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Thread: Fi PoLR - Misunderstood

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Oh.. yeah I have known a small handful of weirdo ILEs like that. Fi polr plus not understanding social boundaries with women especially, or thinking it’s a joke. Good job I guess.
    Yeah. Can't SLE's be like that I wonder? Or does being Se lead manifest itself differently regarding Fi polr?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Something View Post
    Yeah. Can't SLE's be like that I wonder? Or does being Se lead manifest itself differently regarding Fi polr?
    I think being Se lead helps with understanding physical boundaries more and why/how they work for SLE guys, even if they aren’t women. They are less likely to exhibit bizarre or unusual behaviors even if Se is stereotypically “rapey”. I think Se guys wait for more socially opportune ways to act aggressive if they do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Cool, I relate. A need for an intense, powerful, basically spiritual type connection experience. I can see how it relates to how you mentioned that you find Ni more fulfilling.
    This is interesting, for myself I think I relate too, but I'm like, this without Fe is worth nothing to me anymore (was always true but I just didn't realise), but also Fe is worth nothing to me without this Ni stuff. The latter was always true too and I was always aware of it, I'm just reminding myself of the former more now. In line with that, I'm finding that I've been in romantic relationships with Ni egos more than with Fe egos so the Ni holds the appeal more obviously or faster than Fe or something. I'll latch onto someone real fast if I see their Ni as being good/interesting/tickling/fascinating me enough. So that's how long term relationship happened with Ni ego, but only shorter stuff with Fe ego. Really I don't care if it's just Fe, Fe me all you want, I don't care without Ni, lol, we can hang out and have fun but no quality Ni, no actual closeness, no taking you seriously. Besides just the Ni stimulation, it's also very important ofc whether we share the same vision, that decides everything obviously. But without a quality enough emotional connection that doesn't get to be lived enough. Where your and the other person's character plays a major role in the dynamics too.

    So for me it's kinda hard to say what I find more fulfilling, Fe or Ni, both are needed for a truly quality relationship for me, period.
    Last edited by grumpyvic81; 04-27-2020 at 02:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Something View Post
    Yeah. Can't SLE's be like that I wonder? Or does being Se lead manifest itself differently regarding Fi polr?
    I find myself reading boundaries and body language very well... I constantly analyze the body language tone and expressions of the person im interacting with to make sure I'm not being too much with my fi polr.. tho when I meet other betas. Also certain gammas and alphas I can just be myself without offending them and its awesome. But we are definitely "too much" together for people who are less brash or loud.. my ile friend likes to crack meaner jokes than me. Its refreshing to me personally I don't get offended but he's worse with his fi polr than me to others

    My LSE friend has the meanest humor of anyone I know but he's the only delta I know this way. He also never says it to the person unless he's very comfortable with them . While the ILE and I have no issue roasting strangers and actually used to team up and bully kids together when we were younger lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingslayer View Post
    I find myself reading boundaries and body language very well... I constantly analyze the body language tone and expressions of the person im interacting with to make sure I'm not being too much with my fi polr.. tho when I meet other betas. Also certain gammas and alphas I can just be myself without offending them and its awesome. But we are definitely "too much" together for people who are less brash or loud.. my ile friend likes to crack meaner jokes than me. Its refreshing to me personally I don't get offended but he's worse with his fi polr than me to others

    My LSE friend has the meanest humor of anyone I know but he's the only delta I know this way. He also never says it to the person unless he's very comfortable with them . While the ILE and I have no issue roasting strangers and actually used to team up and bully kids together when we were younger lol
    Bullies disgust me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Something View Post
    Bullies disgust me.
    We were younger than 12 man. we were just fuckin with ppl we thought were jerks we didn't beat em up or anything lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingslayer View Post
    We were younger than 12 man. we were just fuckin with ppl we thought were jerks we didn't beat em up or anything lol.
    Ah, I used to do the same thing, and i'm not Fi polr. The only thing I hate from when i was that age is that some Beta NF girl made up shit about me, saying that I hurt her or whatever and ruined my reputation with a lie, the little whore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Something View Post
    Ah, I used to do the same thing, and i'm not Fi polr. The only thing I hate from when i was that age is that some Beta NF girl made up shit about me, saying that I hurt her or whatever and ruined my reputation with a lie, the little whore.
    Im sure most EP kids did at some point. Its fi polr with us because we would use personally offensive humor and find it hilarious while the person receiving it gets butthurt. But I don't mind personal humor about me either as long as its just that, humor. Not an actual attack so looking back now I'm like damn we were some bullies as kids lol. But by no means were we trying to cause harm we thought we just being funny and trying to entertain each other.

    Those are the worst. I know an eie male who also has to try and destroy someone's reputation too.. its weird to me because I could fucking care less about my reputation personally I just get mad out of principle that this person is that much of a weak slimey weasel. Either way I always tell them "yess please tell the people stupid enough to listen to you that I'm a massive asshole..it works as a filter to keep idiots like you out of my life."

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingslayer View Post
    Im sure most EP kids did at some point. Its fi polr with us because we would use personally offensive humor and find it hilarious while the person receiving it gets butthurt. But I don't mind personal humor about me either as long as its just that, humor. Not an actual attack so looking back now I'm like damn we were some bullies as kids lol. But by no means were we trying to cause harm we thought we just being funny and trying to entertain each other.

