Fi PoLR - Misunderstood

[krieger]

i thought this was a pretty good example of both how Fi PoLR can manifest in an ESTp (Gyp Rosetti) and how a PoLR does not typically mean a complete lack of an orientation or inclination to a mentality, but more so a poorly modulated one such that it just as easily veers to an unhinged extreme as to inactivity.

"WHAT THE FUCK IS LIFE IF ITS NOT PERSONAL" is such an extreme in the case of Fi. pretty cool.

also well worth watching for its own sake, of course.

ps. i'm not going to stick around for "debates" on what this guy's type is if this isn't found convincing

[xerx]

I agree with the typing.

I think, crucially, a Polr is an area where the associated element's qualia is too lacking to allow for a nuanced appraisal of its associated information aspect. Its qualia's relative weakness gives its absence a more visceral quality overall, rather than simply being an aversion to an unvalued aspect of the world.


The Polr is more readily grasped in the intellectual sense through words or the function's extrinsic interactions, via a primitive lens lacking a well-defined theory of mind. Wild swings in orientation are one manifestation of what can happen when dealing with a black box.


Nevertheless, the fact that those feelings don't register doesn't mean that they don't occasionally bubble up to the surface. Another example of Fi-polr is feeling the effects of an emotional moment weeks after the fact.


IMO

[Aylen]

I don't know about types but love the series.

[strrrng]

I know OP didn't want to debate type, so I'll just offer my interpretation as a clarification on the scenes themselves.

I type Gyp Rosetti LSE. I see his little temper tantrum as an over reaction to a perceived slight that entails a complete disregard for the objective boundaries of the interaction () and hence the nuances of the social protocol at hand (). his little "you x, you y" etc. is a very infantile, way of getting back at his supposed persecutors.

I think, crucially, a Polr is an area where the associated element's qualia is too lacking to allow for a nuanced appraisal of its associated information aspect. Its qualia's relative weakness gives its absence a more visceral quality overall, rather than simply being an aversion to an unvalued aspect of the world.

the bolded is why I can't see it as a polr hit. the polr is something people are naturally averse to and distant from, it's something that is implicitly eschewed, and even when attention is drawn to it, avoidance is often the most common defense measure.

in this case it seems that his personal valuations were overlooked; Nucky attempts to maintain the , noting at one point that he's "making his decision that much easier," reinforcing the boundaries Rosetti is so clearly overstepping. compare to the scene in the beginning of breaking bad, where the hispanic dealer (forgot his name and too lazy to look) flips out on Jesse and Walt; yes, there's no whatsoever, but the issue is with the boundaries at hand, the 'power play' he sees Jesse embarking on, and despite flipping out, he still maintains his own to a decent degree. Rosetti is completely out of hand, and has the more blunt, domineering attitude of xSEs.

additionally, the whole "WHAT IS IT IF IT ISN'T PERSONAL" suggests valued , not polr. it's a reflection of his inability to internalize the protocol of the game with regard to what he deems to be personal principle, or propriety.

also, picking up the dog after flipping out was kind an prop effect, lol.


I don't think the actor's likely being an extraverted sensor significantly blurs my perception on the matter, but again, it's just my two cents.

also, boardwalk empire is pretty dope.

[The Reality Denialist]

Fakeness: I think that the role function is the fake function. I can sniff fake Fe. ETjs never fool me in there.
I know that I fake Se. It is like I think that I'm hesitant and unsure doing it but I have to do it.

Fi... Well. I don't like to express it all. I might do it if objective F requires it.
True vulnerability of Fi comes out later when I use my ignoring function alone. Yes, it is painful.
All my friendships comes from others initiative. I don't really know about it until someone says it to me. Even then I'm in doubt.
I don't understand full spectrum of feelings. They are like seeds for war in other end. Who needs that? Yes, I like being positive or neutral.

I have seen pretty bad meltdown of SLE. He became very unstable and couldn't control himself. It wasn't anything physical but more like emotional collapse and lots of dramatics. For me it is retreating away from everyone or complete silence and shutdown with no response.

[sushi]

just wanted to know if this would be an example of having fi-polr:

i hate goodbyes. i feel like they're so awkward and i hate the emotions that come out of them. the "oh i'll miss you so much" "i liked having you around, i'll miss you". as much as i can, i try to avoid directly saying goodbye to people because of the awkwardness of it all. growing up my mother would always have to force me to tell people bye.


well?

[malna]

No.

[Persephone]

No it's an example of being human... And consequences of your experience with separation that can happen to anyone.

[Sol]

Social rituals is F region, so this issue may relate to T type. It's hard to link more concretely.

