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Thread: Fi PoLR - Misunderstood

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    What do other people think about the "social/empty/not forming bonds" attitude versus the "shows little emotion/forming strong bonds with people" attitude?

    As I've said, the latter one is definatley me, and in theory, that works... but I don't care what's just "in theory"... for example, according to the theory, ENFP would feel the same as ISTP, but I don't think it's really like that. They may be more like the first one. That's why I'm asking people.
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    I form very strong bonds with a few people (who are very important to me), but most people I have the social/empty/not forming bonds kind of relationship with.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    What do other people think about the "social/empty/not forming bonds" attitude versus the "shows little emotion/forming strong bonds with people" attitude?

    As I've said, the latter one is definatley me, and in theory, that works... but I don't care what's just "in theory"... for example, according to the theory, ENFP would feel the same as ISTP, but I don't think it's really like that. They may be more like the first one. That's why I'm asking people.
    Generally, even in a relationship, I don't feel bonded. Even though I might cry as the relationship is ending. There have been a couple of exceptions though...1 istp, 2 isfps, and 1 xxFex. For me, it's not so much a matter of emotion...as it is acceptance. If I do not feel accepted, good and bad, then I don't seem to form a bond.

    I do have a thing about keeping in touch, but it's a curiosity thing, not a bond thing.
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    @Nicky and Ann: thanks, that's along the lines of what I thought...

    ... in addition, it seems to me that IxTJs do not use Extraverted Feeling in the same way that Herzy described. Yes, I know this stuff goes against the Quadras... but so what? Personally, yeah, I do see all four IxTxs prefering (i.e. more comfortable in) using Fi>Fe.

    Anyone agree?
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    Great thread.
    I do have a lot of them, but after a while, they fade out of friendship if I haven't talked to them for a while. I don't really have an issue with this, because I don't get too attached to people in the first place.
    Interesting that so many of these "problem areas" are exactly the opposite of IEEs, who preserve connections with people across time and space and periodically warm up the in the relationship.

    On the other hand, I have no personal gripes against SLEs at all. I was forced to live with one for 4 months, and we would have very vocal arguments, but when we parted ways and ran into each other a year later, it was as if nothing bad had happened. I like them for their impulsiveness and will to make things happen... now.

    I think with SLEs and with all types in general, when a person is by himself and starts to ruminate about his problems, he tends to dwell on the weakness of his Super-ego functions. But in real-life interaction with duals and activators (especially), his attention is switched to the Super-id functions that he keeps forgetting about on his own, and the supposed Super-ego problems just sort of resolve themselves. So I think the solution to SLEs' ethical difficulties is to focus on , not . Often I see them bringing people together for eating and drinking and sharing funny stories (with lots of loud hearty laughter), and many are very generous as a way of winning people over ("buying them with "). Also, part of Beta quadra's emphasis on emotional unity (making sure everyone is emotionally involved) comes from SLE's vulnerable . By making sure everyone is emotionally involved, they can avoid situations where people might relate to them negatively (a negative feeling towards them) but not show it. They can weed these people out by looking at whether they express the group emotions or not.

    Just some thoughts...

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    Default Re: Fi PoLR - Misunderstood.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarah
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Could both ExTPs and ExTJs actually do this sort of "faking" thing? And both IxTJ and IxTP are generally against it?
    I'm generally against it, but I sometimes do it without even thinking when I'm feeling uncomfortable in a social setting. It's sort of a defense mechanism. If I notice, I'll try to tone it down, but it's hard for me to stop entirely. I have seen my ISTj friend do it as well. She doesn't go overboard with it, though, and it doesn't seem to bother her later, since she seems to just think of it as a sort of protocol. (I don't know if other ISTjs are the same way.)

    I actually can't see ENTjs doing this at all. They seem to try to be as honest and as straightforward as possible, regardless of the social setting. The ENTjs I know are friendly and polite when meeting new people, but never fake. They use Fe, but only to express genuine interest. (At least, I have never seen otherwise.) I don't know any ESTjs well, so I can't comment on their behavior.
    I totally agree on ENTjs, where intuitive subtypes are somewhat more inclined to use .