    Those are the worst. I know an eie male who also has to try and destroy someone's reputation too.. its weird to me because I could fucking care less about my reputation personally I just get mad out of principle that this person is that much of a weak slimey weasel. Either way I always tell them "yess please tell the people stupid enough to listen to you that I'm a massive asshole..it works as a filter to keep idiots like you out of my life."
    "EP kids" LMAO! Yeah. I have used lots of personally offensive humor and i'm not Fi polr. I don't know if it's about that, and I still do shit like that, mostly because I know what i'm doing but I can come in too harsh. Might be the Se role. I don't know how people expect IEE men to be. We're often edgy and offensive. I think we're the least Delta of the Deltas. Not all Deltas like me either. Anyway... I'm a living contradiction, i'm Ti polr.

    Yeah, you are lucky you don't care about it! I no longer care either, but I used to, for some reason. Like it or not, I have a strong Fe and am aware of the whole emotional atmosphere. But breaking it is so tempting at times.

    People are stupid.

    You remind me of one of my SLE friends btw. You say very similar things. I used to type him SLI coz we got along but i've started to think he's SLE. He doesn't look aggressive though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Something View Post
    "EP kids" LMAO! Yeah. I have used lots of personally offensive humor and i'm not Fi polr. I don't know if it's about that, and I still do shit like that, mostly because I know what i'm doing but I can come in too harsh. Might be the Se role. I don't know how people expect IEE men to be. We're often edgy and offensive. I think we're the least Delta of the Deltas. Not all Deltas like me either. Anyway... I'm a living contradiction, i'm Ti polr.

    Yeah, you are lucky you don't care about it! I no longer care either, but I used to, for some reason. Like it or not, I have a strong Fe and am aware of the whole emotional atmosphere. But breaking it is so tempting at times.

    People are stupid.

    You remind me of one of my SLE friends btw. You say very similar things. I used to type him SLI coz we got along but i've started to think he's SLE. He doesn't look aggressive though.
    Ah i see. I'm terrible at typing deltas usually because I don't have a clear image of how each delta type is actually.

    I try to go by a Tony Soprano quote "who gives a shit what people say if they don't even have the balls to say it to your face" reputation is silly to me. I let my actions and influence speak for me l. If you can take some blatant scumbags word at face value about me hardly having known me then I got nothing to discuss with someone like that anyway lol.


    That's funny about the sle friend because I was torn between sli and sle for a while my own self . I actually still really relate to some sli descriptions but I like attention too much to be fe polr . I have considered ese as well..

    But I don't think I'm aggressive either. But people tell me otherwise. Yet only if I'm cranky or something. If I'm confronting someone or working out or playing a sport or video game I can get super aggressive and forceful because I'm competitive but I don't consider it a resting state. I can be pushy even when in good moods but playfully really I show respect and act friendly. I like to laugh and joke with people . It's a big reason I considered ESE. I'm confident that I'm fe valuing and 4d se.. I sometimes doubt SLE cuz the socionics community paints an image of them usually that isn't accurate.

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    Fi POLR is predominantly about being uncomfortable with the static nature of your relationships (e.g., "does this person like me or are they just being nice"). Anyone who is remotely intelligent can learn social norms, and there are plenty of Fi POLR people who are more attuned to social cues than F ego types. The underlying thread is never being 100% certain about how people relate to you. That is why they dual with Fe-creatives who 1) provide constant external emotional responses that the Fi POLR can read, and 2) are more attune to understanding who really likes the Fi POLR and who doesn't.

    Fi POLR: "I can never tell if X likes me or not."

    Fe Creative: "X likes you just fine s/he's just cranky."


    ETA: Also, ignore the bullshit that Fi POLR = no empathy.
    Last edited by mightylizard; 04-28-2020 at 07:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mightylizard View Post
    Fi POLR is predominantly about being uncomfortable with the static nature of your relationships (e.g., "does this person like me or are they just being nice"). Anyone who is remotely intelligent can learn social norms, and there are plenty of Fi POLR people who are more attuned to social cues than F ego types. The underlying thread is never being 100% certain about how people relate to you. That is why they dual with Fe-creatives who 1) provide constant external emotional responses that the Fi POLR can read, and 2) are more attune to understanding who really likes the Fi POLR and who doesn't.

    Fi POLR: "I can never tell if X likes me or not."

    Fe Creative: "X likes you just fine s/he's just cranky."
    Mind me asking - How does Fe creative do this better than Fe base?