[sushi]

ok thanks guys

[Beautiful sky]

Fi polr people do feel bad. They have feelings just as any human maybe but yes the awkwardness could be related to the polr because I would say that though it makes me feel bad I don't feel awkward and why would you (a serious question) or maybe not so serious and somewhat sounding patronizing. In any case I don't see a reason to feel awkward

You could say that I feel bad and express feelings of sadness.

[Contra]

i completely relate to the OP. idk why people perpetuate the ritual. Most of the time its pretty fake.

[Beautiful sky]

I told my nephew to be courteous and polite and always greet his grandparents with hello and bye. Observe social formalities

[blank]

I tend to find people who make a pageant of gross sentimentality of their goodbyes to be a bit much I suppose. A former creative writing teacher of mine who is EII made my class gather round and do like a bunch of games and goodbye rituals to ease his weepy heart. At the end he gave a speech and started crying about how much he would miss us and blah blah blah. Cringe inducing to the max. It always comes off as self indulgent to me if overly sentimental but I have no troubles with more measured goodbyes.

[Beautiful sky]

I tend to find people who make a pageant of gross sentimentality of their goodbyes to be a bit much I suppose. A former creative writing teacher of mine who is EII made my class gather round and do like a bunch of games and goodbye rituals to ease his weepy heart. At the end he gave a speech and started crying about how much he would miss us and blah blah blah. Cringe inducing to the max. It always comes off as self indulgent to me if overly sentimental but I have no troubles with more measured goodbyes.

She established a bond with you guys and she's sad that everyone is now leaving

[blank]

She established a bond with you guys and she's sad that everyone is now leaving

Orlly

[Beautiful sky]

Orlly

I feel like people become like a Fi base types favorite dress and when that dress gets ripped a little girl starts to cry that they no longer will be able to wear it so they'll have to let it go. You can live without it but the sad impression that it makes is really profound

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

A priest explained to me well that saying hi and bye (even if you feel shy/introverted/don't want to) is good dharma. Or karma. Or smarma. Or something...anyway it's good for you spiritually as you are getting outside of yourself. I'm not very religious but I kinda liked what he said regardless. It's just naturally awkward for all introverts I think, but try to get out of yourself a bit and you might find more freedom in that.

You don't have to exaggerate or be silly with it though or anything... you don't have to be like 'omg I'll miss you sooo much!' in a fake valley girl voice. LoL.

[epheme]

No, my SEI father lives across the country. Whenever I'm leaving his state to come back home he never says bye. The night before he'll go to bed like normal, and then usually avoid me the next morning by being sure to be somewhere else when I leave for the airport.

When my SLE (Fi-PoLR) had to leave for work for a few months his goodbye was full of tears and emotions.

NTR

[uncivilized]

The end in all things is important. I feel like people denigrating the act of saying goodbyes is actually hitting some polr of mine. "fuck off with the goodbyes as they are fake, meaningless nonsense," ouch.

[Muddy]

There are some Fi-Polrs, SLEs especially that I couldn't ever imagine saying the sorts of things OP mentioned. Imagine Trump being placed into a situation where he has say these sort of things...

[maniac]

Not necessarily. I know people with social phobia/anxiety who hates goodbyes because they just feel awkward cause they overthink it.

[Milo]

Is this an example of Fi polr?

Male SLE asked if anyone has been in love with him. He responds that he has been married twice.

[Exodus]

Is this an example of Fi polr?

Male SLE asked if anyone has been in love with him. He responds that he has been married twice.

Not necessarily Fi PoLR, but it does suggest lack of comfort in talking about Fi feelings topics, and a diversion towards Te factual information. Most logical types would probably be uncomfortable with such a question.

[Myst]

Good thread idea. Fi polr. Let's see... I think it can manifest itself in the following ways:

1. Someone dies and the Fi polr individual feels uneasy. What to say, do, how sensitive to be, what the relatives are feeling, what's expected of him emotionally. He requires help here and can only really offer practical assistance. Knows he's out of his league to comfort and simply leaves the situation altogether, feeling useless unless he's with a partner he can count on to fill that gap.

2. Can't tell how others feel about him. Needs outward signals like hugs, words, smiles. If he doesn't get these, he either waits for more information or goes elsewhere. Just doesn't have confidence of others' feelings towards him. And sometimes isn't sure of his own feelings. Questions himself in this area. Likes it when someone else tells him how they feel because he can then fall in line with that, or not. Gets confused easily about relationships unless things are spelled out.

3. Values loyalty. Once he has a friend he really trusts, he expects that friendship to last forever (at least from his end). Almost like an all-or-nothing type of thing. He either trusts that person, or he doesn't.

4. Sometimes says inappropriate things without intending to offend. Doesn't always know what's offensive, SAYS IT LIKE IT IS without shading. This can be very refreshing to some, or put-offish to others. And the fi polr person then gravitates towards those who aren't offended by him and opens up more as time goes on. He then stays away from people who look at him askance. It's just this handicap, almost, of not knowing what exactly is likely to hurt someone's feelings. It's not so much that he doesn't care (although that might be true also) but more that he just doesn't think about it, it doesn't occur to him that someone else might be that sensitive. Of course over time, he learns.

