Page 17 of 19 FirstFirst ... 713141516171819 LastLast
Results 641 to 680 of 721

Thread: Fi PoLR - Misunderstood

  1. #641
    Itsme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    TIM
    LIE
    Posts
    290
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    Also it clearly states that VA cognition follows the trend of darwinism or natural-like evolution of thought, not that it is Darwin and his thinking.
    Regarding your prior intellectual capacities i just assumed that you may had mixed up the sources

    For fuck's sake, dude.
    (Transl:'I am a healthy person with no need to put other people down for constructive participation, because i do not have narcissistic traits at all')

  2. #642
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Inferno 13th floor
    TIM
    IEE-Ne cp684 sx/sp
    Posts
    709
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I notice that there’s a big difference between my ILE bf and I in terms of Fe HA. To me part of beta Fe HA is about freedom of expression that disregards people’s traditional comfort and sensitivities. It usually doesn’t really represent my actual views, it’s just for the sake of expressing something that makes you feel strongly / for creativity. I feel like it should be obvious to people that it’s just for facetiousness / done in jest but deltas* (*I should extend this to everyone but betas particularly IEIs and SLEs who I like) always want to police it anyway because they are shit. The entire point is to be offensive but they’re not my actual views lol, like it’s so fucking ridiculous how’s that actually possible, low IQ twats.
    I think that what you're describing is not really Fe-HA but anti Te-Fi behaviour. I definitely understand if deltas chastize you for using Te views not to express your understanding of things, but to get a rise out of people. XLEs with weak Fe often do that, because they are too afraid to engage in Fe directly. Note that neither EIE, ESE or SEE would act like you do, so it's not good Fe.

    I don't think deltas would have as much problems with you if you actually used Fe(maybe Fe Polr would, idk): "For HEAVEN'S SAKE could you stop these FUcKinG machines!? MAN I'M SOOO ANGRY I'M GONNA HIT SOMEONE". I don't think any quadra has false positivity/status quo as a value, I think it's great if you can express your frustration in a way other people can relate, but no, you have to engage in some Te/Fe passive-aggressiveness, expressing shit that's completely unrelated to your problem and ruining the mood for other people, or at least making them wonder if you're crazy.

  3. #643
    "Xiong Mao"
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    A mystery
    TIM
    LII - Ne
    Posts
    424
    Mentioned
    49 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    Also it clearly states that VA cognition follows the trend of darwinism or natural-like evolution of thought, not that it is Darwin and his thinking. For fuck's sake, dude.

    This is Jung:


    Carl Jung, Psychological Types (1921). Chapter 10th: General Description of The Types. The Introverted Type. The Introverted Thinking Type; page depends on edition.

    (mind Jung here doesn't really differentiate between ego and valuing like Aushra would: the lack of Te in Nietzsche comes from his PoLR, it is not even his ignoring - like in case of Kant - function)
    How much validity do you think there is to the cognition types? Do you think people fit these neat descriptions?

    As for Nietzsche, my official typing of him is EIE. I had no idea that Jung himself said that about him. I've seen the gamma NT typing for him a lot, and it's clear he's got Beta values.

  4. #644
    f.k.a Oprah sbbds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    TIM
    EII typed by Gulenko
    Posts
    4,671
    Mentioned
    339 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    I think that what you're describing is not really Fe-HA but anti Te-Fi behaviour. I definitely understand if deltas chastize you for using Te views not to express your understanding of things, but to get a rise out of people. XLEs with weak Fe often do that, because they are too afraid to engage in Fe directly. Note that neither EIE, ESE or SEE would act like you do, so it's not good Fe.

    I don't think deltas would have as much problems with you if you actually used Fe(maybe Fe Polr would, idk): "For HEAVEN'S SAKE could you stop these FUcKinG machines!? MAN I'M SOOO ANGRY I'M GONNA HIT SOMEONE". I don't think any quadra has false positivity/status quo as a value, I think it's great if you can express your frustration in a way other people can relate, but no, you have to engage in some Te/Fe passive-aggressiveness, expressing shit that's completely unrelated to your problem and ruining the mood for other people, or at least making them wonder if you're crazy.
    In my view it’s “proper” or accepted Te/Fe that is wrong or is what’s causing problems in the first place, so I’m mocking the entire avenue of its discourse I guess. Having limited expression is part of the problem.

  5. #645
    "Xiong Mao"
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    A mystery
    TIM
    LII - Ne
    Posts
    424
    Mentioned
    49 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    Neatly, no. Some elements of theory are better (basic Jung is surprisingly good), some are worse (some Reinins, aspects of +/- which Gulenko changed a few times, etc.). But overall, I can see the patterns and use for the system(s).
    I don't have much of an opinion on cognitive styles. It always seemed like a lot of speculation to me. When it comes to Socionics in general, I'm not sure I trust the kind of empiricism being used here, if you know what I mean.

    I also think I have - and probably most have - several biases and expectations with different types/quadras. I possibly have a bias against Fe-egos; I've thought some 'bad cases' of people in my life were IEIs, but tbh upon reading on IEIs they were either really 'unhealthy' (I know 'don't diagnose', but I knew those people IRL, I've actually reported some of these incidents to my uni and they took care of it) or simply still 'unhealthy', but probably EIEs (the 'digging at you' attempts seem more 'unhealthy' EIE by descs, IEI would likely just sit down and cry, sorry). IEIs are mostly fine, even if they are my conflictors somehow. Heck, even some SEIs on this forum are fine, while I had very bad experiences with my SEI mother (it improved, you have to use more Si with her and if you use Te, be less directive, maybe add Ti). Tl;dr sorry IEIs. It's not even you I think I have 'problems' with. I have problems with theatrics, whining and extensive emotional influence it seems.
    I can sort of understand. Tho I associate theatrics more with EIEs. Have you read Anna Karenina by Tolstoy? I think it was Gulenko that typed Anna as EIE ( and she's narratively contrasted with SLI Levin). I don't think I have any biases towards any types. From personal experience, i get along best with Alpha NTs, Gamma NTs, Alpha SFs, Beta NFs, LSEs, and everyone else in that order. I also don't have much experience with certain types like SLI and IEE. I consistently have negative experiences with Fi leads. ESI moreso than EII. My mom is ESI and she's a great mom but she can really harsh sometimes. She does ask me for help and advice and takes me seriously, which I'm always grateful for.

    Imho Nietzsche would go for me IEI (Ni) > EIE > ILI, but I admit I never really dig that much into him as just fragments of his thoughts seemed, like, 'okay dude, but where are the facts, sources, objectivity, not your opinion'. I also had philosophy classes so I know a bit about his background, general views etc. I probably should read him just out of expanding my knowledge. Perhaps it would be wise to compare him to Rousseau (widely typed IEI), another philosopher I seem to hold a grudge against, and maybe I'm wrong, as some interpretations of him make him understandable apparently (so again, I should read him).
    Neitzsche strikes me as a rational type, just in the way that he writes. I didn't go to school for philosophy but I've been reading and trying to educate myself. I've read a lot of his works. But, imo Neitzsche does deliver historical facts. The nature of his works is somewhat predictory, I'd have to say. Maybe the construction of narratives has something to do with Fe? I employ methods like that in my own writing. I guess the point is, how would you provide evidence for your own personal philosophical approach. For example, if i say I'm a hegelian thinker how would I provide facts and evidence to back that up? If you want to get into Neitzsche, i recommend starting with Genealogy or Beyond Good and Evil, and to hold off on Zarathustra cuz I have a feeling you really won't like that one lol. We can discuss more of this stuff on Discord. It's kind of why I have Discord in the first place.