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    Mind me asking - How does Fe creative do this better than Fe base?
    Fe bases can do it well but long term they are less adaptive (i.e., creative) with Fe. Fe is the core of the EIE/ESE, whereas it is only a tool the SEI/IEI use. SLE/ILE and EIE/ESE get along very well and are commonly partners/best friends. That said, the ESE/EIE may make too many Fe demands on the ILE/SLE: "just chill out." SEIs and IEIs are better at turning off Fe. When the ILE/SLE make a social faux pas they are less likely to hear about it from the SEI/IEI compared to an ESE/EIE, who may laugh it off in the end, but are more likely to make an issue out of something the SLE/ILE does/says, even if the issue itself is over in ten seconds. Fe creative won't do this unless it is serious. "Subconciously" the SLE/ILE trusts the SEI/IEI and knows that if they are making a big deal out of a social error the SLE/ILE made then it most likely is indeed a serious error and they will then reflect on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mightylizard View Post
    Fe bases can do it well but long term they are less adaptive (i.e., creative) with Fe. Fe is the core of the EIE/ESE, whereas it is only a tool the SEI/IEI use. SLE/ILE and EIE/ESE get along very well and are commonly partners/best friends. That said, the ESE/EIE may make too many Fe demands on the ILE/SLE: "just chill out." SEIs and IEIs are better at turning off Fe. When the ILE/SLE make a social faux pas they are less likely to hear about it from the SEI/IEI compared to an ESE/EIE, who may laugh it off in the end, but are more likely to make an issue out of something the SLE/ILE does/says, even if the issue itself is over in ten seconds. Fe creative won't do this unless it is serious. "Subconciously" the SLE/ILE trusts the SEI/IEI and knows that if they are making a big deal out of a social error the SLE/ILE made then it most likely is indeed a serious error and they will then reflect on that.
    Thanks, makes some sense. [Please note I type as Fe suggestive not Fe mobilising for the rest of my post.] I've had the experience with Fe egos where they usually are fine but then sometimes make a big deal out of something and then yeah I would listen to that totally. Even if at the same time it all just sounds like drama the way they put it lol, but I think the "dramatic expressing" makes it lighter for me somehow so as not to feel too reprimanded in some too hostile way. But yeah those warnings stick in my mind forever afterwards. And I find only Fe bases (at least I think they are Fe base) are able to do it in that way that I remember it forever.

    Anyway I am thinking more on your previous post.

    It all sounds a lot like trust issues too and some extra paranoia. Where you said "does this person like me or are they just being nice", yeah that sounds like seriously trust issues which I personally did develop too after a while in life. After seeing enough people who would be like, being nice while having well-hidden self-serving goals or being unreliable in major ways.

    More trust issues: "The underlying thread is never being 100% certain about how people relate to you." Yeah, well I've experienced this in an intensified way after the above experiences, it isn't fun. How I solve it is, I often just don't give a shit. I was never 100% certain on it but I never really cared before it got intensified, then I was pissed enough after a while and went back to ignoring that kind of bullshit. I also did get better at perceiving nuances in how much someone actually cares or how much they don't care, like how much of it is social niceties, or in-the-moment enjoyment of "emotional connection", and how much of it is actually deeper based in a more reliable care/like where it is possible to trust more and let down the guard some.

    But yeah overall, where you say "are more attuned to understanding who really likes the Fi POLR and who doesn't", that I found to be a very useful skill to try and develop yeah. Tho not like Fi PoLR Iguess because it was always a no-brainer to me to see it in less close relationships/social situations/other situations if someone's just trying to do bullshit flattery or they genuinely are involved in the interaction, with genuine enough expressions. But in closer relationships, that's where I lack ability to see the nuances enough, OK I can see the person likes me but not beyond a point or yes...? That part gets complicated.


    So your example where

    "Fi POLR: "I can never tell if X likes me or not."

    Fe Creative: "X likes you just fine s/he's just cranky.""

    It sounds pretty cool, really, like, it just sounds like too easy. lol

    Except I never bring it up like the Fi PoLR does. Even with the "trust issues" thing, I'm not as interested as to go as far to actually discuss such concerns with others. It just isn't enough on my mind. Because I don't really put stock into some temporary bad mood having any meaning for the entire relations with the person unless it's some really hostile thing. That tbh is when such advice would be useful to me. But especially when it comes to relationships that I wish to consider close. And that's where I say this would be really useful and make some things a lot easier Lol


    I still have one question. You also mentioned Fe creatives "provide constant external emotional responses that the Fi POLR can read", but considering Fe suggestive descriptions, those also talk about how Fe suggestive really strongly needs the clarity on how others are predisposed to them. Like even more than Fe mobilising. Idk, I deal with it fine when I don't have that clarity. Ofcourse in a closer relationship it gets important to be clear on it & I have been seen as actively requesting clarification on that.

    But yeah, the question is, why would you emphasise this specifically for Fe mobilising/Fi PoLR? This thread has other posts too where this is really emphasised and I don't see how it's specific to Fe mobilising. Any idea what differs here for Fe suggestive, specifically?

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    Thanks, makes some sense. [Please note I type as Fe suggestive not Fe mobilising for the rest of my post.] I've had the experience with Fe egos where they usually are fine but then sometimes make a big deal out of something and then yeah I would listen to that totally. Even if at the same time it all just sounds like drama the way they put it lol, but I think the "dramatic expressing" makes it lighter for me somehow so as not to feel too reprimanded in some too hostile way. But yeah those warnings stick in my mind forever afterwards. And I find only Fe bases (at least I think they are Fe base) are able to do it in that way that I remember it forever.

    Anyway I am thinking more on your previous post.

    It all sounds a lot like trust issues too and some extra paranoia. Where you said "does this person like me or are they just being nice", yeah that sounds like seriously trust issues which I personally did develop too after a while in life. After seeing enough people who would be like, being nice while having well-hidden self-serving goals or being unreliable in major ways.

