A friend/coworker

[Minde]

We work on staff together at a Bible camp for kids and have interacted in that context going on four summers. I have some ideas on what type she may be, but I'd like to hear your opinion.

She is a quietly sociable person. She is good at understanding and working with the emotions of others. She has very good timing and it seems she always knows the right thing to say, especially when a situation is emotionally charged. It's amazing to see her work with a group of people – getting their attention, keeping it, and then releasing it. She is a good motivator, but not so much toward excitement and action as toward introspection and peaceful, joyful emotion. She's subdued, and yet at the same time very friendly. She doesn't seek the spotlight, but she gracefully handles the pressure and responsibility when they're given to her.

She likes to make people laugh, and can tell stories well, using lots of facial expressions and humor. She knows how to make the simplest event into something to laugh about. Even scary things can be made funny (though she never makes light of people's problems).

When she teaches, she is very good at analogies and object lessons. She can take all sorts of average happenings and turn them into something to learn from. Though she isn't into stuff like philosophy or advanced mathematics, her logic is always sound – often more so than those who brag about their smarts or thinking skills.

She has good taste in style (at least, in my opinion). Not flashy, but with a good sense of what looks nice. She's not particularly athletic. She said that bothered her when she was younger, but she's learned to accept it. She'd prefer to read a book, she says. Despite this, she's not overweight or even out of shape and she does like to do exercises like Pilates or Yoga.

She is quiet; she doesn't jump around, make a lot of noise, or push herself on people. But she is very open to talking and has a calming, encouraging effect that people seem to crave. She is very open about herself and her life. Though it's not like she brags about it, she doesn't try to hide the dark spots in her life or her family. She is humble and genuine. This, I think, makes her very approachable. However, despite this, I sense that her deeper friendships are fewer and further between.

We get along well. Though she's a year younger than me, I look up to her and admire her eloquence and openness. Actually, I often feel awed by her knowledge, her ability to open up even the hardest hearts, and her unselfish dedication to the people in her ministry. We've worked closely together in the past, which makes our relationship a little deeper and more comfortable. I think she feels like she can reveal to me more of her tiredness and negative emotions than she can to many other people that we work with, which I don't mind. I actually like it, because it's an opportunity for me to build her up and give back to her what she so freely gives to others. She has said that I have a calming effect on her and stroke her ego (the last bit was said half-jokingly). I enjoy learning from her, laughing at her humor, and encouraging her when I can.

[maze]

=)

[Expat]

She doesn't sound irrational. Is she moody, alternating between joyful and sulking?

Also, not INFp if Minde is INFj as I think she is.

I'd say either ISFj or INFj herself.

[Minde]

No, she's pretty even-tempered. I've never really seen her lose control, though it's easy to tell when she's tired or stressed from her facial expression and posture. Knowing her as well as I do, I can pick up on the finer nuances of her emotions that I think many other people gloss over. But, they're nuances, not blatant changes or fluctuations. Moody is not a word I'd use to describe her. In fact, she always seems to have an inner sense of peace and joy even when everything's going wrong, which I attribute to her close and loving relationship with God. I know that she relies on Him for love, support, creativity, etc.

Remember R? We typed her as ESFj. Her emotions are much stronger and... how do I put it...? Like solid blocks of vivid color that last, and then change (though if you look closely, you can see tiny signs of other emotions and reactions – suppressed or unconscious, I think). My friend from camp (let's call her B), on the other hand, her emotions are softer and... more intermingled. She can feel several things at once, though more gently and a little deeper. I'm not sure if that makes any sense... or if it is even useful.


@ maize - Thank you for your sweet reply! Whenever you reply to me, I always smile and feel all warm and fuzzy! You have the ability to be very encouraging and affirming.

[Expat]

Then, if you don't think she's of the same type as you, I'd say ISFj.

[Minde]

I don't think I said that she wasn't the same type as me. Only that I had some theories and that I wondered what other people thought. Is your first reaction that she's INFj? Or ISFj? Why?

[Expat]

She seems to be a feeler and rational. As you yourself described, her emotional expression is much more subdued than that of R -- you said it's more about nuances.

That, and a the general way you described her, especially taking into account that you are INFj yourself, suggests another dominant, so INFj or ISFj. That is in agreement with the overall impression of her personality in the sense that there is nothing obviously not INFj or ISFj about her.

