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Thread: Se as a valued function of Delta, and other unexpected conclusions

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    Default Se as a valued function of Delta, and other unexpected conclusions.

    I've become fascinated with the plus-and-minus version of Model A.



    This actually seems to be of huge, and underappreciated, significance. Am I misunderstanding something, and getting all excited over nothing? At first it seemed like this was saying that (for instance, with a SLI) their base function was -Si, which I am very well aware of. However, there's also that little thing which we skim over and ignore - the +Se next to it.

    The first dozen or so times that I read this chart, I just didn't know what to make of it. Since I don't speak Russian (yet), I only get the tiny scraps of information that people randomly throw at me. So I haven't seen any detailed explanation of why there are two functions in each box, why one of them is the opposite sign and vertedness of the other.

    So I'm sort of doing this all by myself. I'm trying to imagine what if I actually have +Se as some part of my base function. Perhaps it is an underdeveloped or underappreciated part or shadow or something. I am remembering many things from my past - for instance, when I was fourteen years old or so, I stumbled upon a book called 'When I Say No I Feel Guilty,' which was a book about assertiveness training. I eagerly read the book and learned the techniques. And in fact I have always been interested in techniques and methods for influencing people through communication, persuading people, and so on, and that's one reason why I'm interested in socionics.

    I also was always very interested in free will, very concerned when I didn't have it or when my freedom was taken away, and I also always had the feeling that I had a strong enough will to accomplish whatever I wanted (until a couple disasters happened, such as my becoming sick and then having 'unwanted mental phenomena,' but that was all later in life, not when I was young). I also like music that empowers me in a way that doesn't fit the descriptions of Si music (in Wikisocion), but seems to awaken something that better fits the description of Se.

    There are other examples that I'm sure I'll remember later.

    So after looking at this + and - chart with +Se as part of my base function somehow, I'm wondering if I actually have that side of me and didn't know what to look for or didn't know how to describe it. I want to know more about what it is, why there is a second function in the box, and whether anybody else can 'relate to' the 'other' function in your box on that chart.

    http://forum.socionix.com/topic/51-l..._fromsearch__1
    http://forum.socionix.com/topic/52-l..._fromsearch__1
    http://forum.socionix.com/topic/53-l..._fromsearch__1

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    Volitional sensorika
    ************************************************** ***********
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    + (short range)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A) the estimation of the external (form, physical force) and volitional qualities of individual person.

    B) the skill to defend its personal interests: piercing power, persistence, confidence in itself, hardness.

    C) the skill to mobilize itself and near environment to achieving personal of the goal presented, volitional pressure from bottom to top with the achievement of the objective.

    D) tendency toward the retention of the authority: defensive tactics - protection, counterattack.

    E) leadership (passive) in the small groups, the skill to estimate the arrangement of forces in such groups in the context of the leadership of individual people.

    F) tendency toward the possession by material values as to attribute of power.

    G) clear sensation itself and objects in the space, the organic nature of their arrangement: orientation in the specific locality (for example, city).

    H) tendency toward the journeys (?), lung is overcoming space.

    I) personal health as institute, force of will.

    J) insubordination to the external superior forces (dispute), the subordination to itself of weak.

    K) subordination to internal force.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    - (distant distance)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    01) the estimation of the external (form, physical force) and volitional qualities of man, in the context of the capability of the latter for leadership and control.

    02) the skill to defend the collective interests: piercing power, persistence, confidence in itself.

    03) the assertion of its interests due to the collective: collective interests prevail and overgrow into the personal.

    04) the skill to mobilize the large groups of people for achieving of the goal presented: exactingness, control, volitional pressure from top to bottom, the power methods of achievement of the objective.

    05) the assumption of power, leadership: offensive tactics - attack, aggression, attack, initiative.

    06) marginal importance to the possession of atributikoy authority.

    07) the skill to estimate the arrangement of forces of the opposing groups: subordination to the external superior forces (collaboration), the destruction of weak.