    More trust issues: "The underlying thread is never being 100% certain about how people relate to you." Yeah, well I've experienced this in an intensified way after the above experiences, it isn't fun. How I solve it is, I often just don't give a shit. I was never 100% certain on it but I never really cared before it got intensified, then I was pissed enough after a while and went back to ignoring that kind of bullshit. I also did get better at perceiving nuances in how much someone actually cares or how much they don't care, like how much of it is social niceties, or in-the-moment enjoyment of "emotional connection", and how much of it is actually deeper based in a more reliable care/like where it is possible to trust more and let down the guard some.

    But yeah overall, where you say "are more attuned to understanding who really likes the Fi POLR and who doesn't", that I found to be a very useful skill to try and develop yeah. Tho not like Fi PoLR Iguess because it was always a no-brainer to me to see it in less close relationships/social situations/other situations if someone's just trying to do bullshit flattery or they genuinely are involved in the interaction, with genuine enough expressions. But in closer relationships, that's where I lack ability to see the nuances enough, OK I can see the person likes me but not beyond a point or yes...? That part gets complicated.


    So your example where

    "Fi POLR: "I can never tell if X likes me or not."

    Fe Creative: "X likes you just fine s/he's just cranky.""

    It sounds pretty cool, really, like, it just sounds like too easy. lol

    Except I never bring it up like the Fi PoLR does. Even with the "trust issues" thing, I'm not as interested as to go as far to actually discuss such concerns with others. It just isn't enough on my mind. Because I don't really put stock into some temporary bad mood having any meaning for the entire relations with the person unless it's some really hostile thing. That tbh is when such advice would be useful to me. But especially when it comes to relationships that I wish to consider close. And that's where I say this would be really useful and make some things a lot easier Lol


    I still have one question. You also mentioned Fe creatives "provide constant external emotional responses that the Fi POLR can read", but considering Fe suggestive descriptions, those also talk about how Fe suggestive really strongly needs the clarity on how others are predisposed to them. Like even more than Fe mobilising. Idk, I deal with it fine when I don't have that clarity. Ofcourse in a closer relationship it gets important to be clear on it & I have been seen as actively requesting clarification on that.

    But yeah, the question is, why would you emphasise this specifically for Fe mobilising/Fi PoLR? This thread has other posts too where this is really emphasised and I don't see how it's specific to Fe mobilising. Any idea what differs here for Fe suggestive, specifically?
    Okay, yes, good question! I think Fe suggestive needs more of the external emotional responses from Fe Base. Also, I would assume Fe suggestive wants more "absolute" Fe statements that they convert into Ti "rules" so to speak. At the end of the day I think Ti egos as a whole want external emotional responses. The key difference is that Fe creatives are more contextual with their Fe and can just adapt more to what they perceive the S/ILE needs at any given moment in regards to Fe.

    I think it is easiest to flip it, actually:

    Ti Base: "Nitpick nitpick nitpick"
    Ti Creative: "Nitpick nitpick, does this really matter? No." Of course sometimes the answer is "yes", in which case the Ti creative will continue to nitpick. "Subconsciously" the Fe Creatives TRUST that when the Ti creative continues to nitpick that it is important, because they wouldn't nitpick unless it was.

    It is irrational vs rational. Hopefully that helps?

    Note: Also, Ti creatives are more likely to "concede" points so to speak to other people, (e.g., "well maybe you're right") than Ti Bases, who are more set on "the truth." This is useful because IEIs and SEIs are notoriously stubborn. You can't "change" their mind, only give them a suggestion or argument and let them decide for themselves (Ti HA; Te POLR).

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    Quote Originally Posted by mightylizard View Post
    Okay, yes, good question! I think Fe suggestive needs more of the external emotional responses from Fe Base.
    Ok, yeah, that's what it says in the theory, it's just weird to see it so emphasised on here too in a thread about Fi PoLR/Fe mobilising

    So my understanding if I got this right is that Fe suggestive needs to just to see the emotional info of everything. And Fe mobilising doesn't need the emotional info of everything, just needs the Fe clarifications to satisfy the Fi PoLR yeah?

    edit: to use less socionics lingo, this means, Fe suggestive due to their high independence needs to see the emotional info of everything (both positive and negative) to be able to even be involved in the relations on the emotional level (beyond just the physical level) and participate in the emotional connection, while Fe mobilising needs specifically positive emotional input (e.g. flattery, admiration, affection, emotional validation) to get their self-esteem increased and get their Fi PoLR worries about being likeable and lovable decreased - correct?


    Also, I would assume Fe suggestive wants more "absolute" Fe statements that they convert into Ti "rules" so to speak. At the end of the day I think Ti egos as a whole want external emotional responses. The key difference is that Fe creatives are more contextual with their Fe and can just adapt more to what they perceive the S/ILE needs at any given moment in regards to Fe.
    Tbh I like what you said here about Fe creative too. Regardless of what we call it, I don't want someone who's like totally selfish emotionally, lol.


    I think it is easiest to flip it, actually:

    Ti Base: "Nitpick nitpick nitpick"
    Ti Creative: "Nitpick nitpick, does this really matter? No." Of course sometimes the answer is "yes", in which case the Ti creative will continue to nitpick. "Subconsciously" the Fe Creatives TRUST that when the Ti creative continues to nitpick that it is important, because they wouldn't nitpick unless it was.