Between the two, I think ISFj is more likely.

[Minde]

What are some ways to tell the difference between the two types?

[Expat]

Talk about where the two of you are most similar and most different.

[Joy]

She is a quietly sociable person. She is good at understanding and working with the emotions of others. She has very good timing and it seems she always knows the right thing to say, especially when a situation is emotionally charged. It's amazing to see her work with a group of people – getting their attention, keeping it, and then releasing it. She is a good motivator, but not so much toward excitement and action as toward introspection and peaceful, joyful emotion.

She sounds more like a Fe type to me. A matrue ISFp perhaps. Not ISFj. ISFjs feel socially comfortable among close friends.

Irrationals aren't always moody, and rationals can be. wtf.

[Expat]

She sounds more like a Fe type to me. A matrue ISFp perhaps. Not ISFj. ISFjs feel socially comfortable among close friends.

Irrationals aren't always moody, and rationals can be. wtf.

Irrationals aren't always moody, but ISFps very often are.

From the way Minde compared her with R, and a general description of subdued emotions, I thought she was not likely to be dominant. ISFjs prefer close friends - and that is the impression I got from the description - but they can also use very well in professional situations, which is the scenario Minde described.

[Joy]

She is a quietly sociable person. She is good at understanding and working with the emotions of others. She has very good timing and it seems she always knows the right thing to say, especially when a situation is emotionally charged. It's amazing to see her work with a group of people – getting their attention, keeping it, and then releasing it. She is a good motivator, but not so much toward excitement and action as toward introspection and peaceful, joyful emotion.

still sounds like Fe to me... I could see Fi doing this professionally, but I think an ENFp would fit the description better than ISFj. For an ISFj to be that good with large groups of people and good at manipulating the emotions of others is just as unlikely as an ISFp not being moody. I think INFj is also more likely than ISFj.

[Minde]

Here are some more differences between us:

She is much more comfortable talking about stuff that I'd avoid or be more cautions of. For example, she can comfortably talk about sex or relationships in a mixed group (of Christians, I might add - a notoriously prudish bunch). She is also more likely to be silly or theatrical, exaggeratedly mimicking people or striking poses. Not that she does this a lot or that this is even a major characteristic of hers – she's just a little more "average" in this respect, compared with me. I avoid making scenes like the plague. She's a little more open and comfortable with herself.

She's also studying to become a nurse, which I could never do. She can handle the blood and guts; I can't.

And, like I said before, she is very good at picking up on people's emotions and then effectively working with them, more so than me. I miss stuff that she seems to instinctively pick up on. She sees through other people's eyes better than I can (at least, so it seems to me). Not only can she see through other people's eyes, she has the ability to get people to understand and agree with her. I'd almost call it manipulation, except that word has so many negative connotations. She is one of the most unselfish people I have ever met. Her goal is to help people where they're at, to reflect God's unconditional love, to offer them healing and hope. She moves people to their benefit, not hers.

Again, as I said before, she is eloquent. Whereas I often stumble over my words, she seems to have just the right thing to say. She can tell stories much better than I can. She'll recollect and recount just the right amount of details to give the maximum effect (generally humorously).

She tends to be a little more people focused, while I'm slightly more task-oriented. My first thought might me, "Is everything working right?" Her first thought might be, "Who needs to be loved?" (particularly with regard to those she feels responsible for).

I'm also a little more competitive than her.

Please remember that the differences I just described are between herself and myself, not between her and the rest of the world's population. In general, I'd say that our two personalities are more similar than dissimilar.

As far as her friendships go, I'd say that she doesn't have a close circle of friends, at least outside of her family. She lives in another state, so I only get to see her during the summers and don't know a lot about her personal life apart from camp. However, usually when you talk with people about their home and school, certain names will keep popping up in their stories with some regularity. This indicates the people they're closest to or have the most interaction with. When she talks about her home and school, she'll tell stories about the people she's interacted with, but only her family members have names or show up in the tales with any consistency.

On the other hand, for the past couple of years she would often sit with me and a couple others during our staff meetings.* Now that she's in a leadership position this summer, I can tell she's trying to avoid favoritism. She's been sitting next to me a lot less, though I can tell it's not because she suddenly doesn't like me anymore.