    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    ... in addition, it seems to me that IxTJs do not use Extraverted Feeling in the same way that Herzy described. Yes, I know this stuff goes against the Quadras... but so what? Personally, yeah, I do see all four IxTxs prefering (i.e. more comfortable in) using Fi>Fe.

    Anyone agree?
    Not really - - as Sarah already pointed out, I do think ISTjs tend to prefer over . It's not obvious because they are subdued, but I think is more "natural" for them than .

    Not sure about INTjs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Question @Herzy:

    What does mean to you?


    If you're wondering why I'm asking, it's because no one seems to understand the differences between / on this forum any more. And there's been a lot of debate over it (and it can relate to this thread...).
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    Cool, let's see!


    Basically, I see as a supporter for everything I take in via (obviously, haha). What I do, is I take in a bunch of information using the . Then, I use the to organize it all into its importance. For example, I use pretty often when I teach swimming lessons. I'll see exactly what the kids are doing using my . I'll take note of their movements, speed, positioning, form, etc. Then, I'll use my subjective model of what their strokes are supposed to look like, then compare it to the information I've obtained through my base function . When I do this, I can see what they're doing wrong. Then, I'll use the even more to formulate a method as to get them to improve. I'll determine which areas need immediate working on, and which things can slide for now. This helps them improve in a much more rapid manner than if I weren't using at all, because then they'd be working on all the wrong things at the wrong time.

    So what does this all mean to me? Simply put, I see as one's logical analysis based on their own formulated standards. Of course, because of this, it'll vary between person to person, and often times there will be a large difference between one's and another's. This is especially true depending on whether it supports or is supported by or . I use the to support my , which means that it's mainly under the influence of as well (duh ). Therefore, I use it to help with the whole organization in heirarchies, to know the laws of living (hard to explain here), and to figure out the relative importance of various variables. people would use it differently, so I can't really speak for them right here.

    I hope this helped a bit!
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    Believe it or not, I also use comments (that fit the current situation perfectly) to win people over and make them laugh. It actually works for me too. Oh yeah, and it also works for my INTj twin brother too. Everyone thinks that he's a hilarious person.
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    Do you think you become more competative in mode?
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Do you think you become more competative in mode?
    Hmm, that's tough to answer. The thing is, is that I don't consciously revert into mode; it just happens. Like, I'll be doing my whole business, and all the sudden, I'll get a little burst of , and then revert back to . When I'm in a competitive situation, I'm much more likely to be using than . Although, I should probably learn to use the a little more when I'm competing, because whenever I do, it pops in and provides me with an excellent solution to whatever is being competed over. Then, I revert back into yet again, where I implement this with a Pow!

    So uhh, to answer your question, probably not. I find that I when I'm in mode, I tend to organize my thoughts a bit, which would probably make me less competitive.
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    1) Thanks for the replies.

    2) I've been know to make some awkward (out of place) comments that make people laugh as well, don't know how type related that is.

    3) I don't know if I can use myself as an accurate representation of my type. I say this because I'm a lefty. I can relate to what a lot of peope have said about things like , , etc... and I can't really make a distinction between the two (it's weird, since the Feeling functions are much more defined- I'm the oppostie of you there). As sad as it sounds, I still don't see strong "lines" between them in myself. I blame it on being born left-handed.

    4) Hmm... competative wise, I may be more competative when I'm in my more "focused" mode. That's all I could say for now.
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    No problem! Oh yeah, and I'm left handed too. So is my INTj brother, as well as my ISFj mom.
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    I agree is not about being socially handicapped. Being socially handicapped is lack of . There was a suggestion about lack of having something to do with social problems. I think it is just Alpha NT:s who are handicapped in this sense INTjs obviously but ENTps too in their own way.