Does any SLE here really relate to 2) as written, word by word? Seems more 1D Fe to me than any kind of Fe HA. 3) and 4) seem just beta ST as far as this stuff is specific to type. 1) seems specific enough to Fi PoLR alright.

[Allegra]

Fi lead is judgmental
Fe lead is phony

Extreme Fi PoLR is the ultimate opportunist who has no ethical stances
Extreme Fe PoLR is the ultimate stone face who doesn't understand emotions

Pick your poison

[The Reality Denialist]

Not really that. Fi is about relating to people in everyday life. Stuff like that. I can not do it. My mind likes to say: forget your troubles, lay it down one by one and think about it.

[falsehope]

[X T]

Does any SLE here really relate to 2) as written, word by word? Seems more 1D Fe to me than any kind of Fe HA. 3) and 4) seem just beta ST as far as this stuff is specific to type. 1) seems specific enough to Fi PoLR alright.

I'm not sure of my type yet, and I'm having difficulty understanding what Fi PoLR really is, so can anyone tell me if it applies here?

1. Someone dies and the Fi polr individual feels uneasy. What to say, do, how sensitive to be, what the relatives are feeling, what's expected of him emotionally. He requires help here and can only really offer practical assistance. Knows he's out of his league to comfort and simply leaves the situation altogether, feeling useless unless he's with a partner he can count on to fill that gap.

I relate to this a lot. When I was a child and the news was broken to me that my grandmother died, I didn't really know how to react other than thinking to myself, "Well, that happens sometimes," so I just said, "Really?" and tried to sound sad. It wasn't that I didn't care, I just didn't have a reaction. Then my grandfather died about two years ago and basically the same thing happened. I just tried to help out and participate in the formalities but didn't say much at all.

2. Can't tell how others feel about him. Needs outward signals like hugs, words, smiles. If he doesn't get these, he either waits for more information or goes elsewhere. Just doesn't have confidence of others' feelings towards him. And sometimes isn't sure of his own feelings. Questions himself in this area. Likes it when someone else tells him how they feel because he can then fall in line with that, or not. Gets confused easily about relationships unless things are spelled out.

I figure people like me well enough if they're voluntarily spending time with me, but if anyone has any strong feelings about me, I'm unaware of it unless they make it apparent like that.

3. Values loyalty. Once he has a friend he really trusts, he expects that friendship to last forever (at least from his end). Almost like an all-or-nothing type of thing. He either trusts that person, or he doesn't.

Yes but there are very few people who have gotten to that point.

4. Sometimes says inappropriate things without intending to offend. Doesn't always know what's offensive, SAYS IT LIKE IT IS without shading. This can be very refreshing to some, or put-offish to others. And the fi polr person then gravitates towards those who aren't offended by him and opens up more as time goes on. He then stays away from people who look at him askance. It's just this handicap, almost, of not knowing what exactly is likely to hurt someone's feelings. It's not so much that he doesn't care (although that might be true also) but more that he just doesn't think about it, it doesn't occur to him that someone else might be that sensitive. Of course over time, he learns.

As a kid, I'd joke at a friend's expense because I thought I was just being funny and nothing more and often ended up getting in trouble for it. Or laughing when a friend said some kind of personal opinion that didn't make sense to me and I thought they were joking. Followed by, "What are you laughing at?" But I don't have that problem so much anymore. If it's a formal setting I can just avoid that territory completely. When I'm talking to my friends I don't really think about if something could offend them but I don't think I've ever done so. If I have, they haven't said anything to me. So I'm not sure.

[Myst]

I relate to this a lot. When I was a child and the news was broken to me that my grandmother died, I didn't really know how to react other than thinking to myself, "Well, that happens sometimes," so I just said, "Really?" and tried to sound sad. It wasn't that I didn't care, I just didn't have a reaction. Then my grandfather died about two years ago and basically the same thing happened. I just tried to help out and participate in the formalities but didn't say much at all.

That does sound Fi PoLR-ish afaik

As a kid, I'd joke at a friend's expense because I thought I was just being funny and nothing more and often ended up getting in trouble for it. Or laughing when a friend said some kind of personal opinion that didn't make sense to me and I thought they were joking. Followed by, "What are you laughing at?" But I don't have that problem so much anymore. If it's a formal setting I can just avoid that territory completely. When I'm talking to my friends I don't really think about if something could offend them but I don't think I've ever done so. If I have, they haven't said anything to me. So I'm not sure.