Before I started this topic, I was thinking that she was probably Fe dominant, simply because she works so well with people. Her intuition, both Ne and Ni, seem strong, too. But those are just guesses and I'm, obviously, open to suggestions.






* Those meetings were way too much fun. As she likes to point out, we were the biggest trouble makers (giggling, whispering, making comments, etc.), but we always got away with it because nobody would ever suspect us. Us - the two sweetest, most well-raised, innocent girls on staff! They'd scan the group to find where the noise was coming from and totally overlook us.

[Expat]

Before I started this topic, I was thinking that she was probably Fe dominant, simply because she works so well with people. Her intuition, both and, seem strong, too. But those are just guesses and I'm, obviously, open to suggestions.

Why do you say her intuition seems strong?

How similar - or different - is she from R?

Does she get along with, or even know, those other people we discussed?

[Minde]

As I understand the two functions, Ne has to do with possibilities, interconnections, and understanding the essence of something, while Ni has more to do with the ability to observe the direction of something, trends, and a sense of timing. B can take one circumstance and compare it with another, drawing out important connections between the two. She also has a good sense of timing, particularly conversationally. Hmm... I'm not sure how else to describe her Ne/Ni other than to maybe describe some of the differences between her and other people, like R.

Compared with R, who has relatively weak Ni/Ne, B can keep up with my leaps in logic. I don't have the same trouble explaining the connections between my ideas like I do with R. Now, I love R dearly and I know I can count on complete acceptance from her no matter what, but I'm learning that it isn't always a good idea to just blurt out whatever it is I'm thinking at the moment, particularly if I'm brainstorming or studying. She's so supportive that she almost always agrees or attempts to follow along with me in my train of thinking, even if what I said just contradicted her. The only problem is that she'll often end up agreeing with something completely different than what I had intended. It's kinda funny, but also a little frustrating at times. Though I don't have as close a relationship with B where I have the freedom to be more transparent with my thoughts, when I do communicate the ideas as they sequence through my head, she keeps up a lot better and responds in kind, continuing my train where I left off. Though, where she takes it seems a lot better than where I was going with it. But, my point is that she and I tend to process ideas more similarly than do R and I.

R is much more tense and sensitive over deadlines and requirements than is B. She is particularly upset by last-minute schedule changes. Just this last week was a perfect example. R also works as a counselor at the same camp I do, and during our staff training, every member of the counseling team had to come up with a certain number of Bible studies by a certain date. As it turned out, most of the time that had been set aside for preparation was turned into flex time for overlong meetings and extra rec time. I wasn't too worried, confident that the leadership wouldn't be that cruel and would provide some extra time for us to finish them (which they did). R, on the other hand, was completely demoralized. I've never seen her break down like that, and it seemed that it didn't matter how many times I tried to assure her that it was going to be okay. Though B wasn't directly affected by this particular time-crunch, I've seen plenty of other times where she took similar changes and challenges in stride, concerned and even a little stressed maybe, but definitely not to the degree that R was.

R is the type of person who likes to have a solid block of alone time to study and process things. B seems more comfortable with interruptions and dialog as she works out her thoughts and plans.

R is a little more reclusive than B. B seems more comfortable spending lots of time with groups of people, whereas R definitely needs a certain amount of time away from people to "recharge" as she puts it. It's quite normal for R to leave a gathering early to go home to read or sleep. She needs that alone time to remain sane. While B is no means a party animal, she's more likely to give up her quiet time to spend it with people.

R is more excitable than B. For example, R will greet someone's happiness with a big smile, an exclamation, and a funny little happy dance, like hopping up and down. B will smile, too, and give some sort of exclamation, but she'll be more subdued, like she's taking it into account along with everything else.

R likes younger kids; B seems to connect better with the older ones.

They do know each other from camp, but B doesn't know anybody else that we've discussed. Though they don't exactly hang out a lot together, the two of them seem to get along fine. In fact, R has said that she feels more comfortable approaching B as a leader than she does her own superior (who she describes as too "syrupy" and fake - though she feels guilty for feeling like that).

So, is that any help?

By the by, how are my descriptions? Is there anything that I should cut out or add when I'm talking about people? (I'm afraid I'm a little long.)

[Expat]

Actually what I found most interesting about this is how this fully confirms R as ESFj.