    08 ) the clear sensation of space around itself and objects, the sensation of the influence of space on the objects.

    09) capability for overcoming of elements.

    10) health as public institute.

    ********************************************
    http://forum.socionix.com/topic/51-l..._fromsearch__1

    That quote comes from that page.

    This is still very interesting and important to me and I'm paying attention to it. It explains a lot of things that I valued and admired in myself and others, but could not explain as Si.

    For instance, Andy Dufresne breaks out of Shawshank Prison. He uses his sheer will over years and years to break through a vulnerability in the wall. I don't call that Si, I call that Se. And it doesn't make sense to say that he's just using his ignore function, Se, and that he doesn't enjoy using his ignore function, and nobody in Delta admires him for using his ignore function. (By the way, I was imagining that Andy Dufresne was a SLI. Other people might disagree with me on that typing. So let's pretend that I am Andy Dufresne and we can all assume that I'm a SLI doing the same thing he did. Some other people might call him an LSI or something else.)

    Instead, I, and other people, admire him for breaking out of jail. He was wrongly imprisoned and he was innocent. The jail was corrupt and they were not giving him a chance. His life was in danger and he was being physically attacked. Another man was killed whenever he gave evidence that Andy was innocent. So it makes sense that Andy would want to get out and run away and hide, to save his own life, and because he didn't deserve to be in jail.

    But Andy didn't break through the wall by sitting there and feeling the sensation of hunger in his stomach (Si). He broke through the wall by looking at external physical objects, and noticing how they were vulnerable. And I'm cheering him on. I'm not sitting there going 'Yuck, you're using my ignore function!' Instead I'm going 'Yay! That's what I would want to do too!'

    However, I can imagine that maybe there is a slightly different version of Se. Perhaps when Se is used in the way described as Se-, that's my ignore function, and that's the one that I dislike. In fact, the author in the article quoted describes the id functions as part of a 'phobia.' That is, in fact, my phobia, my fear. I don't like the law, I don't like the government, I don't like the idea that large groups of people are going to gang up on me and destroy me (well, nobody likes that idea). And in fact, I can't even talk about these ideas without sounding biased, because socionics is real: we have valued functions, and we have disvalued functions, and yeah, there will be things that I genuinely don't like at all.

    So I am starting to make peace with the idea that Se+ is part of my base function, and I'm looking for it and understanding it. It makes so much more sense that way. I can see it in myself and in my past behavior and in my political beliefs. It makes sense to say that I'm able to use Se+ and have it feel natural and enjoyable instead of being an unpleasant, disvalued function that I only use because I have to. It also makes sense to say that there is a 'different kind' or 'different flavor' of Se, which I dislike and disvalue, and that's in my ignore function, alongside Si+.

    It's true, however, that I don't use it as much as Si, or that I am not as aware of it, but I'm not sure about this theory or how the plus and minus signs are supposed to work - I get the impression that the one on the right is supposed to 'support' or 'work with' the one on the left. The one on the left is the most valued function, and the one on the right is there to support it and help it get what it needs. It fits so well with my political beliefs.

    I only know that it makes me 'feel better' or 'feel more balanced' to view myself as somebody who uses both Si and Se in a particular way. The whole idea works better for me than just saying that I only prefer Si and nothing but that.

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    I don't think a plus means it's valued.

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    Yeah, I think from what I read, they picked the plus and minus signs just as a way of showing that there were two slightly different types of that function, but you're right, it doesn't mean it's valued, and it doesn't mean 'good' or 'bad.' The plus sign means that something is 'short term' or 'short distance' or something like that, and the minus sign means it's 'long term' or 'long distance' or something. But it didn't have to be plus and minus, it could have been any signs at all.