    It is irrational vs rational. Hopefully that helps?

    Note: Also, Ti creatives are more likely to "concede" points so to speak to other people, (e.g., "well maybe you're right") than Ti Bases, who are more set on "the truth." This is useful because IEIs and SEIs are notoriously stubborn. You can't "change" their mind, only give them a suggestion or argument and let them decide for themselves (Ti HA; Te POLR).
    Yeah I understand what you mean about the theory. For me personally I'm like, I'm almost always open to discussing but I'm very argumentative while I do that. So I don't actually look open* lol, it's all for fun though

    *: And def not open like some Ne ego or whatever

    I also like the take that there is only Fe when it actually is important (flipping your example again). Because then I can do other things too while there's no "Fe'ing". So again I like parts of Fe creative too
    Last edited by grumpyvic81; 05-05-2020 at 10:12 AM.

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    Stereotype
    pushy
    obnoxious
    invaded your boundaries
    lives to bully you


    Reality
    forgot you existed
    made no effort to maintain contact
    treats (almost) everyone the same [for good and bad]
    disregards relationships and nonsense / insecurities / values in pursuit of the truth
    stifled by your up-tightness
    moved on
    replaced you

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    Also can swing the other way
    Self-destructively sticks their neck out for people they don't know
    Unreasonably generous with no strings attached
    Willing to give you the shirt off their back if you manage to get close
    That friend that might actually "disappear" a body for you at 3am

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    Quote Originally Posted by inaLim View Post
    Stereotype
    pushy
    obnoxious
    invaded your boundaries

    lives to bully you


    Reality
    forgot you existed
    made no effort to maintain contact

    treats (almost) everyone the same [for good and bad]
    disregards relationships and nonsense / insecurities / values in pursuit of the truth

    stifled by your up-tightness
    moved on
    replaced you
    Quote Originally Posted by inaLim View Post
    Self-destructively sticks their neck out for people they don't know
    Unreasonably generous with no strings attached
    Willing to give you the shirt off their back if you manage to get close
    That friend that might actually "disappear" a body for you at 3am
    The underlined describe or described me in the past a LOT, lol

    Make it generic Ti / Se stuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by inaLim View Post
    forgot you existed
    (made no effort to maintain contact)
    replaced you
    These are actually the things I personally would have serious issues with, in the sense of that they would make me keep my distance. I'm not really sure how duality is supposed to cover for this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynn View Post
    These are actually the things I personally would have serious issues with, in the sense of that they would make me keep my distance. I'm not really sure how duality is supposed to cover for this.
    If someone makes the Fi-POLR feel genuinely comfortable and emotionally safe then they will not do these things: they will have a great amount of respect and admiration for that person, even if they do not necessarily express the depth of that feeling out loud. Besides, I think the first two of those need to be asterisked with *regardless of this the Ti-POLR will be incredibly loyal and appreciative of your interest in them as a person and will do anything they can to help you.

    Oh, and the duality works because the Te-POLR goes, "oh, this is nice, this person takes the time to try and understand my opinion and is patient when explaining things to me and makes sure that I understand."

    There are inevitable sacrifices in any relationship, even if it is with a dual. There are things about Te-POLR that annoy SLEs and ILEs too, but they are the type [according to the theory] that understands how to deal with it appropriately and in a way that protects their dual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynn View Post
    These are actually the things I personally would have serious issues with, in the sense of that they would make me keep my distance. I'm not really sure how duality is supposed to cover for this.
    I think attachment and cutting it off like a diseased limb if it gets bad is a serious thing and point of contention in any case, was the main point of what @inaLim is trying to get at. We have a penchant for doing that when we feel relations get bad because they are difficult for us to manage and we often wait and let it get to that point. I don’t think inaLim was trying to imply we wouldn’t take it, or serious relationships, seriously. What it means and I think other Fi polrs can relate to this though: our investment is our own and our own business, and when other people try to inflate the importance of their role in a relationship or the relationship itself to us in an unaccounted for way, that is a very serious turn-off. It immediately registers as toxic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mightylizard View Post
    ETA: Also, ignore the bullshit that Fi POLR = no empathy.
    I do think that other Fi polr people have made comments or done things that were harsh or unempathetic before though, compared to other types IME, beyond just trolling. But they usually aren’t that bad because they are like unfounded “glitches” in calculation. When I point out these instances to other Fi polr people, either they will apologize, or they’ll go in denial for a while then wordlessly try to make up for it later. I think this impression has to do with how Fe HA types seem generally somewhat socially aware enough to usually understand how people might be feeling, but not always or enough, so that when we make mistakes here, they stand out more to ourselves (and often to others who know us well), and this can be extra painful. I do think that Fe HA types tend to care about empathy though (at least when we deem it justified) so maybe this stereotype is undeserved, unless of course the Fi polr person is toxic or insane, like any other type though. But then again, many people never improve themselves without such criticisms (such as via stereotypes), so I think we should just let it be.