  6. #646
    Haikus SGF's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    ┌П┐(ಠ_ಠ)
    TIM
    LSI-H™
    Posts
    2,165
    Mentioned
    181 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    In my eyes, nothing really supports that shotgun has really high Fe/Fi abilities. But I will try to more... Quantify it, as it's more of an intuitive and 'overall' view.

    I don't really see high knowledge or use here, but I see attempts (HA). Shot is aware of most of his emotions (?), but can't really adapt to the interlocutor like a XEI (mostly) would: he often goes on rants, tells things that affect relationships with others negatively (not on purpose, he just doesn't know), was in trouble with multiple other members of this forum (also not on purpose). It's hard for him to get his point across in a 'pleasant' way, if even possible - he actually disregards it, but on the other hand, /likes/ when someone gives him a point in a pleasant way (see his dislike for gamma NTs, who often just don't). I have not seen any attempts from him that were successful in that Fe/Fi matter so far. He has problems with understanding emotions/feelings of people, who often are more closeted and don't show him Fe-feedback (Te-egos), hence he 'dislikes them' as they seem 'cold and know-it-alls'. XEIs usually have a little bit more nuanced understanding, specifically towards their kindred (XLI).

    Gamma NTs or specifically XLIs don't get into that atmosphere, it's not there and shotgun sad/mad/frustrated. I think he has a trouble admitting what he likes there, which may be related to him not being sure (type six) or him refusing to acknowledge that, as he sees it going against his views/what he would like to be/independence/whatever. It's a matter of pride, to admit that an intellectual may indeed like those things... Nah, he is truthful, we are just deadpans.

    Read those on IEI (from various authors) and try to see whether you see a bit problematic shotgun here.

    Again, this sounds more like someone shotgun /needs/, and he has himself acknowledged his problems enough to see he isn't that kind of a person.

    The 'he is lost when asked about himself' (Ni ignoring) easily explains shotgun's problem with self-typing, yet him having little problems with typing others.
    I freely admit I'm not good at creating positive emotional atmospheres or engaging other people in an emotive way. I prefer to fix their problems at the root lvl, rather be constructive. People are still very easy to read and I do something similar to IEIs in this regard for sure. It may simply be a consequence of me being a vigilant type.

    Signature Strengths*

    "Bravery [valor]: Not shrinking from threat, challenge, difficulty, or pain; speaking up for what is right even if there is opposition; acting on convictions even if unpopular; includes physical bravery but is not limited to it"

    "Social intelligence [emotional intelligence, personal intelligence]: being aware of the motives and feelings of other people and oneself; knowing what to do to fit into different social situations; knowing what makes other people tick"
    I don't really enjoy conflict tho, prefer to avoid it if I can, but its sometimes necessary. imo I'm doing a fine job considering the drastic worldview differences between me and most ppl on this site.

    I also agree I have a certain kind of revulsion towards anyone who reduces reality to mere utilitarian Te. I see Te as a mere tool, to be used for something more transcendent, a means to the latter's end... tho my view of Fe is similar.
    Last edited by SGF; 08-23-2020 at 03:35 PM.

  7. #647
    Haikus SGF's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    ┌П┐(ಠ_ಠ)
    TIM
    LSI-H™
    Posts
    2,165
    Mentioned
    181 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    You have this amazing tendency to add more and more and more Ti layers (theorieeees) to something that is humanely needed. Instead of cutting it simply to one most probable. Ne.
    This is mainly so because I look at ideas, systems, people and things form all angles in order to fully comprehend them, to avoid unknowns and surprises. When something is new I tend to do the flip-flop, aka I spot a flaw and I zoom out suddenly distrusting the thing, then get back to rotating and analyzing to figure out if its a flaw or if its meant to be like that and how its connected to the rest / what does it mean and how do I relate to it. In this process I poke, prod, say and do things to simply test and get feedback / data.

    There is always something new, a previously unknown combination / side and more to add & discover. Its like assembling a puzzle.

    :> I'm like the master of the "Yeah.. but" and the "what IF".. ..other ppl may see this part of me as "frustrating" .

  8. #648
    Seed my wickedness The Reality Denialist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Spontaneous Human Combustion
    TIM
    EIE-C-Ni ™
    Posts
    8,235
    Mentioned
    335 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    good to have some refreshing beta intellectualism.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

    Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org

  9. #649

    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    TIM
    ILE-Ne SX/SP 5w6
    Posts
    132
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pississippi View Post
    wait so why dont u think ur IEI? ime T types are bad at reading people unless they have a lot of experience.
    Oversimplification. I (Ti) can "read" other peoples thoughts very accurately. Or, at least, I think I can. Probably relates to being N as well. SLEs are notoriously good body-language readers. Perhaps the best of any type. Different types read different things about people.

  10. #650
    pississippi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    TIM
    depends
    Posts
    29
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mightylizard View Post
    Oversimplification. I (Ti) can "read" other peoples thoughts very accurately. Or, at least, I think I can. Probably relates to being N as well. SLEs are notoriously good body-language readers. Perhaps the best of any type. Different types read different things about people.
    Yea, SLEs and ILEs can notice body language and attribute outward behavior to an outward emotion like happiness or sadness (Fe.) But types with weak Fi may have difficulty analyzing that information in terms of how it determines their relations with someone else- they might disregard how sudden reservedness might mean offense, or they may have difficulty figuring out if an angry person is really mad or if it's just a joke.

    Oftentimes they'll process that info afterwards, realizing that they might've said something wrong, which can lead to insecurity. IMO Fi PolR in particular wouldn't like to hear corrections on their mistakes, unlike types with Fi in the Super-ID.
    Personally I feel like I can read people in the sense that I have a general understanding of their personality, which is N as you said. However, I'm bad at understanding how much they like or hate me, Fi.

  11. #651
    Seed my wickedness The Reality Denialist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Spontaneous Human Combustion
    TIM
    EIE-C-Ni ™
    Posts
    8,235
    Mentioned
    335 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    The controversy of being right is like stepping on someone else's toes. That is considered as Fi mistake when you can't suck it up and say ignorance is a bliss...
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

    Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org

  12. #652

    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    1,335
    Mentioned
    64 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Here's the difference between Fi lead and Fi PoLR.


    This pedo tries to rationalize and tries to say what he did isn't wrong. Most likely seems ILE.





    This pedo knows what he did is wrong and did it anyway, Most likely seems EII.


    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 08-24-2020 at 07:03 PM.

  13. #653
    "Xiong Mao"
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    A mystery
    TIM
    LII - Ne
    Posts
    424
    Mentioned
    49 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Here's the difference between Fi lead and Fi PoLR.


    This pedo tries to rationalize and tries to say what he did isn't wrong. Most likely seems ILE.






    This pedo knows what he did is wrong and did it anyway, Most likely seems EII.