    There was a claim of ExTjs being phony and fake. I can't back that up. ExTps
    are the phony ones ExTjs are certainly not empathic and usually quite judging but they are very real. You don't have to guess what they really think. They spit it in your face with their mighty Maybe I just haven't met the phony ones.

    Comparing ESTps and ENTps...ESTps are way more socially skilled in my experience. ENTps are usually "intellectually aggressive" in a way that can't be said to be socially skilled. They very often challenge people for what they said and create conflict more likely than an impression of socially fluent person. I have only spent time with one "confirmed" ENTp and it was weird how she made stuff up and actually thought that would fool someone. Her claims were sometimes so absurd I didn't know whether she herself believed them or not And after one week the claim was different but even more absurd. ENTp would be the best person to have a debate with him/herself. For example in a forum like this an ENTp could easily fill a thread by countering his/her own arguments over and over again. And it would even be entertaining. I can't say it is socially skilled though.

    As far as ESTps go. It is relatively easy to see through their "phony Fe" too They can sometimes surprise you in a way that momentarily you think they CARE but then you remember they are ESTps, heh If I understood what Herzy said they actually do CARE but only temporarily. So it is not about being evil and phony it is more about having a warm heart and the emotional memory of a gold fish. I like this version better. It means they probably did like me for the moments they seemed to like me.

    Actually it is fun to point it out to them when they are being phony. It usually somehow amuses them. They go silent and make a weird stoic but at the same time astonished face like a child who has just got caught doing something forbidden I can usually "play" with ESTps insecurities pretty well without them getting too annoyed about it. Especially I like to create gloomy future scenarios in their mind which they almost believe for a second before they laugh and punch me for trying to mess with their head.

    ESTps want to feel STRONG but on the other hand are very insecure. It is an interesting combination. Then again they admit they have insecurities. They are very concerned about their weakenesses which is natural for an aggressor. Where ENTj is often very judging towards other people's weaknesses (Victim behavior) ESTp can be very judging towards their own weaknesses. Like one probable ESTp child who was afraid of thunder and just couldn't accept it. With a really sad face said things like "I'm afraid of thunder. I'm such a coward!". All the other kids were afraid of thunder too but the ESTp didn't judge them for that. Only herself. An ENTj would probably have noted the weaknesses of other kids but ignored his/her own weaknesses.

    With the ENTp I know I don't have this kind of dynamics. We have arguments easily and it can get heated pretty fast if I'm not very careful of what I say. ENTp is helluva beast in intellectual argumentation and very hard to beat so I usually prefer to say the bare minimum in order to avoid conflict or heated argument. Just try to be nice (phony me ) I don't know if this would happen with other ENTps Has not happened in the forum so far so I'm positive I can have a good relations with an ENTp IRL Just that I'm not sure what force would pull and keep me and ENTps together. There is not much to give or to gain there it seems. Maybe that will change. I need to meet more of them

    So despite all the good and funny things, in the end interactions between people having and PoLR is problematic for many reasons. The person with PoLR can't project enough enthusiasm and such e.g. for an ESTp to be sure about themselves and the state of the relations. Then again the knowledge of the fact that no matter how good time we have at this very moment or how well we connect this very moment will have pretty much no meaning to the ESTp tomorrow doesn't really encourage the PoLR person to push that PoLR. I can't live "in the moment" enough to not care about that. With ESTps I somehow feel I'm just a toy being used to have some fun and will be tossed away as soon as something more fun comes along. With the ENTp I feel I'm a resource whose brain is attached to some kind of "brain milking machine" until nothing is left. Then I'm tossed away.

    That's my unofficial and unorganized late night take on this matter.

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    Your post made me !




    So it is not about being evil and phony it is more about having a warm heart and the emotional memory of a gold fish.
    Good way to put it!