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    I also think there are a very small minority of Fi polr people out there that make up a portion of toxic, manipulative sociopaths, who are also very clever about it in some tropey “Don Juan” way. But then again there are plenty of other types that can also be sociopathic (any type really) in their own different ways. Look at Hit1er (beta NF), school shooter SLIs and LSI, narcissistic and manipulative LSEs, businesslord LIEs who are immoral, even Mother Teresa who seemed SEI or delta NF who was revealed to be scandalous, and alpha SFs who are famous for being manipulatively “caring”, the list goes on.

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    It’s simply easier for people’s minds to latch onto things and ideas when they’re clearly definable tropes. Such is how the concept of “Fi polr empathy-lacking sociopaths” was born.

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    Same goes for the PoLRs of all the other types, of course.

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    This thread keeps hitting a lot of stuff for me in various ways for some reason. It still seems like to me, a lot of the Fi PoLR stuff is "trust issues", lol.

    Anyway yeah. @mightylizard that's exactly how my Ti works, lol. Everything you said in your post there. Scarily accurate

    (Btw I addressed post #536 to you if you don't mind looking at it)


    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I think attachment and cutting it off like a diseased limb if it gets bad is a serious thing and point of contention in any case, was the main point of what @inaLim is trying to get at. We have a penchant for doing that when we feel relations get bad because they are difficult for us to manage and we often wait and let it get to that point. I don’t think inaLim was trying to imply we wouldn’t take it, or serious relationships, seriously. What it means and I think other Fi polrs can relate to this though: our investment is our own and our own business, and when other people try to inflate the importance of their role in a relationship or the relationship itself to us in an unaccounted for way, that is a very serious turn-off. It immediately registers as toxic.
    And this. Totally the same. For the underlined, I cut off quite some people due to that bullshit. That there is perfectly worded. Exactly how I see it myself. Anyone who tries to do that shit can go fuck themselves. And if you want to know, mostly these people seem IEIs, LOL.

    (So yeah if this is a problem for SLE Fi PoLR then yeah how does duality work?)

    For the italicised part, yah, that too is true. I'm trying to fix the part about waiting and letting it get to that point. I want to be more in control of it than that. "Cutting it off like a diseased limb" is the perfect expression too for it

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynn View Post
    These are actually the things I personally would have serious issues with, in the sense of that they would make me keep my distance. I'm not really sure how duality is supposed to cover for this.
    This about "forgot you existed
    made no effort to maintain contact
    moved on
    replaced you"
    ,

    I'm not typing as Fi PoLR (I mean some people have wanted to put this typing on me but just take my input as generic Beta ST stuff, ok?), but since some of this stuff fits me I'll give you my input here. The first two here are just because of not being very attached yet. It just takes a lot of time to get attached (true for both Beta STs). I don't think SLEs do that when they really are attached and committed in a relationship. So put that stuff in this context.

    For the next two, I find it fundamentally immoral and distasteful to just "move on and replace the person". I mean I once tried to look at things like that and that's when it just felt like it's taking the easy way out and like it's cheating or something. Like you just use the person while that's comfy and useful to you and once you don't get anything out of it anymore you just move on and find a new victim. It really felt like too easy lol, like an easy smooth life without any "suffering", but somehow easy in the wrong way & it felt too disgusting too. Too fundamentally against how I am. I don't think anyone thinks like that unless they are an actual psychopath. So no I wouldn't relate it to Fi PoLR either

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynn View Post
    These are actually the things I personally would have serious issues with, in the sense of that they would make me keep my distance.
    That was a general response to these "my Fi PoLR friend" stories.

    The core of Fi PoLR is lack of focus and energy for making judgements about FELT INNER VALUE (Jung) and INTERPERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS. (Socionics)


    It's not "I have this impulse to invade your boundaries, throw napalm, and keep you as a friend."

    It's "How can you be so sensitive about ABC when what's actually important is XYZ? Someone else come deal with this."




    forgot you existed - The world does not revolve around
    bullying you. Get out of here with your persecution complex.



    http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm

    5. Recapitulation of Introverted Rational Types

    ... In so far as he is a convinced participator in the general style, he undermines his own foundations, since the present style, with its almost exclusive acknowledgment of the visible and the tangible, is opposed to his principle. Because of its invisibility, he is obliged to depreciate the subjective factor, and to force himself to join in the extraverted overvaluation of the object. He himself sets the subjective factor at too low a value, and his feelings of inferiority are his chastisement for this sin. ...

    The undervaluation of his own principle makes the introvert egotistical, and forces upon him the psychology of the oppressed. The more egotistical he becomes, the stronger his impression grows that these others, who are apparently able, without qualms, to conform with the present style, are the oppressors against whom he must guard and [p. 498] protect himself. He does not usually perceive that he commits his capital mistake in not depending upon the subjective factor with that same loyalty and devotion with which the extravert follows the object By the undervaluation of his own principle, his penchant towards egoism becomes unavoidable, which, of course, richly deserves the prejudice of the extravert. Were he only to remain true to his own principle, the judment of 'egoist' would be radically false; for the justification of his attitude would be established by its general efficacy, and all misunderstandings dissipated.







    Hell, that person may not even be Fi PoLR.