    No.

  14. #654

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    2,116
    Mentioned
    108 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    My Fi PolR in a nutshell:

    I understand people very well imo. I can read them face to face and even in text interaction fairly well and know exactly where we stand in terms of relations even from some of the very first interactions. Generally its fairly evident to me how and what buttons I need to push in other people to get certain responses out of them. It just depends entirely on what I want in the given situation or what my mood and orientation towards these ppl is. Imo its less about being unintentionally rude, or glitching the interaction by some deficiency on my end such as low empathy or sympathy, autism and more about intentionally pushing their buttons & making them react the way I want them to.

    If I want I can behave in ways which make people like me. I can be very charming, goofy or whatever I think you'd enjoy. Is it genuine? It Depends. Do I have empathy and sympathy for people? I do. My response however depends on a lot of other factors. I won't just simply respond with thoughtless superficial kindness. I tend to feel guilt & shame a lot, which regulates my response very often.

    Imo a lot of how I act on the forums is misconstrued imo as it comes from firmly held, well researched and gradually through experience adopted ideas and values.. which conflict and contradict those held by the majority. I seem to just by default have a kind of firebrand personality or a tendency towards incendiary interaction, which I find.. fun... however a lot of these ideals if you wish to call them that are firmly entrenched and non negotiable.

    As a consequence I tend to be perceived as combative, rude / insensitive, trolly and such by the majority.. but its simply my way of mocking the current zeitgeist and the people who are the products of it. When I express sincere values, opinions or how I relate it seems to either be taken as insensitive Fi PolR or not seriously ("not sure if joking") kind of way, when in fact I'm dead serious :>.
    what definition of rude are you working with?

  15. #655
    Haikus Dr PissBender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    TIM
    IEE-Ne 7w8 Sx/Sp
    Posts
    1,196
    Mentioned
    36 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Panda View Post
    No.
    Explain why, fucking smartass bitch.

  16. #656
    End's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    TIM
    ILI-Ni sp/sx
    Posts
    1,857
    Mentioned
    293 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    @shotgunfingers you’re basically like an extroverted ILI IMO. I do not think you’re the best representation of Fi polr like how you think.

    I think a better point of evidence of your Fi polr would be when you freak out after being morally reprimanded, for e.g. what happened when I called you racist and sociopathic lol.
    I'd like to hear your chain of reasoning in earnest @sbbds. An "extroverted" ILI is essentially a thought exercise. That would be more accurately labeled as a LIE. As would an Introverted LIE be more accurately labeled as an ILI. Mirrors are a thing after all.

  17. #657
    f.k.a Oprah sbbds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    TIM
    EII typed by Gulenko
    Posts
    4,671
    Mentioned
    339 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    I'd like to hear your chain of reasoning in earnest @sbbds. An "extroverted" ILI is essentially a thought exercise. That would be more accurately labeled as a LIE. As would an Introverted LIE be more accurately labeled as an ILI. Mirrors are a thing after all.
    Socionics labels them as ILI and ILE. Introtim and extrotim versions of the same information domains.

    That is more accurate IMO than calling mirrors different verted versions of each other, because they have different temperaments, along with other differences like process/result.

    Of course extinguishment pairs have other differences too and mirror types share the same values. It’s sort of a matter of opinion.

  18. #658

    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    TIM
    ILE-Ne SX/SP 5w6
    Posts
    132
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Panda View Post
    No.
    I agree: no. Fi doesn't have a grip-hold on morality, even if it likes to claim it does. The videos were more a lack of being honest with oneself vs being honest with oneself, and any type at all could struggle or excel at that.

  19. #659

    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    TIM
    ILE-Ne SX/SP 5w6
    Posts
    132
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pississippi View Post
    Yea, SLEs and ILEs can notice body language and attribute outward behavior to an outward emotion like happiness or sadness (Fe.) But types with weak Fi may have difficulty analyzing that information in terms of how it determines their relations with someone else- they might disregard how sudden reservedness might mean offense, or they may have difficulty figuring out if an angry person is really mad or if it's just a joke.

    Oftentimes they'll process that info afterwards, realizing that they might've said something wrong, which can lead to insecurity. IMO Fi PolR in particular wouldn't like to hear corrections on their mistakes, unlike types with Fi in the Super-ID.
    Personally I feel like I can read people in the sense that I have a general understanding of their personality, which is N as you said. However, I'm bad at understanding how much they like or hate me, Fi.
    Sure, but you said T types are bad at reading people, not assessing relationships. They are two different things, even if there probably is some sort of relationship. I guess it depends on how you define reading people, but I define reading people as picking up on their motivations and general trends of their behaviour (which is N > F IMO). Actually, to be specific, I think having a good read on people more heavily relates to being SO/SX (and having SX in your stack in general) more than any one socionics type in particular.

    An EII probably has a much better assessment on their relationships than I do, but I imagine I am better than many EIIs in understanding/reading individuals and predicting how they will react, because my whole life so much of my energy has been dedicated to observing people. There are people I feel I understand very well just via observation (i.e., I know their motivations, what makes them tick, what they want to hear, what they value, etc.), but I am still always uncomfortable gauging my personal relationship with them in a static sense.

  20. #660
    💩 Nobody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    TIM
    POOP™
    Posts
    439
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mightylizard View Post
    I agree: no. Fi doesn't have a grip-hold on morality, even if it likes to claim it does. The videos were more a lack of being honest with oneself vs being honest with oneself, and any type at all could struggle or excel at that.
    Why not? All functions act as a dual pair, so there's no thinking without feeling or vice versa, but if you isolate T from F on a conceptual level, F is personalized and T is not. And ethics and morality are a very personalized thing.

    Socionics even recognizes this and labels Fe as "ethics of emotion" and Fi as "ethics of relations", so they are both ethics, while T is not. And it's not hard to see the first typing as a T type and the second as an F.

    Unless you guys are just finding fault with the fact the first guy was typed Ti and the second Fi, then honestly, why does it bother you so much? IMO I see how the first guy might be Fe valuing. He seemed like he just needed some kind of external validation to know if what he was doing was right or not and hadn't gotten that yet, not Chris Hansen coming out to prejudge him. He was assaulted with Chris Hansen Fi imo. And let's remember that Chris Hansen caused a guy to take his life with this stuff, so I'm not too keen on that guy's ethics, and it's the reason his show got cancelled. So Fi can definitely suck. And some of these guys I just feel bad for because they are being baited by a 19 year old girl posing as 13, so they aren't even catching real pedophiles, even if they say she looks young and I don't even know if that holds up in a court of law, since she was technically 19? But the second guy clearly had internalized reservations about what he was doing, which is more in line with Fi.

  21. #661
    pississippi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    TIM
    depends
    Posts
    29
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mightylizard View Post
    Sure, but you said T types are bad at reading people, not assessing relationships. They are two different things, even if there probably is some sort of relationship. I guess it depends on how you define reading people, but I define reading people as picking up on their motivations and general trends of their behaviour (which is N > F IMO). Actually, to be specific, I think having a good read on people more heavily relates to being SO/SX (and having SX in your stack in general) more than any one socionics type in particular.