Doesn't every kid joke like that... I did too then stopped later when I noticed it was not that "appropriate" or that it would bother someone. (I actually went over to the other extreme: never doing it by default. There has to be some very explicit mood for it with people for me to even do much joking of any kind.) But really, a lot of people do it even as adults too, no? I guess Fi PoLRs are just approaching the behaviour in a different way cognitively... like not paying as much attention to some reactions etc?


OK so assuming you are SLE, do you relate to this as is: "Needs outward signals like hugs, words, smiles. If he doesn't get these, he either waits for more information or goes elsewhere" and "Likes it when someone else tells him how they feel because he can then fall in line with that, or not. Gets confused easily about relationships unless things are spelled out."?

[X T]

Doesn't every kid joke like that...

I was wondering that too. I guess the part that stands out to me is that I didn't feel guilty when it happened, just more confused and internally blaming the other kid for taking it the wrong way or being weak or something. I don't know what that means in terms of cognition though.

OK so assuming you are SLE, do you relate to this as is: "Needs outward signals like hugs, words, smiles. If he doesn't get these, he either waits for more information or goes elsewhere" and "Likes it when someone else tells him how they feel because he can then fall in line with that, or not. Gets confused easily about relationships unless things are spelled out."?

I guess not? I mean I can appreciate those things but I'm not actively looking for them. As long as the other person seems like they want to be there I'm OK.

[Myst]

I was wondering that too. I guess the part that stands out to me is that I didn't feel guilty when it happened, just more confused and internally blaming the other kid for taking it the wrong way or being weak or something. I don't know what that means in terms of cognition though.

I was confused too. *Vaguely* feeling like it was wrong would come either right away or with a delay. I don't think I ever blamed anyone for taking it wrong, hm but I'm not Fi PoLR.

I guess not? I mean I can appreciate those things but I'm not actively looking for them. As long as the other person seems like they want to be there I'm OK.

Yeah that part seemed more strongly seeking Fe than what I've ever seen Fe HA as, lol. Not that I personally experience Fe seeking like this either with feeling the need for all this directly, it's too unconscious for that, but it looks like that to some people, apparently. I definitely relate to waiting for more Fe information and to the part about deciding if I will fall in line with information on how the other person feels towards me or not. All that to me does seem more passive than what SLEs do with Fe but @niffer could chime in here. Also the same about being unclear about relationships unless Fe things are "spelled out", I mean I relate to this.

[domr]

@Liriope

Fi is deducing ethics. Fe is inducing ethics.

A person with Fi PoLR has very poor ability in being able to predict how other people will view their actions or decisions ethically.

[The Reality Denialist]

That would be suggestive. PoLR is the "oops I stirred the shit again but it does not matter as long as logic holds but someone could make it look better". That is people's relation to stuff...


Let me illustrate an example of Ti vs Fi conflict:

Ti says that action is what they do is utter shit and it goes against several rules.
Fi says: but they have family to feed.
Ti says: they should have thought about it earlier breaking the rules to feed themselves is still a violation and they should have never procreated.

[niffer]

@Liriope you strike me as LSI>SLE

[niffer]

I’m mostly terrified of becoming close to other people. But I want it really at the same time. Clear enough for you guys?

[Myst]

I’m mostly terrified of becoming close to other people. But I want it really at the same time. Clear enough for you guys?

Yeah clear lol thanks

I think I would use a less strong word than "terrified" so that would be a difference for sure. IDK what @Liriope thinks there?

[The Reality Denialist]

I think I tend to have issues with consequences and feelings when it comes to decision making. On some level it is bit like question of right of something while having existence. I mean that we tend to function chaotically. Why can we allow it to happen? It generates good and bad things while we can not have certainty about utilization. Lots of things seem to have two edged sword thing going on. Predetermination is the responsible thing to do while it is an impossibility. It kind of makes me question right for human existence.

[X T]

I’m mostly terrified of becoming close to other people. But I want it really at the same time. Clear enough for you guys?

Yeah clear lol thanks

I think I would use a less strong word than "terrified" so that would be a difference for sure. IDK what @Liriope thinks there?

I do have that problem but I thought it was an enneagram sx-last thing. Like I have a bad habit of abandoning potential friends when I start to feel like they have some kind of personal expectations of me or something instead of just wanting to hang out, despite still wanting to have closer friends, but it just freaks me out. If that makes sense. I don't like that I do that though.

[niffer]

I think I tend to have issues with consequences and feelings when it comes to decision making. On some level it is bit like question of right of something while having existence. I mean that we tend to function chaotically. Why can we allow it to happen? It generates good and bad things while we can not have certainty about utilization. Lots of things seem to have two edged sword thing going on. Predetermination is the responsible thing to do while it is an impossibility. It kind of makes me question right for human existence.

3deep5me

Edit; it took me a minute or two to think about this but I’m in agreement with you. I’ve thought about these things before but I don’t do so actively.