ganin wrote were supposed to make any sense.

find me a description written by somebody that knows what they're talking about that says that INTps are religious.

[meatburger]

Hmm i would actually think religion would follow soniconics quite a lot however there could always be exceptions. I would guess that the Thinkers / types more prone to enjoy science would be less likely to be religous.

I wish i believed in Religion / hope there is something else but unfortunately i dont / never well until i see something i class as magical to convince me. I have no faith

EDIT: yeah i didn't read what Nifweed said but i obviously agree

[aestrivex]

Hmm i would actually think religion would follow soniconics quite a lot however there could always be exceptions. I would guess that the Thinkers / types more prone to enjoy science would be less likely to be religous.

I wish i believed in Religion / hope there is something else but unfortunately i dont / never well until i see something i class as magical to convince me. I have no faith

EDIT: yeah i didn't read what Nifweed said but i obviously agree

use your imagination! use your Ni!

then use your Te to shoot down whatever you come up with. after that you will have found peace with the subject.

[meatburger]

Lol niff.. I have Te?? OOOH yes i do there it is hehe..

Yeah have already been there done that. Even my weak thinking skills come to an athiest conclusion

[Creepy-pokeball]

Ni types are "religious" in their beliefs.

I was thinking about this today before reading this. It almost seems like both forms of N (Ni and Ne) and their omnivorous-McDonalds-fatty appetities devour so much generalized information that they dont let go as easily and tend not to "let things slide" which causes the seriousness (or religiousness!) of N's. Or Im on crack.

But as far as the true meaning of religion and types, I would say Herzy is fairly correct (within variation, of course).

[oyburger]

tend not to "let things slide" which causes the seriousness

that works for me when I do hold a belief on an issue, but I'm not religious. But that might just apply to me. I grew up in the South and if you're not religious than you're a freak, which made me reject religion immediatly

[aestrivex]

Lol niff.. I have Te?? OOOH yes i do there it is hehe..

Yeah have already been there done that. Even my weak thinking skills come to an athiest conclusion

good, you're on the right track.

however, being an ENFp, you're going to need some serious rehabilitation in order to completely annihilate Ne, which could potentially accept atheism as one of many equally plausible solutions. In order to avoid this fallacy, it is necessary that you spend the rest of your life in the kalahari desert studying the one true path of atheistic thought.

for an INTp such as myself, this is not necessary, but you are cursed with nonbelief and confusion if you do not fulfill the necessary step of sacrificing your worldly life.

have a nice day.

[Phaedrus]

as if anything that sergey ganin wrote were supposed to make any sense.

Yes, of course it is supposed to make sense. At least we have to assume that. Even if that, for some obscure reason, were not true, many people read what it written on his site and believe it. So, if what he writes is not true, many people are mislead anyway.

And, by the way, I can assure you that some things that he writes are believed by me to be true. So, I would say that your above statement is obviously false.

find me a description written by somebody that knows what they're talking about that says that INTps are religious.

What's your point? I don't know of any such description, but that is not relevant.

[Phaedrus]

Hmm i would actually think religion would follow soniconics quite a lot however there could always be exceptions. I would guess that the Thinkers / types more prone to enjoy science would be less likely to be religous.

Yes, I think that you are right. Almost every priest or theologian that I have seen on television or met in real life have been NF types. And we know that women are more prone to religious beliefs than men, a phenomenon that probably could be explained by the fact that about 2/3 of all women are F types and about 2/3 of all men are T types.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Oh really? You have 2 assumed and not proven "facts" that form a conclusion lol. I can easily counter that by saying that I noticed a trend of INFj's for Biology. Your second fact is true, however, but it does not mean anything within the context.

[snegledmaca]

Religion is not related to functions. Especially Ni. I find this reflective of that:

http://www.socionics.us/practice/spirituality.shtml

Almost every priest or theologian that I have seen on television or met in real life have been NF types. And we know that women are more prone to religious beliefs than men, a phenomenon that probably could be explained by the fact that about 2/3 of all women are F types and about 2/3 of all men are T types.

You talk shit. Every priest or theologian you've met has displayed NF qualities described by kiersay thereby making them NF even though they don't have to be, and women are not more prone to religion then men and 2/3 of women are not F types, but rather test as F types.