    An EII probably has a much better assessment on their relationships than I do, but I imagine I am better than many EIIs in understanding/reading individuals and predicting how they will react, because my whole life so much of my energy has been dedicated to observing people. There are people I feel I understand very well just via observation (i.e., I know their motivations, what makes them tick, what they want to hear, what they value, etc.), but I am still always uncomfortable gauging my personal relationship with them in a static sense.
    i took "reading ppl" in the OP to mean "assessing relationships." sorry if that wasn't clear

  22. #662

    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    TIM
    ILE-Ne SX/SP 5w6
    Posts
    132
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    Why not? All functions act as a dual pair, so there's no thinking without feeling or vice versa, but if you isolate T from F on a conceptual level, F is personalized and T is not. And ethics and morality are a very personalized thing.

    Socionics even recognizes this and labels Fe as "ethics of emotion" and Fi as "ethics of relations", so they are both ethics, while T is not. And it's not hard to see the first typing as a T type and the second as an F.

    Unless you guys are just finding fault with the fact the first guy was typed Ti and the second Fi, then honestly, why does it bother you so much? IMO I see how the first guy might be Fe valuing. He seemed like he just needed some kind of external validation to know if what he was doing was right or not and hadn't gotten that yet, not Chris Hansen coming out to prejudge him. He was assaulted with Chris Hansen Fi imo. And let's remember that Chris Hansen caused a guy to take his life with this stuff, so I'm not too keen on that guy's ethics, and it's the reason his show got cancelled. So Fi can definitely suck. And some of these guys I just feel bad for because they are being baited by a 19 year old girl posing as 13, so they aren't even catching real pedophiles, even if they say she looks young and I don't even know if that holds up in a court of law, since she was technically 19? But the second guy clearly had internalized reservations about what he was doing, which is more in line with Fi.
    Some of the most common types to debate ethics are INTj and INFp, both of who have Fe-Ti. I would say there is probably a correlation between "acting morally" and Fi as well as "making ethical mistakes" and Fi-POLR; however, Ti is, in my opinion, likely to have ethical principles equally fleshed out on each case-by-case basis. Your assumption is that ethics need to be "personalized." I am not sure what you mean by this, but I am assuming it is either, 1) related to people in general, or 2) something the individual feels themselves. Either way, neither of that is inherently Fi, or even F. I would argue that those have more to do with being SO (for 1.) and SP or SX, depending on the specifics, for 2. Ti types strongly feel "fairness" and "balance," (i.e., "you treated person X different than person Y, why?") which is the basis for morality.

    In my experience Fi-types approach morality in this way (this is a generalization): X made me feel "bad"; therefore, "X" is bad.

    Ti-types approach morality in this way (generalization again): Person X in context Y was treated like Z. Person Y in context Y was treated worse. Why? That is inconsistent. Ti types "feel" this injustice and inconsistency in thought/action very intensely.

  23. #663
    I don't play, I slay. Lolita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Near Whole Foods
    TIM
    SEE-N™ WPEL™ 863
    Posts
    1,146
    Mentioned
    85 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The problem with Fi in the ego block is that it’s missing context and takes waaay too long to understand how little their flawed idealism matters in the real world. Fi is moralistic, meddlesome, tiresome, arbitrarily judgmental, boring. They spend too much time either going on witch hunts against abstract “negative” behavior (ESI) or nagging everyone to death with their pointless moral tales (EII). Then there’s creative Fi which is arguably even more problematic because they’re rigidly unrigid and rebel against structure. Fi lead is actually consistently judgmental, even though their criteria is arbitrary. But Fi creative is so beyond stubborn and impossible to deal with that no amount of reason could get to them if they don’t relate to the information.

    I don’t get why SLE gets a bad rap for lashing out against Fi. The fact that Fi is so unjust and devoid of logic, take everything personally and can’t understand anything that doesn’t relate back to them, that’s suffocating. What’s funny is they’re really unaware of how fucked up they are that everything has to evolve around their identity, especially how “special,” and “unique” they are.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  24. #664
    Tzuyu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    TIM
    SLI
    Posts
    472
    Mentioned
    51 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I like EII because no matter how moody or irritated I got they always forgave me and listened. The only person IRL I feel 99% safe around. Although I remember this one time a trusted EII friend gave a punishing glare because I didn't finish her mom's food. And she also flipped her shit when I asked to copy answers, just came out of no where and kind of shook me deep down. Almost cried because of how surprised I was, even tho it usually takes me a lot more to go to that point of emotionality. Couldn't look at her the same way afterwards. Could have just said no.
    But for ILE it's like they don't even register I messed up. Or focus on your flaws. And in the rare case they do they don't judge you, the person. Or they forget about it 99% of the time if it's minor. Which is an extremely liberating feeling TBH. But also not as great for personal development. I witnessed an ILE's best friend steal his girlfriend and he was fucking furious for about a week and then went back to best buddies with that guy. Yikes.




  25. #665
    I don't play, I slay. Lolita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Near Whole Foods
    TIM
    SEE-N™ WPEL™ 863
    Posts
    1,146
    Mentioned
    85 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    Both Ji functions are 'idealistic' in a way. See about every LSI trying to bring us down to system of choice, and not tolerating any disobedience to it. (I would also say that Ni is more idealistic than Ne, so all Ji/Ni pals are the most 'idealistic' out there: LII and EII the most perhaps, IEI and ILI slightly lower because of their creative functions)

    I don't give a fuck about structure. I don't give a damn about hierarchy. Yeah, maybe it's there, maybe you are all going to be triggered, so what?

    The 'moral tales' are maybe pointless to you. They are not pointless to me, sorry.



    Because not everyone is Fi-PoLR and many people do value Fi. In my eyes, Ti (and Fe) can be very cruel, especially when you look at 'blind following of ideology' thing happening. But I guess if you somehow call your ideology 'a just system and a logical one', then that's okay.

    Being 'special and unique' is more related to enneagram 4 than to Fi, and it's commonly seen in NFs in general (but /not/ only NFs). Personally, I often see this in 'healthy' beta NFs. More than once I saw an EIE (or IEI) being a special-treatment-needing mayflower. Alpha SFs would /love/ to believe they are such (in a more Ne-way).

    (ITT: beta teenagers being baby-crying hurr durr at Fi blockages; and good, because I'm pretty sure without that you would go on a killing spree one day, and that's not what I would like to see)
    LSI wants first and foremost order. Order is disturbed when people rebel against structure and claims the system don’t work because one or a few individuals slipped through the cracks and boo hoo that’s so “unfair.” Cry me a fucking river. Exceptions to the rule does not invalidate the rule. You can make exceptions to people in your personal life, but making exceptions as it pertains to the grand scheme of the system leads to malfunction. Sure, LSI tries to be the corrections officer with the little data that fits in their tiny instantaneous perception until they're told to fuck off but so what? If you’re going up against the system and its enforcers, you have to grow some balls, even if it means they’ll castrate you if you’re caught. If you’re not willing to do that, then stop whining.