    I usually have a very crappy emotional memory, except when I remember stuff about times I've shared with my INFp friends. That makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.
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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    I agree is not about being socially handicapped. Being socially handicapped is lack of . There was a suggestion about lack of having something to do with social problems. I think it is just Alpha NT:s who are handicapped in this sense INTjs obviously but ENTps too in their own way.
    I disagree.

    Where ENTj is often very judging towards other people's weaknesses (Victim behavior) ESTp can be very judging towards their own weaknesses. Like one probable ESTp child who was afraid of thunder and just couldn't accept it. With a really sad face said things like "I'm afraid of thunder. I'm such a coward!". All the other kids were afraid of thunder too but the ESTp didn't judge them for that. Only herself. An ENTj would probably have noted the weaknesses of other kids but ignored his/her own weaknesses.
    According to this definition, I'm , not .
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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    ESTps want to feel STRONG but on the other hand are very insecure. It is an interesting combination. Then again they admit they have insecurities. They are very concerned about their weakenesses which is natural for an aggressor. Where ENTj is often very judging towards other people's weaknesses (Victim behavior) ESTp can be very judging towards their own weaknesses. Like one probable ESTp child who was afraid of thunder and just couldn't accept it. With a really sad face said things like "I'm afraid of thunder. I'm such a coward!". All the other kids were afraid of thunder too but the ESTp didn't judge them for that. Only herself. An ENTj would probably have noted the weaknesses of other kids but ignored his/her own weaknesses.
    Every ENTj's going to feel ESTp if we were to suppose the truthfulness of this observation of yours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    ESTps want to feel STRONG but on the other hand are very insecure. It is an interesting combination. Then again they admit they have insecurities. They are very concerned about their weakenesses which is natural for an aggressor. Where ENTj is often very judging towards other people's weaknesses (Victim behavior) ESTp can be very judging towards their own weaknesses. Like one probable ESTp child who was afraid of thunder and just couldn't accept it. With a really sad face said things like "I'm afraid of thunder. I'm such a coward!". All the other kids were afraid of thunder too but the ESTp didn't judge them for that. Only herself. An ENTj would probably have noted the weaknesses of other kids but ignored his/her own weaknesses.
    Every ENTj's going to feel ESTp if we were to suppose the truthfulness of this observation of yours.
    Well I can't even reliably tell what type the kids are so take it with a grain of salt

    Anyways I tend to think aggressor and victim types have a slightly different attitude towards their own and others weaknesses. Aggressors are not as judging towards other people's weaknesses. After all it is exactly those weaknesses that make them strong and help them fulfill their role. Victims tend to see others weaknesses as a serious flaw in the person. Aggressors use other's weaknesses. Victims judge other's weaknesses. This is overgeneralization and probably depends on the type.
    The observation was an attempt to prove this point. The point itself was not inducted from the observation. So the claim can very well be discussed further even if the observation is unreliable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    I agree Introverted Feeling is not about being socially handicapped. Being socially handicapped is lack of Extraverted Feeling. There was a suggestion about lack of Extraverted Sensing having something to do with social problems. I think it is just Alpha NT:s who are handicapped in this sense Very Happy INTjs obviously but ENTps too in their own way.
    I disagree.
    This time my opinion on ENTps is inducted from a single person which can't be proven to be ENTp. I agree you can disagree and be right Anyways this ENTp is very talkative and in a sort of managerial position in an organization but still so out of touch with "real world" that I see it as being socially handicapped in some sense. In the same sense Einstein was socially handicapped. Saying and doing some weird stuff in weird moments. Being unnecessary argumentative when it doesn't support achieving a defined goal. Things like that. Vague definition but can't come up with a better one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Where ENTj is often very judging towards other people's weaknesses (Victim behavior) ESTp can be very judging towards their own weaknesses. Like one probable ESTp child who was afraid of thunder and just couldn't accept it. With a really sad face said things like "I'm afraid of thunder. I'm such a coward!". All the other kids were afraid of thunder too but the ESTp didn't judge them for that. Only herself. An ENTj would probably have noted the weaknesses of other kids but ignored his/her own weaknesses.
    According to this definition, I'm Introverted Thinking , not Extraverted Thinking
    This was more about Victim vs. Aggressor not so much about vs Of course you can claim erotic attitudes can't be used this way. This issue was however discussed in another thread and I got the impression they can be used (to some extent).