    The only reason that I'm thinking it's valued is because + is in my base function to the right of -. I know that supposedly the SLI, and delta, values Si. But we don't usually say that they value Se at all. So this plus and minus thing is saying there are actually two kinds of Si, two kinds of Se, and all that, and we value one kind and we don't like the other kind. But you can value something that has a minus sign. The way to know if it's valued is if it's in your top row of boxes (the ego block) or the third row down (the super-id block). That was what I meant by valued.

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    I've not given much thought to how the +/- signs manifest for each function. I saw it simply as a more sophisticated way of saying that Se for instance is valued in Beta and Gamma but not in Delta. Delta for instance values: +Te/-Si/-Ne/+Fi and... -Ti/+Se/-Ni/+Fe according to the chart? I'm not sure how it's supposed to be interpreted.

    Anyway, instead of saying that there are two types of Se and two types of Si, the other devalued Se is simply.. valued Si, since the extroverted function is always paired with its introverted counterpart. I'm inclined to dismiss it as unnecessary complicating. YMMV.

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    I think the plus minus signs have to do with means versus ends. And I agree that this seems like complicating a system just to explain very specific behaviors. Model A should already be able to explain which functions are used as mean and ends.
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    Quote Originally Posted by InkStrider View Post
    Anyway, instead of saying that there are two types of Se and two types of Si, the other devalued Se is simply.. valued Si, since the extroverted function is always paired with its introverted counterpart. I'm inclined to dismiss it as unnecessary complicating. YMMV.
    Type this in the plus and minus
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

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    I'm not sure if that char has anything to do with +/- as far as DarkAngelFireWolf69 and the +/- hypothesis.

    http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Plus_and_minus

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/30-plus-minus-by-Victor-DarkAngelFireWolf69

    I think there may be a different version of +/- using the same terminology. +/- is based on the different expression of a function based on how it is blocked in the Ego/ID/Super-ego/Super-ID + !- + , and so on. I've included the wiki references and the cms reference on this site for any additional research.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I'm not sure if that char has anything to do with +/- as far as DarkAngelFireWolf69 and the +/- hypothesis.

    http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Plus_and_minus

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/30-plus-minus-by-Victor-DarkAngelFireWolf69

    I think there may be a different version of +/- using the same terminology. +/- is based on the different expression of a function based on how it is blocked in the Ego/ID/Super-ego/Super-ID + !- + , and so on. I've included the wiki references and the cms reference on this site for any additional research.
    They are the same, that's pretty clear. The approaches may not be the same though, DarkAngelFireWolf69 looks at the individual functions as he can theorize the effects of Process/Result that way. But like labocat stated, containing the functions as Taciturn/Narrator is a much better approach.
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    Model B is pretty easy to deduce.

    Using LII as an example. If Ti and Ne interact together and create a specialized set of functioning(-Ti and +Ne) the 7th and 8th function in model A would also create the specialized subset -Te and +Ni. The 7th and 8th functions are considered the universalized "shadow" functions of the 1st and 2nd functions. The shadow not only has to exist on the opposite plane(external v.s. internal), but on the same plane(internal v.s. internal or external v.s. external) otherwise the model doesn't make sense or is incomplete. The shadow of -Ti internally would be +Ti and the shadow of +Ne externally would be -Ne.

    To sum up what I'm trying to say, Model A isn't mathematically coherent.

    The only way that Model A would make sense is if the functions themselves are both introverted and extroverted, in which case the intended notation is horrible. That obviously isn't the case though as the functions are actually defined via information elements, as Augusta basically summed up the functions as being facets of reality by assigning the functions fixed points of reference.