    Again, the problem with moral tales is it’s outdated and pointless. Fi brings judgment against anyone whom they deem as morally reprehensible, but often excuse themselves and others they’re close to. That’s called hypocrisy. Favoritism and nepotism stems from Fi, which in itself is unfair. And yet, Ti system wants to erect set laws and rules that applies to everyone, but that’s called “unfair” by Fi because they “don’t care about rules.” Well, rules don’t care about your feelings or your personal turmoil. Rules are there for everyone to adhere to so we could consistently function without having to deal with petty, personal meltdowns. Point is, we should get along but not have to like each other. What’s so terrible about that position? Because it doesn’t make you feel special?


    And yup, you’re right that more people value Fi than not, but that’s why the majority of people aren’t in a position of power and aren’t fit to govern. They can barely govern themselves, and give into whims wherever it takes them and lead disorderly and messy internal (and often times spills out to external) lives. They don’t have the capacity to govern the external world on a grand scale.

  26. #666
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    16,228
    Mentioned
    1553 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Psych View Post
    And to just add - I have innocently been myself and been aggressed upon or attacked (in their view probably counter-attack) several times by an SEE myself. Of course, for most of this, I did not know that it was undeserved. One of them happened just this morning in my online class in company of several classmates. The intention was clearly being imposing or aggressive enough to shut me down. Not in a bullying way per se, at least not what most people would consider bullying but it was unfair regardless. She was putting words in my mouth and then talking down to me. I don't believe the other classmates necessarily saw who I actually was or what I actually said, maybe some did but certainly not all. This is the danger with supervision, especially when this goes far.

    I have had more than an unexpected number of friends or familiar people take this person's (general any SEE I have dealt with; not related to online class) side who was unfairly treating me or outright mistreating me and as you can imagine, that really starts messing with your sense of reality.

    Socionics has helped me understand a lot of this but I still feel generally vulnerable to this "mental rape" regardless; it's like I cannot protect myself. But that might also be me just personally instead of Se PoLRs in general, idk.

    You know you want to fight back but you can't, and you become frantic, and they continue to harm you anyway. I would not wish this on my own supervisee and I certainly regret if I have ever accidentally done that to one.
    This is exactly why, even though I really like my Supervisees, the IEI's, I stopped trying to date them for anything other than friendship. I've had them tell me that my Te facts aren't hurting them, but that's because I really suppress Te when I'm around them. I suppress Te and emphasis Se and for a short time, they aren't burned.

  27. #667
    Hot Scalding Gayser's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The evolved form of Warm Soapy Water
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    14,902
    Mentioned
    661 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    The problem with Fi in the ego block is that it’s missing context and takes waaay too long to understand how little their flawed idealism matters in the real world. Fi is moralistic, meddlesome, tiresome, arbitrarily judgmental, boring. They spend too much time either going on witch hunts against abstract “negative” behavior (ESI) or nagging everyone to death with their pointless moral tales (EII). Then there’s creative Fi which is arguably even more problematic because they’re rigidly unrigid and rebel against structure. Fi lead is actually consistently judgmental, even though their criteria is arbitrary. But Fi creative is so beyond stubborn and impossible to deal with that no amount of reason could get to them if they don’t relate to the information.


    LMAO Holy Fuck I agreed with this so much my soul just had an anal orgasm. I think tho EII might do the witch-hunting and ESI might be telling the pointless moral tales but other than that I think it was very on-point.

  28. #668
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    16,228
    Mentioned
    1553 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Psych View Post
    That's a kind approach but most supervisors don't think of the consequences of their actions. The worst is when your worst fears are confirmed. Plus Gamma SFs are notorious for stubbornly persisting on surface level impressions and then exacting some sort of Fi vendetta, even small ones, doesn't have to be a big revenge or anything. Gut-level impressions combined with moralistic streak. You can imagine this would be distressing for Se PoLRs who are innocent but do not inherently understand Se norms. And for me personally, no matter how intelligent they might be, I see the gaping hole where Ne should be and all I see is - someone is seeing maybe 1% of what I said and then making me look bad. My E4 self really hates this, because I am not being seen for who I am. Having an extrovert as supervisor can also be potentially threatening because they can spread rumors, make you look bad to others (not necessarily the norm for SEEs, but it's a fear of mine). Maybe they were genuinely mistaken but with Gamma it's a mix of genuine malevolence and misunderstanding I feel like. So yeah, despite being my supervisor I don't usually "admire" SEE; they come across incredibly ordinary and nothing interesting (there have been some exceptions though). This is partly why I resent their "supervision."

    This is incredibly helpful. I had no idea that Gamma SF's affected EII's like that.

  29. #669

    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    1,335
    Mentioned
    64 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I just want to know does Fi PoLR think there's such thing as good and bad, like a black and white good and bad? Or is everything always gray? Or just "positive" or "negative"?
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 10-01-2020 at 05:35 AM.

  30. #670

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I just want to know does Fi PoLR think there's such thing as good and bad, like a black and white good and bad? Or is everything always gray? Or just "positive" or "negative"?
    My wild guess is that Fi PoLR does things and assigns an incentive (moral or not) to them on an on-demand basis after the act for the sake of those who appear to want/need it?
    Last edited by Kalinoche buenanoche; 10-01-2020 at 08:35 AM.

  31. #671
    Seed my wickedness The Reality Denialist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Spontaneous Human Combustion
    TIM
    EIE-C-Ni ™
    Posts
    8,235
    Mentioned
    335 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I just want to know does Fi PoLR think there's such thing as good and bad, like a black and white good and bad? Or is everything always gray? Or just "positive" or "negative"?
    It is all relative. All you need to do is to study habits around the world and history to understand this. This is the objective truth.

    All what you can do is to raise above taboos and think it objectively. Like for instance if a culture supports raping your infants and I would decline (being born it that culture) it would be a very bad Fi mistake from my part. Go figure.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

    Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org

  32. #672
    I don't play, I slay. Lolita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Near Whole Foods
    TIM
    SEE-N™ WPEL™ 863
    Posts
    1,146
    Mentioned
    85 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post

    LMAO Holy Fuck I agreed with this so much my soul just had an anal orgasm. I think tho EII might do the witch-hunting and ESI might be telling the pointless moral tales but other than that I think it was very on-point.
    I assign ESI as leading actual witch hunts because they’re enforcing Fi to manifest in the material world because of creative Se. They don’t have patience to spins tales like Lord of the Rings, because that’s an Ne thing. EII likes to tell long-winded stories with massive but with elusive and vague didactic tones. It’s their way of painting a fuzzy image of morality without having to directly define it. At least with ESI, you know exactly where they stand. If they hate your ass and hunt you down like how they hunt down SLEs, they’ll define their mission as eradicating “evil” from the world. It doesn’t take much to hold a mirror up to ESI to expose their hypocrisy. Their E stands for effort, not ethics. I find EII more revolting because they meander so much. To weasel anything directly out of them is like trying to separate white from rice- not gonna happen.

  33. #673
    The Morning Star EUDAEMONIUM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    gone
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    3,130
    Mentioned
    157 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    There's is a lot of people in this thread with Fi PoLR trying to explain Fi in the most biased convoluted way possible, ironically their little baby sized Fi to make judgements on Fi base users.