    The superior function is always the expression of the conscious personality, its aim, its will, and its achievement, whilst the inferior functions belong to the things that happen to one. Not that they merely beget blunders, e.g. lapsus linguae or lapsus calami, but they may also breed half or three-quarter resolves, since the inferior functions also possess a slight degree of consciousness. The extraverted feeling type is a classical example of this, for he enjoys an excellent feeling rapport with his entourage, yet occasionally opinions of an incomparable tactlessness [p. 427] will just happen to him. These opinions have their source in his inferior and subconscious thinking, which is only partly subject to control and is insufficiently related to the object ; to a large extent, therefore, it can operate without consideration or responsibility.




    made no effort to maintain contact - I'm not investing time and energy keeping a relationship afloat with someone I can't even be myself around.

    moved on - If you are that sensitive that I have to tip-toe around you 24/7, yes I'd cut my losses and move on.

    replaced you - It is obvious we are not the same. We don't fit. Go find someone else who does. I'll do the same.











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    Quote Originally Posted by lynn View Post
    I'm not really sure how duality is supposed to cover for this.



    Fe sensitizes SLE to the interpersonal field of emotions and value by being emotionally expressive
    Ni reorients SLE to inner meaning




    http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm

    B. The Extraverted Type


    (II) THE ATTITUDE OF THE UNCONSCIOUS


    The attitude of the unconscious (of an extrovert) as an effective com plement to the conscious extraverted attitude has a definitely introverting character. It focusses libido upon the subjective factor, i.e. all those needs and claims which are stifled or repressed by a too extraverted conscious [p. 423] attitude. It may be readily gathered from what has been said in the previous section that a purely objec tive orientation does violence to a multitude of subjective emotions, intentions, needs, and desires, since it robs them of the energy which is their natural right. Man is not a machine that one can reconstruct, as occasion demands, upon other lines and for quite other ends, in the hope that it will then proceed to function, in a totally different way, just as normally as before. Man bears his age-long history with him in his very structure is written the history of mankind.

    The historical factor represents a vital need, to which a wise economy must respond. Somehow the past must become vocal, and participate in the present. Complete assimilation to the object, therefore, encounters the protest of the suppressed minority, elements belonging to the past and existing from the beginning. From this quite general consideration it may be understood why it is that the unconscious claims of the extraverted type have an essentially primitive, infantile, and egoistical character. When Freud says that the unconscious is "only able to wish", this observation contains a large measure of truth for the unconscious of the extraverted type. Adjustment and assimilation to objective data prevent inadequate subjective impulses from reaching consciousness. These tendencies (thoughts, wishes, affects, needs, feelings, etc.) take on a regressive character corresponding with the degree of their repression, ie. the less they are recognized, the more infantile and archaic they become. The conscious attitude robs them of their relatively disposable energycharge, only leaving them the energy of which it cannot deprive them. This remainder, which still possesses a potency not to be under-estimated, can be described only as primeval instinct.


    Restated in a slightly less convoluted way


    - The conscious attitude (Se in this case) focuses attention and energy towards the tangible situation of the outer world, and away from the felt demands of the the inner world
    - The demands of the Self to know & feel its own true emotions, intentions, needs, desires ( my addition: identity, meaningfulness, purpose, wonder, relationships etc ) cannot go unmet indefinitely
    - Little energy is left for the subconscious, but the remainder is a potent primal instinct,
    - How far the unconscious has regressed depends on the degree of development of the individual



    Duality

    - SLE has a subconscious instinct to experience introverted intuition and extroverted feeling "Somehow the past must become vocal, and participate in the present."
    - The dual (IEI) is the embodiment of this primal instinct
    - IEI shares their intuition and emotions which "focusses the (SLE's) libido upon the subjective factor" and "returns to them the energy which is their natural right"
    - SLE becomes "re-sensitized" through IEI
    - Orientation to IEI's intuition (which is infused with feeling) instead of bare reality allows the SLE's "inadequate subjective impulses to reach consciousness"

    - SLE is able to experience (feel) what has been absent, and becomes more aware of how to find / know / create meaning and meaningful relationships (SLE can do this on their own without IEI but it typically would happen the long, hard way)

    Last edited by inaLim; 05-10-2020 at 02:50 PM. Reason: eh. I don't know whats up with this formatting

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    Some people seem to think it’s ok for themselves to be assholes (because of course they only have the best intentions) but start raging when I start to become an asshole back, probably because I’m better at it or funnier or something. And they don’t realize how lame it seems. I can literally hear some LIE protesting to this in my mind right now, moralizing in vain. Even some ILEs can get pretty butthurt sometimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Some people seem to think it’s ok for themselves to be assholes (because of course they only have the best intentions) but start raging when I start to become an asshole back, probably because I’m better at it or funnier or something. And they don’t realize how lame it seems. I can literally hear some LIE protesting to this in my mind right now, moralizing in vain. Even some ILEs can get pretty butthurt sometimes.
    Yes, very typical. People will play up being an asshole and then when you quip back they play victim. ENFps and ESFjs are bad for this as well in my experience, particularly the males.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mightylizard View Post
    Fi POLR is predominantly about being uncomfortable with the static nature of your relationships (e.g., "does this person like me or are they just being nice"). Anyone who is remotely intelligent can learn social norms, and there are plenty of Fi POLR people who are more attuned to social cues than F ego types. The underlying thread is never being 100% certain about how people relate to you. That is why they dual with Fe-creatives who 1) provide constant external emotional responses that the Fi POLR can read, and 2) are more attune to understanding who really likes the Fi POLR and who doesn't.