    = internal statics of objects (potentiality of object)
    = external statics of objects ( outward traits of objects)
    = external dynamics of objects (external activity of objects)
    = internal dynamics of objects (internal activity of objects)
    = internal dynamics of fields(intangible connections between processes separated in time and space)
    = external dynamics of fields(tangible connections between processes happening in one place and time)
    = external statics of fields(logical relationships between objects)
    = internal statics of fields (subjective relationships between objects)



    These are valued aspects of reality for every single individual.

    can be roughly summed up as how the environment affects ones internal state. Everybody values their senses, as senses are a facet of reality that connects to all the other facets of reality. Everybody basically goes in 1 of 2 directions when it comes to senses(though really it probably is a combination of the 2 on different levels of the psyche). They try to balance their environment and create a sense of homeostasis(-), or they try to experience the new and original experiences(+). You cannot value or devalue completely as it is just a facet of existence.
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    internal dynamics of fields is just... fail. Not saying that it's not descriptive, but it suggests that Ni can't be understood. Ni is simply, the effects of Te and Fe.

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    Hacking your soul since the beginning of time Hitta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    internal dynamics of fields is just... fail. Not saying that it's not descriptive, but it suggests that Ni can't be understood. Ni is simply, the effects of Te and Fe.
    I didn't write that, I just copy and pasted it. The point I was trying to make is she defined the functions as aspects of reality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    You cannot value or devalue completely as it is just a facet of existence.
    Actually, Model A deals with this. Models A and B just do it a different way. In Model A, the non-quadra functions aren't completely devalued; they're more de-emphasized. Basically, the valued functions are those one uses confidently oneself in social situations, or seeks in others to complete an essential side of oneself. The non-quadra functions are also used in day-to-day existence.

    When you break things down further into +/-, the same basically situation is there....both sides are part of the complete life experience. For example, suppose you're correct that +Si is about experiencing new and original experiences and -Si is creating a sense of homeostasis. Surely a well-balanced, complete person creates homeostasis sometimes and seeks new experiences other times.

    So again, just as in model A, the only reasonable explanation that's left is that "well, people emphasize one more than the other"....so the "problem" (if it is a problem) remains, only the number of functions is now doubled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    Actually, Model A deals with this. Models A and B just do it a different way. In Model A, the non-quadra functions aren't completely devalued; they're more de-emphasized. Basically, the valued functions are those one uses confidently oneself in social situations, or seeks in others to complete an essential side of oneself. The non-quadra functions are also used in day-to-day existence.

    When you break things down further into +/-, the same basically situation is there....both sides are part of the complete life experience. For example, suppose you're correct that +Si is about experiencing new and original experiences and -Si is creating a sense of homeostasis. Surely a well-balanced, complete person creates homeostasis sometimes and seeks new experiences other times.

    So again, just as in model A, the only reasonable explanation that's left is that "well, people emphasize one more than the other"....so the "problem" (if it is a problem) remains, only the number of functions is now doubled.
    Actually no, Model A hasn't ever been represented in that way. The whole concept of "Day to Day" crap that you are throwing out here is incompatible with the model of information metabolism. Model A is an external/internal and conscious/unconscious model that depicts how the human psyche takes in information and converts it into different forms across different layers of the psyche. You don't sweep floors with your POLR or jack off with your Role Function.The model is a depiction of information goes in and comes out.
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    Hi all I take this thread because I found some mismatching information on plus and minus stuff... For example here : http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...lation-Model-A
    At the end of the text there is the example of ILE wich have +Ne ego -Ni ID.
    Just after, the table say that function of same type have same sign in individual, eg +Fe ego +Fi ID, +Te super ID +Ti super ego, ect.
    Ive seen many other place where this conflicting information arise.

    where is the truth ?
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    I was reading the socionics definition and discussing last night with another fairly new to socionics person.... this may mean i could do with extra input. I was looking into the assertive/aggressive aspect. I understand it's not only this and do contribute to my understanding if you care to.

    As far as i can tell i have a pretty good grasp of Se, it's not a natural state for me but i can be plenty assertive when i deem it necessary. I am naturally conflict avoidant but when in conflict....when i believe something is worth fighting for, I ardently stick to my assertive guns...and really ...you may want to take cover when this happens as I'm pretty unstoppable. It's not something i give much time/thought to, i know i am capable but i prefer not to go there (there are many preferable methods i would employ first) unless i deem it absolutely necessary.

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

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