[Phaedrus]

You talk shit. Every priest or theologian you've met has displayed NF qualities described by kiersay thereby making them NF even though they don't have to be, and women are not more prone to religion then men and 2/3 of women are not F types, but rather test as F types.

Every one of your statements in this quote is false.

I have typed those priests and theologians, and I have not used tests in that process. If you use V.I, you will see for yourself that there are indeed many NF types among priests and theologians.

About 2/3 of all women are definitely F types. That is a fact that is recognized not only by MBTI practiotioners or Keirsey followers but also among all serious socionists. That they also test as F types is only another very strong argument in favour of that claim.

[meatburger]

In order to avoid this fallacy, it is necessary that you spend the rest of your life in the kalahari desert studying the one true path of atheistic thought.

Hmm living in the desert is not a possibility i had considered. Maybe i can become king of the bush men and learn how to hunt and kill and return back to my grass roots. Funnily enough i think living out in the desert all alone with just time to think would probably make me more likely to become religious.

have a nice day

I will

About 2/3 of all women are definitely F types.

If thats true it is a bit annoying for me as my duals and activity partners are in 1/3 of the female population. eek

[snegledmaca]

I have typed those priests and theologians, and I have not used tests in that process. If you use V.I, you will see for yourself that there are indeed many NF types among priests and theologians.

I don't trust V.I. for type identification. Only full knowledge of one's intimacy, of who they are. Perhaps just as an aid. That's why I doubt your assessment.

About 2/3 of all women are definitely F types. That is a fact that is recognized not only by MBTI practiotioners or Keirsey followers but also among all serious socionists. That they also test as F types is only another very strong argument in favour of that claim.

I don't trust those statistics. Mostly because they promote stereotypes. But I guess they could be right.
Got any online site or something for it?

[Phaedrus]

I don't trust V.I. for type identification.

But it definitely works in some cases. I suggest you investigate the matter before you make up your mind about it.

I don't trust those statistics. Mostly because they promote stereotypes.

That is a very bad argument. You are not entitled to question something just because you happen to dislike it. Only arguments based on reason count.

[Phaedrus]

Here is a link about some of the neuroscientific findings that support the claim that women are predominantly F types and men predominantly T types:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/featu...937913,00.html

The distinction between E-brains and S-brains is clearly related to F and T thinking and behaviour, and thus also related to type. Exactly how these things are interrelated is not established yet, though. More research needs to be done.

[Olga]

Faedrus, what is your type? I do not feel much of a critical thinking within you. How can you trust the writtten word like that?

Yes, of course it is supposed to make sense. At least we have to assume that. Even if that, for some obscure reason, were not true, many people read what it written on his site and believe it. So, if what he writes is not true, many people are mislead anyway.

And, by the way, I can assure you that some things that he writes are believed by me to be true. So, I would say that your above statement is obviously false.

Beliefes are good but they can be misleading -and this is not disputable.
We do not have to assume what others say is true. We have to find our own truth.

I do agree that any type can be relaigious or not religious but religion is
not one and the same as morality. You can be a higly moral person without being religious and on the opposite.

INTPs are devil's advocates, distance themselves from any point of view and throwing doubts everywhere - "shooting down" any bird that fly.
A true critical standpoint - we have to learn this from them.

I like this thread, lots of potential. It triggered a thought in me about quadras - I am going to write it sometime soon in Model B topic.

And I would like to discuss furhter the artical of Sergey Ganin about the difference about INTPs and INTJ: what is true and what is not? Does anybody wants to have a go? We could open a new topic for it.

@Niffweed: I respect your view about the colour theory. It does not state that there is a direct correspondence of colour and type and it is in the process of development. I wonder what are your two favourite coloursby the way?

[snegledmaca]

But it definitely works in some cases. I suggest you investigate the matter before you make up your mind about it.

Exactly. I don't trust V.I. because I don't know it.

I don't trust those statistics. Mostly because they promote stereotypes.

That is a very bad argument. You are not entitled to question something just because you happen to dislike it. Only arguments based on reason count.

Now THAT'S funny. I mean seriously. Think about what you just said.

I'm highly suspicious of every "scientific evidence" for stereotypes.