    Fi POLR: "I can never tell if X likes me or not."

    Fe Creative: "X likes you just fine s/he's just cranky."


    ETA: Also, ignore the bullshit that Fi POLR = no empathy.
    Great post, I bolded my favorite points. One of my closest friends is an ILE and a Social 9 on the enneagram. She's empathic and VERY aware of the people around her.

    We were once comparing notes about empathy and taking on other peoples' feelings which is where her Fi PoLR to my Fi demonstrative became clear. I said something along the lines of, "ah, I hope you don't keep feeling bad about that one situation with ___." She said, "I can feel someone's emotions with them in the moment, but once they're gone and not in my presence those feelings don't live on in me. I detach quickly and won't continue feeling them."

    That blew my mind because I can take on people's pain/moods for a long time even if they're not around me, which is something I often wish I could get rid of. I was a little jealous when she told me that, like, "teach me your ways." She just doesn't internalize it at all.

    I think this also makes me feel oddly protected by Fi PoLR people. Their ability to not be torn up by these feelings is refreshing and makes me feel safe, like, "oh okay. You're right. I don't have to keep feeling bad, do I?" It's kind of a relief.
    Last edited by Emily; 06-01-2020 at 04:56 AM.

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    The polr needs protection by the demonstrative of the dual. Because the polr is a source for worries and insecurity it needs to be matched by a strong function.

    I think the demonstrative is mostly instinctual and works unconsciously.

    If I have understood this correctly...
    Last edited by Tallmo; 06-01-2020 at 10:39 PM.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


    My Pinterest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    Great post, I bolded my favorite points. One of my closest friends is an ILE and a Social 9 on the enneagram. She's empathic and VERY aware of the people around her.

    We were once comparing notes about empathy and taking on other peoples' feelings which is where her Fi PoLR to my Fi demonstrative became clear. I said something along the lines of, "ah, I hope you don't keep feeling bad about that one situation with ___." She said, "I can feel someone's emotions with them in the moment, but once they're gone and not in my presence those feelings don't live on in me. I detach quickly and won't continue feeling them."

    That blew my mind because I can take on people's pain/moods for a long time even if they're not around me, which is something I often wish I could get rid of. I was a little jealous when she told me that, like, "teach me your ways." She just doesn't internalize it at all.

    I think this also makes me feel oddly protected by Fi PoLR people. Their ability to not be torn up by these feelings is refreshing and makes me feel safe, like, "oh okay. You're right. I don't have to keep feeling bad, do I?" It's kind of a relief.
    Just think about how your feeling bad has no effect on them and thus creates a net loss for everyone, unless you talk to them, actually help them in some way, or throw positive vibe unicorn dust at them I guess.

    Btw I think we do internalize it, but we just don’t realize it or admit it, because it’s so low in our consciousness. It sits as tiny crumbs in the back of our consciousness where it can quietly impact our mood and wellbeing. Of course with much less conscious significance compared to IEIs like you.
    Last edited by sbbds; 06-02-2020 at 06:41 AM.

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    I hate MBTI stereotypes and I want to pour gasoline on them and watch them die in flames as they look up to me with teary eyes crazed flailing and pleading, I want to pee into them and watch them shut for the final time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I hate MBTI stereotypes and I want to pour gasoline on them and watch them die in flames as they look up to me with teary eyes crazed flailing and pleading, I want to pee into them and watch them shut for the final time.
    Pee into me.

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    Introverted PoLR: channel goes in but not out. Simply as that. Fi as I see is about sympathetic response in where it operates in this case it is feeling. Unfeeling personal predisposition. Hence it also steps over communal values. Sympathetic position assumes similarity without objectivity. In the end it is about reaching for objective feeling. Fi is like: I want to get rich -> others want it too or I want to get married-> others want it too etc. When this dominates you can pretty much kiss ass because the nuances. Whereas I just don't hold those believes and decide it logically case by case.
    In a way I do not deal with wants and it reflects back.

    Maybe the best example comes when people try to please me and hit a wall everytime.
    Last edited by COVID 007; 06-02-2020 at 09:29 AM.
    Measuring you right now

    Winning is for losers

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Just think about how your feeling bad has no effect on them and thus creates a net loss for everyone, unless you talk to them, actually help them in some way, or throw positive vibe unicorn dust at them I guess.
    I wish it were this easy because it's good advice. Yes. It would probably help to have an SLE in my daily in-person life, telling me this regularly. We could have a symbolic unicorn-dust blowing ceremony whenever the need arises.

    Btw I think we do internalize it, but we just don’t realize it or admit it, because it’s so low in our consciousness. It sits as tiny crumbs in the back of our consciousness where it can quietly impact our mood and wellbeing. Of course with much less conscious significance compared to IEIs like you.
    You're right. I think my friend internalizes it into her body a lot (gets sick after a time, has physical symptoms, desires Si to come care for her) and experiences burn-out. A lot of her non-reactions and thinking she's fine when she's not probably comes down to her being a 9. Other Fi PoLR types are certainly more volatile than she is, but she's SUPER zen (on the outside).

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