Now, I love R dearly and I know I can count on complete acceptance from her no matter what, but I'm learning that it isn't always a good idea to just blurt out whatever it is I'm thinking at the moment, particularly if I'm brainstorming or studying. She's so supportive that she almost always agrees or attempts to follow along with me in my train of thinking, even if what I said just contradicted her. The only problem is that she'll often end up agreeing with something completely different than what I had intended.

Yes that is a characteristic of focus in R.

It's kinda funny, but also a little frustrating at times. Though I don't have as close a relationship with B where I have the freedom to be more transparent with my thoughts, when I do communicate the ideas as they sequence through my head, she keeps up a lot better and responds in kind, continuing my train where I left off. Though, where she takes it seems a lot better than where I was going with it. But, my point is that she and I tend to process ideas more similarly than do R and I.

This suggests identity or mirror, but perhaps also comparative.

R is much more tense and sensitive over deadlines and requirements than is B. She is particularly upset by last-minute schedule changes. Just this last week was a perfect example. R also works as a counselor at the same camp I do, and during our staff training, every member of the counseling team had to come up with a certain number of Bible studies by a certain date. As it turned out, most of the time that had been set aside for preparation was turned into flex time for overlong meetings and extra rec time. I wasn't too worried, confident that the leadership wouldn't be that cruel and would provide some extra time for us to finish them (which they did). R, on the other hand, was completely demoralized. I've never seen her break down like that, and it seemed that it didn't matter how many times I tried to assure her that it was going to be okay. Though B wasn't directly affected by this particular time-crunch, I've seen plenty of other times where she took similar changes and challenges in stride, concerned and even a little stressed maybe, but definitely not to the degree that R was.

This further confirms R as ESFj but speaks against B as ISFj since due to their insecure ISFjs also dislike last-minute changes.

R is the type of person who likes to have a solid block of alone time to study and process things. B seems more comfortable with interruptions and dialog as she works out her thoughts and plans.

Perhaps indications of the same thing.

R is a little more reclusive than B. B seems more comfortable spending lots of time with groups of people, whereas R definitely needs a certain amount of time away from people to "recharge" as she puts it. It's quite normal for R to leave a gathering early to go home to read or sleep. She needs that alone time to remain sane. While B is no means a party animal, she's more likely to give up her quiet time to spend it with people..

Pop MBTI would say that R is more "introverted" than B which would go against ESFj for R and IXFj for B. But in Socionics it's more related to the compliant-obstinate dichotomy which fits ESFj as more obstinate and IXFj as more compliant - but only ethical subtype in the case of ISFj; altogether another indication for INFj.

R is more excitable than B. For example, R will greet someone's happiness with a big smile, an exclamation, and a funny little happy dance, like hopping up and down. B will smile, too, and give some sort of exclamation, but she'll be more subdued, like she's taking it into account along with everything else...

Yes R is more focused than B.

R likes younger kids; B seems to connect better with the older ones.

I think it means something for R as ESFj but not much for B.

They do know each other from camp, but B doesn't know anybody else that we've discussed. Though they don't exactly hang out a lot together, the two of them seem to get along fine. In fact, R has said that she feels more comfortable approaching B as a leader than she does her own superior (who she describes as too "syrupy" and fake - though she feels guilty for feeling like that).

Interesting that she says that since R is herself.

I think that the most likely solution is that you're both INFj, perhaps of different subtypes but then it becomes messy. Perhaps she's split and you are intuitive.

By the by, how are my descriptions? Is there anything that I should cut out or add when I'm talking about people? (I'm afraid I'm a little long.)

They're fine

[Minde]

Actually what I found most interesting about this is how this fully confirms R as ESFj.

Ah, the ironies of life.

They do know each other from camp, but B doesn't know anybody else that we've discussed. Though they don't exactly hang out a lot together, the two of them seem to get along fine. In fact, R has said that she feels more comfortable approaching B as a leader than she does her own superior (who she describes as too "syrupy" and fake - though she feels guilty for feeling like that).

Interesting that she says that since R is herself.

Hmm, yes. I have also had a little difficulty connecting with R's superior (who also happens to be my leader). We mutually appreciate and respect each other, but there is a barrier that I haven't quite figured out how to cross.

I think that the most likely solution is that you're both INFj, perhaps of different subtypes but then it becomes messy. Perhaps she's split and you are intuitive.

How does it make it messy?