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    I agree Introverted Feeling is not about being socially handicapped. Being socially handicapped is lack of Extraverted Feeling. There was a suggestion about lack of Extraverted Sensing having something to do with social problems. I think it is just Alpha NT:s who are handicapped in this sense Very Happy INTjs obviously but ENTps too in their own way.
    I disagree.
    This time my opinion on ENTps is inducted from a single person which can't be proven to be ENTp. I agree you can disagree and be right Anyways this ENTp is very talkative and in a sort of managerial position in an organization but still so out of touch with "real world" that I see it as being socially handicapped in some sense. In the same sense Einstein was socially handicapped. Saying and doing some weird stuff in weird moments. Being unnecessary argumentative when it doesn't support achieving a defined goal. Things like that. Vague definition but can't come up with a better one.
    Yeah, because we all know ENTPs are argumentive and say weird stuff at weird times. This is exaclty why Einstien wasn't ENTP. If you type all INTPs as ENTPs, and ENTPs as ESTPs, then of course you'll think that ENTPs are socially handicapped or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    I agree Introverted Feeling is not about being socially handicapped. Being socially handicapped is lack of Extraverted Feeling. There was a suggestion about lack of Extraverted Sensing having something to do with social problems. I think it is just Alpha NT:s who are handicapped in this sense Very Happy INTjs obviously but ENTps too in their own way.
    I disagree.
    This time my opinion on ENTps is inducted from a single person which can't be proven to be ENTp. I agree you can disagree and be right Anyways this ENTp is very talkative and in a sort of managerial position in an organization but still so out of touch with "real world" that I see it as being socially handicapped in some sense. In the same sense Einstein was socially handicapped. Saying and doing some weird stuff in weird moments. Being unnecessary argumentative when it doesn't support achieving a defined goal. Things like that. Vague definition but can't come up with a better one.
    Yeah, because we all know ENTPs are argumentive and say weird stuff at weird times. This is exaclty why Einstien wasn't ENTP. If you type all INTPs as ENTPs, and ENTPs as ESTPs, then of course you'll think that ENTPs are socially handicapped or something.
    I'm pretty sure "my" ENTp is not INTp. About Einstein I can't be sure In his case I rely on the most commonly stated type for him. Anyways I disagree that I type all INTps as ENTps and ENTps as ESTps and that is why I'm supposedly in error

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    I am bumping this because Gilly and I are discussing Fi PoLR. How does Fi PoLR manifest in social situations where you don't know people. Say you are invited to a party where you don't know anyone?
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    I am bumping this because Gilly and I are discussing Fi PoLR. How does Fi PoLR manifest in social situations where you don't know people. Say you are invited to a party where you don't know anyone?
    Not particularly problematic. If I spot anybody that interests me for some reason or another, I usually have a varied range of interest and I can start conversation easily. What is problematic is when I get past after the first stage of conversation, when it is my first turn to speak, when I should-should not interrupt the other, so on. Also, problematic when say, I met on the road somebody I have interacted with only a little, I never know if I should say hello to them or not...

    XoX: I don't think argumentation should only support a goal. Argumentation is sometimes necessary even without any goal
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    Thank you Fabie. Now let's say your new girlfriend has a party and you meet her friends for the first time (so it's not like you never have to see them again). Would that be different? Would it be a more stressful situation?
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    Thank you Fabie. Now let's say your new girlfriend has a party and you meet her friends for the first time (so it's not like you never have to see them again). Would that be different? Would it be a more stressful situation?
    Yes, definitely different. I would feel the expectation even if there are actually none. I'd act more composed and formal, I think, trying to steer clear from topics that could cause conflicts; until, at least, I have "tested the waters" and seen if I can allow familiarty to happen, or not.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    That is key, I think: weak Fi types (all ExTx) tend to "wait for familiarity," or for others to establish it, rather than taking an active role in its development. They will be polite, make conversation, etc, but they never make that extra "push" to really connect with someone.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
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    Under cerulean skies...