    By removing personal bias and returning to theory Fi is defined as this:

    Introverted ethics is an introverted, rational, and static information element. It is also called Fi, R, relational ethics, or white ethics. Fi is generally associated with the ability to gain an implicit sense of the subjective 'distance' between two people, and make judgments based off of said thing.
    Fi PoLR is a general blindness to this subjective distance. What is a subjective distance? Those with high dementional Fi will have a classification for the distance they have with others, some could be acquaintances, friends, good friends, new friends, family, girlfriend/boyfriend, work friend, enemies, "frienimies".

    With higher dimentionality you can then predict or guess what others value, where you stand with them relationship-wise, what will offend them in conversation and how to get on their good side.

    Those with weak but valued Fi will seek out their dual who can point out these distinctions for them.

    Those with weak and unvalued Fi (PoLR) will likely not care and not pay attention to this level of nuance to a personal relationship.

    This is all it is, you can be a moral person who does not value Fi.

  34. #674
    Seed my wickedness The Reality Denialist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Spontaneous Human Combustion
    TIM
    EIE-C-Ni ™
    Posts
    8,235
    Mentioned
    335 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ImOutThere View Post
    Those with weak and unvalued Fi (PoLR) will likely not care and not pay attention to this level of nuance to a personal relationship.

    This is all it is, you can be a moral person who does not value Fi.
    Well, kind of but also when you leave the deal of what people value you kind of have your own kind of ethics. Objectively looking at it - it does not still tell about the quality of it. Like I said it can be Fi PoLR thing to decline of practicing the rotten ways society conducts itself.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

    Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org

  35. #675
    The Morning Star EUDAEMONIUM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    gone
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    3,130
    Mentioned
    157 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Fi is the ethics of relations but not ethics itself. There are many ethical theories that don't have to do with personal sentiment.

  36. #676
    Seed my wickedness The Reality Denialist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Spontaneous Human Combustion
    TIM
    EIE-C-Ni ™
    Posts
    8,235
    Mentioned
    335 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ImOutThere View Post
    Fi is the ethics of relations but not ethics itself. There are many ethical theories that don't have to do with personal sentiment.
    Relation is that you can navigate with ethical qualities between people. Essentially both parties lick each others' narcissistic qualities (=Fi) and relation is born, I think or how I see it.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

    Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org

  37. #677

    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    1,335
    Mentioned
    64 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CoViD Spurdo 007 View Post
    It is all relative. All you need to do is to study habits around the world and history to understand this. This is the objective truth.

    All what you can do is to raise above taboos and think it objectively. Like for instance if a culture supports raping your infants and I would decline (being born it that culture) it would be a very bad Fi mistake from my part. Go figure.

    Do you think this is right or wrong?


  38. #678
    Seed my wickedness The Reality Denialist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Spontaneous Human Combustion
    TIM
    EIE-C-Ni ™
    Posts
    8,235
    Mentioned
    335 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Do you think this is right or wrong?

    Well, simple logic says without Fi that if object A takes privileges over other objects that is destructive and it should enable other objects taking similar privileges implies simply that it will not be long standing position. But if you as Fi base were born into a culture that has a norm of bunching others you would see it as your responsibility to whack others senseless whereas Ti would question it and it would be up to that individual to decide wheter to follow Fi norm or not.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

    Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org

  39. #679
    I don't play, I slay. Lolita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Near Whole Foods
    TIM
    SEE-N™ WPEL™ 863
    Posts
    1,146
    Mentioned
    85 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    The thing is: why /this/ order and not /that/ order? The choosing of order/Ti is subjective. Despite different domain (T vs F) both Ji function are subjective. They can be agreed upon by large chunks of society, but that doesn't change their subjective nature. I guess for beta it's relevant to choose order/ideology and fight for its implementation, but /not everyone is beta/ and if you look at data, beta strategies /are not needed for things to work/.


    And I personally don't want any order of LSIs instilled on me. In fact, I don't want any beta 'order' instilled on me.
    Technically, NOBODY (and I don’t mean the dude who has the Cuties avatar) wants LSI’s brand of order. The keyword is want. The reality is it’s necessary. LSI are best at installing law and order out of chaos and SLE is the enforcer of those orders. Ti exemplify order; codified, explicit, and concrete reference. Ti is civilized law whereas Fi rules often lead to disorder and is arbitrary. An eye for an eye is Fi thing, which is barbaric and full of endless reprisals. Whereas, Ti law wants to hold everyone accountable for the same rule. Fi rule is like the soccer referee who got beheaded in Brazil. Someone don’t like you, they kill you and get away with it. If there’s a mass of people who don’t like you, they can go witch hunt you. Socrates forced to drink hemlock for no other reason than his ideas where too dangerous and he had to be silenced. Ti holds everyone accountable for their actions. I’ve stressed the arbitrary nature of Fi in every response I’ve made in this thread and pretty much every time I talk about Fi. I’m not sure why you stress like/dislike as if it’s a valid point because it’s not. Humans are fickle because of Fi and Ti needs to keep them in check.
    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    Nepotism is seen in all quadras. Ya really think Fi-PoLR (or non-valued) can't be nepotistic, make biased as heck decisions and so on? Both Fi and Ti doms try to stay as close to their inner Ji as possible. Both at worst can make unimaginable excuses to keep it 'all good' in their eyes. They usually are aware they are lying to themselves tho, and suffer greatly. 'Liking' can be both Fi/Te and Ti/Fe based, although Fi/Te types usually see Ti/Fe 'likes' as whimsical, unsure, dictated by a moment (Fi vs Fe).
    Moreover, beta itself is well-known for bonding into groups, going for ideology and enforcing it. And how those groups aren't a bit fine with cronyism or nepotism? You think that those chosen to 'rule' aren't favorites of their ruler, often here only because they are useful idiots that keep to that hierarchy or are nice in Fe (and not something relevant to position)? Family ties only make it easier (and for classical definition of nepotism they are crucial), but blurry the essence of the thing: keeping someone just in place to preserve the hierarchy/structure/ties, without democratic considerations; plain old favoritism. And again, how your 'system to follow' (created with low Ni) is somehow universally right and you can enforce it? What gives you the right, besides force?
    I wasn’t talking about Quadras. I specifically talked about the nature of Fi and favoritism and nepotism stems from Fi. Since you brought this up to lessen my scathing words against Fi, I’ll say, sure, nepotism exists in all Quadras. However, Gammas and Deltas are the most prone to wanting and operating based upon favoritism. Just because you want to be above the law don’t give you justification that you can overthrow it. All Fi wants is based out of personal preferences, no discipline, no code, no law, no order. It just wants to run rampant with restrictions. Fortunately there’s still such a thing as consequences. Of course Fi/Te sees Fe/Ti as “liking on whims” because they’re in denial to themselves that the very nature of “liking” is fleeting because it’s an emotion, not fact, not law. Emotions aren’t based in reality, and there’s no reason for the emotion to exist, it just simply there. Again, I’m not downplaying the importance of personal emotions but it’s not reality-based and shouldn’t ever be used to make any judgements with a serious impact. No amount of rationalization will ever make Fi ethics right.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    (And hypocrisy - if big - usually informs that someone is just a poser, not really valuing the function they are talking about. Or a narcissist. Or both. One of those often called out on 'hypocrisy' is Mother Theresa, and at least Jack types her IEI: http://worldsocionics.blogspot.com/2...ntegrator.html who quite likely tried to play her benefactor, ESI; and don't tell me about religious hypocrisy of churches, who are usually Ti/Fe based, focusing on Ti)
    Ok. But what’s that got to do with what I’ve said about the functions themselves? You’re trying to lessen the sting from my analysis of Fi by bringing in antidotal points. Hypocrisy’s origins is rooted in Fi. Whether the hypocrisy takes flight and explodes to the external environment is another thing all on its own. Mother Theresa is an example of Fe taking Fi’s hypocrisy and exploiting it. I’m sure we could analyze famous types all day, but that wouldn’t invalidate what I’ve said.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    Both Ti and Fi are subjective, and both follow their own 'rules'; the 'objective' functions are Te and Fe. Both Fi and Ti - similar in nature - can be agreed upon, shared or discussed between people. Just because you are retarded with Fi and make 'they are sooo bad' crying posts doesn't mean everyone is bad with it. Hatred of PoLR is understandable to me, but it's as ehhh as me ranting on Fe: I (also) don't see an issue (as I don't consider it something vaguely usable, likable, whatever) but someone who values it sees it.
    Although I’m Fi PoLR, what I’ve said about Fi isn’t biased, it is what it is. You’re just wanting to defend Fi because you value it but this is a PoLR Fi thread so I’m not understanding why you’re talking down Betas. I don’t like my own Quadra (nor any Quadra for that matter) so it doesn’t matter to me. Although Betas are supposed to be group oriented (I am a good team player) and aristocratic, that doesn’t mean that I blindly side with anyone I’m friends/aligned with. Virtually every sphere in life is rifled with nasty Fi personal subjectivity. And although Ti is subjective in nature, it seeks to depersonalize and even out the playing field. Merits are be won by skill, not by being liked or giving up the ass to the judges.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    I'm pretty sure multiple Te-egos (who value Fi) have governed successfully in history; Fi-egos as well. I would personally say myself - maybe it's that 'quadra succession' thing - that after seeing it time after time after time I don't want to see any betas in the 'highest power', at the very least long term. Good for revolutions - if the 'word' of a particular one is right - and nothing else I suppose.