By the by, how are my descriptions? Is there anything that I should cut out or add when I'm talking about people? (I'm afraid I'm a little long.)

They're fine

[Expat]

Hmm, yes. I have also had a little difficulty connecting with R's superior (who also happens to be my leader). We mutually appreciate and respect each other, but there is a barrier that I haven't quite figured out how to cross.

If s/he's also , and R doesn't care much for him/her, s/he could be INFp or ENFj, with INFp more likely. In that case s/he be either your quasi-identical or contrary, neither of which is very good.

I think that the most likely solution is that you're both INFj, perhaps of different subtypes but then it becomes messy. Perhaps she's split and you are intuitive.

How does it make it messy?

I tried to figure out your subtypes by looking at (1) the Gulenko descriptions of subtypes, (2) your functional preference and (3) the differences in the patterns of your behavior, following dichotomies. They seem to point at different directions *shrugs* which perhaps merely suggests that you're actually very similar and the differences are the normal ones between individuals.

[Minde]

Hmm, yes. I have also had a little difficulty connecting with R's superior (who also happens to be my leader). We mutually appreciate and respect each other, but there is a barrier that I haven't quite figured out how to cross.

If s/he's also , and R doesn't care much for him/her, s/he could be INFp or ENFj, with INFp more likely. In that case s/he be either your quasi-identical or contrary, neither of which is very good.

I suppose that "syrupy" would be one (albeit slightly negative) way to describe her (I'll call her V). She smiles and uses a lot of sweet emotions, even when she isn't exactly happy. I think that's what bothers R the most, because in contrast R is much more transparent in her emotions. It's pretty easy to tell when R's not happy, even when she tries to "pretend." V also tends to play favorites a little, though I think it's unconsciously done and not particularly serious. I personally don't think it's that much of a problem because V is quite fair in group decisions. It's just that she clicks a lot better with some people more than others, showering her bubbly emotions on the people she really likes, especially in her time off. Since I don't really want all of that poured on me, it's lack doesn't bother me too much. Also, since I have "seniority," she'll tend to give me a little more leeway and freedom than she does most of the others. So, all of this to say that while V and I don't have a close connection, we end up working better together than does she and R.

I tried to figure out your subtypes by looking at (1) the Gulenko descriptions of subtypes, (2) your functional preference and (3) the differences in the patterns of your behavior, following dichotomies. They seem to point at different directions *shrugs* which perhaps merely suggests that you're actually very similar and the differences are the normal ones between individuals.

It may be that she has just developed various areas of her personality better than I have. Also, some of what she seems to be better at might just be learned skills. For example, her excellent ability to teach and share in front of a group may have something to do with her father being a pastor. Coming from that type of family, she probably had more experience observing and practicing how to work with people.

And where would I be able to find those subtype descriptions?

[Expat]

And where would I be able to find those subtype descriptions?

The Gulenko descriptions are here:

http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2000

Dostoyevsky (INFJ)
Humanist is initial (intuitive)
(reconciling - from the Eng. conciliator)

It feels well people, immediately sees, who to it approaches on the views, but who no. It loves to be in the narrow to the circle of friends and adherents, to discuss with them the novelties of literature, skill, humanities. It is frequently acted unsure of itself, it occurs and it is scattered. The aim is humanitarian activity, but it can work in the region of service. It realizes well itself both in medicine and in pedagogy. It knows how to reconcile those disputing, to smooth out sharp situations. It knows how to create pleasant situation, comfort in the house. It dresses with the taste, frequently it follows the mode.

Humanist is terminal (ethical)
(confessor - from the Eng. confessor)

Confessor, is sincerely religious or adheres to any ethical system, nenavyazchiv and it is restrained, it is asketichen, it is strict to himself and by others for the disturbance of moral standards. Neinitsiativen. It is little interested in the fact that it is not connected with its persuasions. In the work it is sluggish and scrupulous. With it it is possible to have a talk, to pour soul, to obtain simple, but efficient council. Appearance - samouglublennost', asceticism; the internal stressed life is examined in the extrinsic ethos.

I don't think they are very helpful for differentiating you, unless I missed something. My general impression is that you are farther along the intuitive scale than her; as I said you may be intuitive and she, split or slightly ethical subtype.

I think V is more likely INFp than ENFj but I can't really make a good case for it.