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    Default Fi PoLR

    Is being paranoid that people are working against you (or that a group has some secret agenda against you, etc.) a Fi PoLR trait?
    SEE

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    Or some sort of intuitive polr...


    I get paranoid like that, but more in matters of social hierarchy. I feel as though people more inclined to form groups around themselves are working to get me excluded from their groups. Mainly because it's happened a lot. Which is why I get annoyed with a lot of ExFx's. Bitches.


    It may feel awesome when you are in their group though, don't be fooled. You think you're accepted, then you do one thing that goes agaisnt their idea of "cool" and you have a knife protruding from your back-side.
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    .

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    Well, a Fi type would be perceptive of this. A Fi PoLR type may think such is the case when it is not (that's the theory I'm asking about at least).
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    Err, I don't think only Fi PoLR people feel that way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clover
    Or some sort of intuitive polr...


    I get paranoid like that, but more in matters of social hierarchy. I feel as though people more inclined to form groups around themselves are working to get me excluded from their groups. Mainly because it's happened a lot. Which is why I get annoyed with a lot of ExFx's. Bitches.


    It may feel awesome when you are in their group though, don't be fooled. You think you're accepted, then you do one thing that goes agaisnt their idea of "cool" and you have a knife protruding from your back-side.
    I've seen that happen a lot with ESFjs
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    huijklljk
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clover
    Or some sort of intuitive polr...
    yes

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    I would think what you described is greatly indicative of a PoLR and I say this because many ISTjs and ISFjs I know all have that paranoia about people talking behind their backs, making wrong assumptions about them.. etc. I'm not too sure why this is related to though, but it seems to be. Maybe it's because there are so many POSSIBILITIES for the reasons why people say/do things.. in connection with the strong need for that might screw them up if they don't recieve enough validation of others' emotions?


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    Default Re: Fi PoLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Is being paranoid that people are working against you (or that a group has some secret agenda against you, etc.) a Fi PoLR trait?
    Its much easier for conspiracies to exist in the mind than in reality. If people seem to be working against you or refusing cooperation then the most likely explanation is that they have the same individual response to you rather than conspiring. Someone with weak or PoLR can induce resentment due to simple lack of consideration. Often they will just simply step into a room and expect that others will adopt their agenda regardless of what they were up to just a minute ago (i've seen this mainly with ENTP & ENTJ).
    ILE

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    I guess the question is more so about being sensitive to people disliking you... Would a Fi PoLR person be likely to be overly concerned in worrying that people don't like him/her? (and actually make people dislike him/her as a result? )
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    Answer to Joy: ..YES ...and being unable to know the right psychological distance between you and your acquitances
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
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    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
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    So an ExTp might be overly defensive in response to people that they worry dislike them?
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    Perhaps it can go either way.

    My ENTp brother doesn't seem to be concerned about that at all. I never heard him say anything about people liking him or not. An ESFp girl who dated one of his friends - an ESTp - once told me that many people couldn't stand my brother, but he seemed oblivious to it. I really don't know what would be his reaction if someone told him, "you know, a lot of those people can't stand you". He's intellectually very self-confident, even arrogant, so I guess he'd just think that they're idiots.

    A former ESTp work colleague seemed to take for granted that everyone had to love a guy with his personality, he always assumed that everyone liked him more than me. But if it was pointed out to him that some people deeply disliked him, especially due to something specific, he'd go very quiet.

    As for being "overly concerned and therefore make others dislike him" - I could imagine that happening, FWIW.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    So I guess your brother is an ENTp logical subtype
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater
    So I guess your brother is an ENTp logical subtype
    Yes that's what I think.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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