    (going by some 'best rulers/leaders in history' or 'good rulers/leaders' Google mixed with typings either by Jack (with asterixs), Gulenko or just common in community; I'm focusing on Fi/Te types)


    Abraham Lincoln - LSE*
    Akbar the Great - LIE
    Antoninus Pius - SLI*
    Augustus Caesar - LIE*
    Aung San Suu Kyi - EII*
    Charles de Gaulle - ESI*
    Cincinnatus - ESI
    Cyrus the Great - SEE*
    Dwight D. Eisenhower - LSE*
    Elizabeth I - LIE*
    Emperor Meiji - SLI*
    Franklin D. Roosevelt - SEE*
    Frederick the Great - LIE*
    Genghis Khan - SEE*
    George Washington - ESI* (or delta ST?)
    Hannibal - SEE*
    Joseph II, Holy Roman Emperor - LSE*
    Julius Caesar - SEE*
    King David - SEE
    King Solomon - ILI
    Marcus Aurelius - EII*
    Margaret Thatcher - ESI*
    Mikhail Gorbachev - SEE*
    Queen Victoria - ESI*


    (Fe/Ti types alike to above)


    Adolf H. - EIE*
    Alexander the Great - SLE*
    Alfred the Great - LII*
    Ashoka - LII
    Attila - SLE
    Charlemagne - SLE*
    Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor - EIE*
    Cleopatra - EIE*
    Constantine the Great - EIE*
    Ferdinand II of Aragon - EIE* (with his wife Isabella I of Castile - LSI?)
    Frederick I, Holy Roman Emperor - SLE*
    Hammurabi - LSI*
    Joseph Stalin - LSI*
    Louis XIV of France - LSI*
    Mahatma Gandhi - IEI*
    Mehmed the Conqueror - EIE*
    Napoleon Bonaparte - SLE*
    Nelson Mandela - EIE*
    Otto von Bismarck - SLE*
    Peter the Great - SLE*
    Qin Shi Huang - LSI*
    Sargon of Akkad - SLE*
    Thomas Jefferson - LII*
    Winston Churchill - SLE*


    (No typings)


    Alaric - SLE?
    Ataturk - LSI?
    Boudicca - SEE?
    Charles Martel - SXE?
    Cnut the Great - LSE?
    Dan, Duke Wen of Zhou - ESI?
    Gustavus Adolphus - SLE?
    Jawaharlal Nehru - LSE?
    John III Sobieski - SEE?
    Mansa Musa - EIE?
    Saladin - SEE?
    Suleiman the Magnificent - ILI?
    Theodoric the Great - LIE?
    Timur - SLE?
    Umar - SLE?
    In terms of numbers, crazy power struggles, yes, Betas outranks all the Quadras. Most of the names on the list were dictators. No ruler is really benevolent, just a matter of who’s less likely to kill anyone and everyone and it’s likely Beta STs because of Ti. There’s actually a lot of SLE rulers not on the list, like Henry VIII, Caracalla (had his brother murdered and forbade anyone to speak of his name), Gaius Marius (held the most consulships and very successful military general), Maximian (was the brute force that ruled with the brains of LSI Diocletian). Get rid of people closest to you? Hell yes. PoLR Fi is very self-preserving. It’s the people closest to you that know you the most and I’m pretty sure it’s an innate thing for SLEs to know this and discard anyone in their life that poses a threat to them personally. Since SLE has mob Fe, they show concern for masses of people and don’t wantonly purge just anyone. At least SLE rulers came up on their own, albeit through “force” but they fought their way to the top so that’s at least commendable. In terms of sheer volume of power mongers, yes, Betas outranks and it’s probably terrifying to most people because of the crazy power struggles when it comes to getting their way.
    Gamma and Delta rule is less in number and craziness but they also have power handed down to them, fell on their lap so to speak and not likely to want it. If it’s any that seeks it out, it’s almost always SEE because of Se. Unfortunately it’s Fi that fucks them up. Like with Caesar’s downfall, trusting too many “friends.” Then there’s ESI’s uptight morality like no makeup, be virginal, etc. like Queen Victoria. ESI enforces morality through very cruel, suffocating means. Sulla exemplifies Fi carried out in the most vicious, wanton, cruelest means. He killed anyone and everyone rich all in the name of restoring power to the waning aristocracy and Senate and filled up the treasury coffers. He especially hated ambitious SLE Marius but it was because of Marius that Sulla even came into power in the first place. Sulla wanted to execute Caesar which is funny, but speaks more about Se mirror relations than anything.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    A bit off, but I know a (female) SLE like you; we get very well irl, she holds similar opinions to yours. Despite her admirable Se and also admirable knowledge in general, I can't take her seriously, that is beyond an angsty teenager (and she is 30 years my senior). She could be good for a marshal, but not for a leader. Foresight is low, empathy (at least in Fi sense) as well. I don't think she does bad in life, but definitely could be something /more/ with someone of higher Ni (preferably IEI - higher Fx) by her side, whatever she says (I'm sure she would disagree vehemently).[SUP](Moreover, your disregard of Fi can easily destroy a good-Fe atmosphere (but an IEI would show you that better, perhaps; or just defend you from yourself).

    Angsty teenager and she’s in her 50s-60s lol what can I say? We’re energetic and like to keep life spicy. I’m more calm than when I was an angsty teenager a decade ago but I doubt I’d ever be mellow. I don’t think my views on law and order would ever change. Internally, I’m really stable, but externally, I like to move around and do a lot of things. My Granny is SLE (outlived all my other grandparents a long shot) and she’s been a menace in her old folks home since she got there more than 10 years ago (she was the youngest one at age 60 at the time). Aside from being generous and helpful, she’s also very social active and likes talking to everyone. A resident named Sal (in good health) was worried about dying because he was going to turn 82 the next day and his neighbor died at 82. She told him to not be afraid of death because at his age, it’ll probably come suddenly. When an SLE say this sorta shit, it’s funny, but we’re also serious. The reasoning is death is something everyone will experience, so shrug, why get so worked up about it. Se reality.

    I’m very critical of duality because it doesn’t work the way it’s mistakenly thought of. Placing all your weakest parts in another person is not only stupid because they can use it against you but it also doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. Superid is subconscious and no one wants to be exposed to that for long. That’s why when ppl use their mob function too much it blows up on them simply for the fact that they don’t have a strong grasp on it. It’s fine to use it in some sticky situations for a very limited time but never relied upon. In that case, sure, I do that already. I’m not any good at Fe, but when pressed, if I can’t attack with my Se, I’ll acquiesce to Fe. But I’ll still go back to attack with Se. Lead function always rules.

    IEI have a very unstable and overly romantic view of SLE and their usage of Ni is just ultra weird, abstract, and crazy. EIE don’t always make sense, but they make more sense than IEI. I already have IEI friends anyway and they want my Se to push back against their enemies. Their Ni gives them weirdo dreams and spiritual visions (yuck), of which I learn nothing and don’t gain anything from it. They’re also really irresponsible with money (many types are but they’re especially bad with money) and I can’t abide by that. I’ve paid for them countless times because they have no money when we go do stuff. And you could probably blame me for paying but I don’t mind. I just don’t like their forgetfulness with day too day stuff (big pitfall of Ni). It’s one thing when you tell me directly you don’t have money and ask me to pay, which I’ll often say yes, because you directly placed it in front of me. But it’s another level of deception to say “oh whoopsie I forgot my wallet” or “I don’t get paid until next week” when we’re already there ordering stuff. So yeah, my mob Fe don’t like the mood to get ruined and I’ll pay. But it’s not like I can make up 1D Fi with 2D Fe. They’re separate things and I can tolerate more Fe shit than Fi shit.

    Long before I knew about socionics (I started 11 months ago), I’ve noticed that I attract personalities that’s like IEI... soft and sweet but manipulative underneath and want someone with a brutal personality to stick up for them. Then they get hurt by me because I’ve “attacked” them with the same weapon I used to attack their enemies. So no matter what, I’m always the “bad guy.” I’m used to that as it’s been going on all my life. Typical scenario is protecting some meek kid from bullies and then they cling onto me like I’m some goddess. That got me friends in childhood but in adulthood that shit drains the hell out of me. I’m not devoid of Ni, just that it’s very vague and you wouldn’t see it in me unless you actually hung out with me in person. I actually learn Ni through LIE benefactor and ILI semi-dual. I’ve had several LIE mentors over the years, which is why I’m not the same SLE now as when I was a teenager (although I had LIE teachers back then which was probably why I didn’t get punished for doing most of what I did but they still had “talks” with me). I still snatch wigs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    One question: do you propose any real 'solution' to the 'problem' (sans genocide and infringement on human rights)? A large portion of society /values/ Fi. Those people would not be happy with Fi/Te values being excluded. So you are just ranting.
    I wasn’t ranting. Again, just because you don’t like that I exposed Fi for what it doesn’t mean I was ranting. I keep my responses and explanations pretty clear and concise up until this point when I decided to respond bit by bit to your massive post. That being said, your bias against Beta Quadra is very loud and clear but you didn’t do much to stick up for Gammas and Deltas as so much as shown how personal they get from any perceived criticism, which is another major shitty thing with Fi btw. I agree that Beta genocide is a huge problem but that’s because it’s from the low rung Se types aka EIE and IEI. They’re very idealistic and go about causing wars, get shocked by the body count and in the end, it’s the Beta STs that end up having to fight those battles. Shitty Se levels don’t know how to scale aggression and overestimate that it’s easy. It’s easy for SLE. I understand why Gammas would be weary of Betas because the majority of Betas are NFs.

    My response to your question is I think humans are by default programmed to value Fi which is why Fi is the most common and Ti the least common when it comes to judgement functions. I hate Fi because I hate the self-entitlement attitude. That shit needs to go. The only way I can think of is educating minds to value rigid but civilized rules, is have them understand that rules are meant to apply to everyone and serve everyone. Often times, it’s a few disgruntled/rebellious individuals who are on the outs of it, but that doesn’t mean the system should be changed to benefit them. Consequences as a concept should be stressed but also shown examples in real life just so people can make the connection. Ex: commit murder, go to jail. Result: jail sentence. Fi says, but not all murderers get caught. Ti says, true but they’re one offs and the system isn’t broken just because a few haven’t been caught yet when you look up jail statistics on those in jail for murder (Te route). People need to understand that the world doesn’t revolve around them. Although personal preferences are important to maintain individuality, life doesn’t begin nor end with you. Life’s bigger than that. There were others who came before you and there’s others who’ll came after you.
    Last edited by Lolita; 10-02-2020 at 07:56 AM.

  40. #680

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    TIM
    SLE-Ti-N
    Posts
    441
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CoViD Spurdo 007 View Post
    Well, simple logic says without Fi that if object A takes privileges over other objects that is destructive and it should enable other objects taking similar privileges implies simply that it will not be long standing position. But if you as Fi base were born into a culture that has a norm of bunching others you would see it as your responsibility to whack others senseless whereas Ti would question it and it would be up to that individual to decide wheter to follow Fi norm or not.
    Haha great yeah. That reasoning there is very comfortably "Fi-devoid" for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by SnatchYourWeave View Post
    Technically, NOBODY (and I don’t mean the dude who has the Cuties avatar) wants LSI’s brand of order. The keyword is want. The reality is it’s necessary. LSI are best at installing law and order out of chaos and SLE is the enforcer of those orders. Ti exemplify order; codified, explicit, and concrete reference. Ti is civilized law whereas Fi rules often lead to disorder and is arbitrary. An eye for an eye is Fi thing, which is barbaric and full of endless reprisals. Whereas, Ti law wants to hold everyone accountable for the same rule.
    Interestingly enough, for my personal life where law doesn't cover things, I do eye for eye for wrongs committed against me/my family/my friends, while for not personal and for public/societal stuff, I hold everyone accountable by the same abstract rules. The eye for eye thing is though also rule based. Hammurabi also used the eye for eye principle. I would not think that Fi "rules" lead to disorder or that they are arbitrary BTW, ExIs are supposed to be very consistent just like LxIs, it's just based in feelings. The barbaric stuff makes me think of Fe&Se more for some reason, lol.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •