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Thread: Fi PoLR - Misunderstood

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    Good thread idea. Fi polr. Let's see... I think it can manifest itself in the following ways:

    1. Someone dies and the Fi polr individual feels uneasy. What to say, do, how sensitive to be, what the relatives are feeling, what's expected of him emotionally. He requires help here and can only really offer practical assistance. Knows he's out of his league to comfort and simply leaves the situation altogether, feeling useless unless he's with a partner he can count on to fill that gap.

    2. Can't tell how others feel about him. Needs outward signals like hugs, words, smiles. If he doesn't get these, he either waits for more information or goes elsewhere. Just doesn't have confidence of others' feelings towards him. And sometimes isn't sure of his own feelings. Questions himself in this area. Likes it when someone else tells him how they feel because he can then fall in line with that, or not. Gets confused easily about relationships unless things are spelled out.

    3. Values loyalty. Once he has a friend he really trusts, he expects that friendship to last forever (at least from his end). Almost like an all-or-nothing type of thing. He either trusts that person, or he doesn't.

    4. Sometimes says inappropriate things without intending to offend. Doesn't always know what's offensive, SAYS IT LIKE IT IS without shading. This can be very refreshing to some, or put-offish to others. And the fi polr person then gravitates towards those who aren't offended by him and opens up more as time goes on. He then stays away from people who look at him askance. It's just this handicap, almost, of not knowing what exactly is likely to hurt someone's feelings. It's not so much that he doesn't care (although that might be true also) but more that he just doesn't think about it, it doesn't occur to him that someone else might be that sensitive. Of course over time, he learns.
    Does any SLE here really relate to 2) as written, word by word? Seems more 1D Fe to me than any kind of Fe HA. 3) and 4) seem just beta ST as far as this stuff is specific to type. 1) seems specific enough to Fi PoLR alright.

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    Fi lead is judgmental
    Fe lead is phony

    Extreme Fi PoLR is the ultimate opportunist who has no ethical stances
    Extreme Fe PoLR is the ultimate stone face who doesn't understand emotions

    Pick your poison

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    Not really that. Fi is about relating to people in everyday life. Stuff like that. I can not do it. My mind likes to say: forget your troubles, lay it down one by one and think about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I donít care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Does any SLE here really relate to 2) as written, word by word? Seems more 1D Fe to me than any kind of Fe HA. 3) and 4) seem just beta ST as far as this stuff is specific to type. 1) seems specific enough to Fi PoLR alright.
    I'm not sure of my type yet, and I'm having difficulty understanding what Fi PoLR really is, so can anyone tell me if it applies here?

    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    1. Someone dies and the Fi polr individual feels uneasy. What to say, do, how sensitive to be, what the relatives are feeling, what's expected of him emotionally. He requires help here and can only really offer practical assistance. Knows he's out of his league to comfort and simply leaves the situation altogether, feeling useless unless he's with a partner he can count on to fill that gap.
    I relate to this a lot. When I was a child and the news was broken to me that my grandmother died, I didn't really know how to react other than thinking to myself, "Well, that happens sometimes," so I just said, "Really?" and tried to sound sad. It wasn't that I didn't care, I just didn't have a reaction. Then my grandfather died about two years ago and basically the same thing happened. I just tried to help out and participate in the formalities but didn't say much at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    2. Can't tell how others feel about him. Needs outward signals like hugs, words, smiles. If he doesn't get these, he either waits for more information or goes elsewhere. Just doesn't have confidence of others' feelings towards him. And sometimes isn't sure of his own feelings. Questions himself in this area. Likes it when someone else tells him how they feel because he can then fall in line with that, or not. Gets confused easily about relationships unless things are spelled out.
    I figure people like me well enough if they're voluntarily spending time with me, but if anyone has any strong feelings about me, I'm unaware of it unless they make it apparent like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    3. Values loyalty. Once he has a friend he really trusts, he expects that friendship to last forever (at least from his end). Almost like an all-or-nothing type of thing. He either trusts that person, or he doesn't.
    Yes but there are very few people who have gotten to that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    4. Sometimes says inappropriate things without intending to offend. Doesn't always know what's offensive, SAYS IT LIKE IT IS without shading. This can be very refreshing to some, or put-offish to others. And the fi polr person then gravitates towards those who aren't offended by him and opens up more as time goes on. He then stays away from people who look at him askance. It's just this handicap, almost, of not knowing what exactly is likely to hurt someone's feelings. It's not so much that he doesn't care (although that might be true also) but more that he just doesn't think about it, it doesn't occur to him that someone else might be that sensitive. Of course over time, he learns.
    As a kid, I'd joke at a friend's expense because I thought I was just being funny and nothing more and often ended up getting in trouble for it. Or laughing when a friend said some kind of personal opinion that didn't make sense to me and I thought they were joking. Followed by, "What are you laughing at?" But I don't have that problem so much anymore. If it's a formal setting I can just avoid that territory completely. When I'm talking to my friends I don't really think about if something could offend them but I don't think I've ever done so. If I have, they haven't said anything to me. So I'm not sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liriope View Post
    I relate to this a lot. When I was a child and the news was broken to me that my grandmother died, I didn't really know how to react other than thinking to myself, "Well, that happens sometimes," so I just said, "Really?" and tried to sound sad. It wasn't that I didn't care, I just didn't have a reaction. Then my grandfather died about two years ago and basically the same thing happened. I just tried to help out and participate in the formalities but didn't say much at all.
    That does sound Fi PoLR-ish afaik


    As a kid, I'd joke at a friend's expense because I thought I was just being funny and nothing more and often ended up getting in trouble for it. Or laughing when a friend said some kind of personal opinion that didn't make sense to me and I thought they were joking. Followed by, "What are you laughing at?" But I don't have that problem so much anymore. If it's a formal setting I can just avoid that territory completely. When I'm talking to my friends I don't really think about if something could offend them but I don't think I've ever done so. If I have, they haven't said anything to me. So I'm not sure.
    Doesn't every kid joke like that... I did too then stopped later when I noticed it was not that "appropriate" or that it would bother someone. (I actually went over to the other extreme: never doing it by default. There has to be some very explicit mood for it with people for me to even do much joking of any kind.) But really, a lot of people do it even as adults too, no? I guess Fi PoLRs are just approaching the behaviour in a different way cognitively... like not paying as much attention to some reactions etc?


    OK so assuming you are SLE, do you relate to this as is: "Needs outward signals like hugs, words, smiles. If he doesn't get these, he either waits for more information or goes elsewhere" and "Likes it when someone else tells him how they feel because he can then fall in line with that, or not. Gets confused easily about relationships unless things are spelled out."?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Doesn't every kid joke like that...
    I was wondering that too. I guess the part that stands out to me is that I didn't feel guilty when it happened, just more confused and internally blaming the other kid for taking it the wrong way or being weak or something. I don't know what that means in terms of cognition though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    OK so assuming you are SLE, do you relate to this as is: "Needs outward signals like hugs, words, smiles. If he doesn't get these, he either waits for more information or goes elsewhere" and "Likes it when someone else tells him how they feel because he can then fall in line with that, or not. Gets confused easily about relationships unless things are spelled out."?
    I guess not? I mean I can appreciate those things but I'm not actively looking for them. As long as the other person seems like they want to be there I'm OK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liriope View Post
    I was wondering that too. I guess the part that stands out to me is that I didn't feel guilty when it happened, just more confused and internally blaming the other kid for taking it the wrong way or being weak or something. I don't know what that means in terms of cognition though.
    I was confused too. *Vaguely* feeling like it was wrong would come either right away or with a delay. I don't think I ever blamed anyone for taking it wrong, hm but I'm not Fi PoLR.


    I guess not? I mean I can appreciate those things but I'm not actively looking for them. As long as the other person seems like they want to be there I'm OK.
    Yeah that part seemed more strongly seeking Fe than what I've ever seen Fe HA as, lol. Not that I personally experience Fe seeking like this either with feeling the need for all this directly, it's too unconscious for that, but it looks like that to some people, apparently. I definitely relate to waiting for more Fe information and to the part about deciding if I will fall in line with information on how the other person feels towards me or not. All that to me does seem more passive than what SLEs do with Fe but @niffer could chime in here. Also the same about being unclear about relationships unless Fe things are "spelled out", I mean I relate to this.

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    @Liriope

    Fi is deducing ethics. Fe is inducing ethics.

    A person with Fi PoLR has very poor ability in being able to predict how other people will view their actions or decisions ethically.

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    That would be suggestive. PoLR is the "oops I stirred the shit again but it does not matter as long as logic holds but someone could make it look better". That is people's relation to stuff...


    Let me illustrate an example of Ti vs Fi conflict:

    Ti says that action is what they do is utter shit and it goes against several rules.
    Fi says: but they have family to feed.
    Ti says: they should have thought about it earlier breaking the rules to feed themselves is still a violation and they should have never procreated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I donít care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

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    @Liriope you strike me as LSI>SLE

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    I’m mostly terrified of becoming close to other people. But I want it really at the same time. Clear enough for you guys?

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    I’m mostly terrified of becoming close to other people. But I want it really at the same time. Clear enough for you guys?
    Yeah clear lol thanks

    I think I would use a less strong word than "terrified" so that would be a difference for sure. IDK what @Liriope thinks there?

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    I think I tend to have issues with consequences and feelings when it comes to decision making. On some level it is bit like question of right of something while having existence. I mean that we tend to function chaotically. Why can we allow it to happen? It generates good and bad things while we can not have certainty about utilization. Lots of things seem to have two edged sword thing going on. Predetermination is the responsible thing to do while it is an impossibility. It kind of makes me question right for human existence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I donít care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    I’m mostly terrified of becoming close to other people. But I want it really at the same time. Clear enough for you guys?
    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Yeah clear lol thanks

    I think I would use a less strong word than "terrified" so that would be a difference for sure. IDK what @Liriope thinks there?
    I do have that problem but I thought it was an enneagram sx-last thing. Like I have a bad habit of abandoning potential friends when I start to feel like they have some kind of personal expectations of me or something instead of just wanting to hang out, despite still wanting to have closer friends, but it just freaks me out. If that makes sense. I don't like that I do that though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    I think I tend to have issues with consequences and feelings when it comes to decision making. On some level it is bit like question of right of something while having existence. I mean that we tend to function chaotically. Why can we allow it to happen? It generates good and bad things while we can not have certainty about utilization. Lots of things seem to have two edged sword thing going on. Predetermination is the responsible thing to do while it is an impossibility. It kind of makes me question right for human existence.
    3deep5me

    Edit; it took me a minute or two to think about this but I’m in agreement with you. I’ve thought about these things before but I don’t do so actively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liriope View Post
    I do have that problem but I thought it was an enneagram sx-last thing. Like I have a bad habit of abandoning potential friends when I start to feel like they have some kind of personal expectations of me or something instead of just wanting to hang out. If that makes sense. I don't like that I do that though.
    I don’t abandon people for this reason hm. It’s not like this for me. Can you relate to what I said point blank (since Myst said she only could in a more diluted version and she’s LSI)? If not, I’d question Fi polr for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    I don’t abandon people for this reason hm. It’s not like this for me. Can you relate to what I said point blank (since Myst said she only could in a more diluted version and she’s LSI)? If not, I’d question Fi polr for you.
    I added some clarification to my post while you were replying to me, but I think terrified is maybe a good word? I think the abandoning behavior might just be immaturity (early 20s) and I'm not even totally aware of why I do it. It's just like the idea of having to put work into maintaining the relationship? Or maybe trust issues? I don't know, this is getting a little deep

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liriope View Post
    I added some clarification to my post while you were replying to me, but I think terrified is maybe a good word? I think the abandoning behavior might just be immaturity (early 20s) and I'm not even totally aware of why I do it. It's just like the idea of having to put work into maintaining the relationship? Or maybe trust issues? I don't know, this is getting a little deep
    Can you relate, to the point of feeling slightly defensive to the Fe HA “to be loved” thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    @Liriope you strike me as LSI>SLE
    I take this back btw @Liriope since I only skimmed your posts before this. I do think SLE is totally possible for you now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    Can you relate, to the point of feeling slightly defensive to the Fe HA ďto be lovedĒ thing?
    Are you talking about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    2. Can't tell how others feel about him. Needs outward signals like hugs, words, smiles. If he doesn't get these, he either waits for more information or goes elsewhere. Just doesn't have confidence of others' feelings towards him. And sometimes isn't sure of his own feelings. Questions himself in this area. Likes it when someone else tells him how they feel because he can then fall in line with that, or not. Gets confused easily about relationships unless things are spelled out.
    Or do you just mean the idea of needing to be loved in general? I'm not sure how I feel about it. What would be equivalent examples of both Ni or Fe comments that could trigger defensiveness?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liriope View Post
    Are you talking about this?
    I am talking about this, rather well known source: http://www.socionics.com/articles/hiddena.htm .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    That would be suggestive.
    Both are 1D so both manifest the same. Socionics 101.

    Let me illustrate an example of Ti vs Fi conflict:

    Ti says that action is what they do is utter shit and it goes against several rules.
    Fi says: but they have family to feed.
    Ti says: they should have thought about it earlier breaking the rules to feed themselves is still a violation and they should have never procreated.
    -L and -E can't argue. -L wants to make decisions based on logic and -E wants to make decisions based on ethic. They are completely separate realms.
    Only opposite method functions can argue, -L and +L or -I and +I, etc.

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    You constantly question stuff and your own feelings towards things even in your posts. An LSI by contrast would desire and display more clarity and eschew vagueness. SLE looking very likely to me for you at this point.

    @Liriope

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    I am talking about this, rather well known source: http://www.socionics.com/articles/hiddena.htm .
    Okay yeah, that was one of the pages that made me confused about my type (among some other sources of info that would prob derail the thread), because while thinking I was LSI, I don't even know what "to believe" is supposed to mean. But I don't particularly feel defensive about anything on that list? When I first looked at it I thought "to be loved" could explain some of my behaviors but it's a bit vague here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    Both are 1D so both manifest the same. Socionics 101.
    He’s talking about Fe as suggestive, you dingus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liriope View Post
    Okay yeah, that was one of the pages that made me confused about my type (among some other sources of info that would prob derail the thread), because while thinking I was LSI, I don't even know what "to believe" is supposed to mean. But I don't particularly feel defensive about anything on that list? When I first looked at it I thought "to be loved" could explain some of my behaviors but it's a bit vague here.
    @Rebelondeck here’s another review on your page btw

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    @niffer I get a little mixed up when the JCF-MBTI people have a bit of a different focus on what Fi means than the Socionics people, but would this be explained by Fi PoLR as well? The thing I absolutely hated the most about public school, without a doubt, is when they made the class discuss or write about personal things, like "Who is your role model and why?", "What are the qualities you love about your friends?", "What is a song whose lyrics connect with you personally?" Those things made me want to get up and walk out. It was like it broke my brain.

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    @Liriope Why do you dislike those topics?

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    If it’s difficult for you to self-analyze and discuss why you like or dislike things, then yes that’s definitely 1D Fi and Ni of SLE, and I could relate to it a lot before I got more used to doing it with others, by using socionics and other things mostly actually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liriope View Post
    Okay yeah, that was one of the pages that made me confused about my type (among some other sources of info that would prob derail the thread), because while thinking I was LSI, I don't even know what "to believe" is supposed to mean. But I don't particularly feel defensive about anything on that list? When I first looked at it I thought "to be loved" could explain some of my behaviors but it's a bit vague here.
    I think a better way to think about it is to realize its essentially "what is the ultimate endstate and therefore purpose of these functions" and you can almost entirely divorce them from the type itself and just realize its an expression of a valued 2d function i.e.: values a thing in its normative manifestation therefore without any non-linear nuance, therefore to its "utmost extent" which is nevertheless somehow itself naive in its conception:

    (in a 2d extrapolated form)
    Fe: to be universally admired
    Si: be the ultimate specimen
    Ne: to always be truly right
    Ti: to have absolute clarity
    Se: to always be comparatively more powerful
    Ni: to have found the truest cause
    Te: to be able to devise the best course of action
    Fi: to genuinely value another person beyond oneself completely and utterly

    if there's a problem here its that all of these are good things that everyone should more or less aspire to since they recognize norms the human cognitive framework was adapted to be able to ascertain and move toward, i.e.: slices of reality across which positive movement is possible and selected-for, thus like the "omnis" of the attributes of God they all start to bleed into one another: perfect beauty is perfect truth etc, its all just the vector one prefers to come by it, but they're all really takes on exactly the same thing, which is some form of perfection we dimly aim at and yet place a high degree of important of feedback on, a kind of semi conscious measuring stick we hold ourselves to. its our self esteem but we rarely face up to it head on as the yardstick by which we truly measure ourselves. because of precisely that its hard to type oneself according to HA

    in other words, no one can genuinely say they could negate one of them, because they should be arrayed such that if you truly negate one of them you negate all of them. in other words, if you are confused (Ti) it can undo the rest, because how do you know x or y is true. If you are disliked (Fe) perhaps your course of action is wrong. if you are weaker than something (Se) perhaps you don't love enough (Fi).. they are all interrelated and all come to nothing and everything all at the same time, its the emphasis against all reason on one to the exclusion of others at the expense of all that makes their puerile aspect become obvious (perfect can be the enemy of good), when HA sticks out its this weird form of ego preservation that thinks "this is the ticket" without realizing the entire self is being undermined at that moment (you have to lose to win (Se) you have to love oneself first (Fi) (you are already, and can be, and should be, selfish), you can see a lot of messages of duals are precisely these kinds of targeted messages)... its a way they bring exceptions to bear in a way the person has great difficulty providing for themselves, without destabilizing themselves completely, in a way that is fully appreciated on a deep subconscious level by the other half
    Last edited by Bertrand; 06-22-2018 at 11:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    @Liriope Why do you dislike those topics?
    I just don't know how I feel about them and what the actual answer would be. I always wrote something politically correct and probably insincere because it was so much easier to get the grade that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liriope View Post
    I just don't know how I feel about them and what the actual answer would be. I always wrote something politically correct and probably insincere because it was so much easier to get the grade that way.
    Hahahahaha I can relate to this so much

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    So you do still self-type as xLI again @Bertrand

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    He’s talking about Fe as suggestive, you dingus.
    Learn to read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liriope View Post
    I added some clarification to my post while you were replying to me, but I think terrified is maybe a good word? I think the abandoning behavior might just be immaturity (early 20s) and I'm not even totally aware of why I do it. It's just like the idea of having to put work into maintaining the relationship? Or maybe trust issues? I don't know, this is getting a little deep
    Fi PoLR. No way this is Fi role or Fe DS lol

    Explanation: it's complete lack of awareness of why you do relationship related things or internal feelings (Fi) related stuff. I don't have a very good awareness either but this is a stark difference I think Also just the way you are putting things... way more xLE than any kind of LxI lol, I can't explain the impression though beyond how it's to do with how 1) you trying to logic all this out on the fly 2) you put in that Fe emoticon in that way you did


    Quote Originally Posted by Liriope View Post
    I do have that problem but I thought it was an enneagram sx-last thing. Like I have a bad habit of abandoning potential friends when I start to feel like they have some kind of personal expectations of me or something instead of just wanting to hang out, despite still wanting to have closer friends, but it just freaks me out. If that makes sense. I don't like that I do that though.
    Lol you are worried about expectations. Not a Rational type I think, not LSI anyway .
    Last edited by Myst; 06-23-2018 at 07:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liriope View Post
    @niffer I get a little mixed up when the JCF-MBTI people have a bit of a different focus on what Fi means than the Socionics people, but would this be explained by Fi PoLR as well? The thing I absolutely hated the most about public school, without a doubt, is when they made the class discuss or write about personal things, like "Who is your role model and why?", "What are the qualities you love about your friends?", "What is a song whose lyrics connect with you personally?" Those things made me want to get up and walk out. It was like it broke my brain.
    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    If itís difficult for you to self-analyze and discuss why you like or dislike things, then yes thatís definitely 1D Fi and Ni of SLE, and I could relate to it a lot before I got more used to doing it with others, by using socionics and other things mostly actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by Liriope View Post
    I just don't know how I feel about them and what the actual answer would be. I always wrote something politically correct and probably insincere because it was so much easier to get the grade that way.
    ...Yeah these posts really show what Fi PoLR is like I guess. In comparison, back then when I still went to school, I hated brainstorming related tasks... Not that I would've been able to answer who my role model is (never had one and never will). Qualities about my friends, I'd have been able to give incredibly basic answers back then lol. I'd be able to be more elaborate now. With songs stuff I still would not be able to elaborate well but it's okay, it's just a "meh" question lol. The question about friends though is actually interesting to me. I analysed this topic a lot before in terms of what these qualities are, not that I'm able to give that much more elaborate answers now than before I analysed the topic but definitely more exhaustive an answer by now.

    Niffer, yeah difficult for me too to self-analyse and discuss why I like or dislike things but I didn't need Socionics or other people's help to do it I think.

    And the PC insincere stuff lol I never thought of doing it like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    Both are 1D so both manifest the same. Socionics 101.

    -L and -E can't argue. -L wants to make decisions based on logic and -E wants to make decisions based on ethic. They are completely separate realms.
    Only opposite method functions can argue, -L and +L or -I and +I, etc.
    You may want to learn to read too The post you were responding to discussed Fi (R) not Fe (E). Personally I find Ti and Fi incompatible for me in many cases, can't be mixed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I think a better way to think about it is to realize its essentially "what is the ultimate endstate and therefore purpose of these functions"
    This was actually an interesting post in some bits of it but I believe that unfortunately it's not as simple as one IE having just one specific agenda. I like your Ni one though lol. And your Fi one I guess was interesting too.

    PS: not surprised you were unable to respond to my PM asking you a quite difficult question... oh well it's fine I'm gonna just ask in public too. EDIT: Asked in your Visitor messages page.


    in other words, no one can genuinely say they could negate one of them, because they should be arrayed such that if you truly negate one of them you negate all of them. in other words, if you are confused (Ti) it can undo the rest, because how do you know x or y is true. If you are disliked (Fe) perhaps your course of action is wrong. if you are weaker than something (Se) perhaps you don't love enough (Fi).. they are all interrelated (...)
    And that's a problem that model A didn't take into account (though it's missing many other principles too about the interactions of the IEs ofc).

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    @Rebelondeck hereís another review on your page btw
    @Liriope I wouldn't use hidden agenda as any basis for determining type. Hidden refers to lower priority of an agenda, and agendas are contrivances that try to quantify perceptions of information handling processes. I wrote the article to show how one could draw the same conclusions from a different perspective than the one Socionics has. On this site, I posted another article on primary agendas, which become more obscure with lower priorities - and perhaps hidden. Socionics has a solid basis but some interpretations of the observations are somewhat superficial and naive. The best way to determine type is to become informed and remain objective - uninfluenced by other amateurs like me and with no personal biases; one needs the view from the top of the hill. I think of type as a tool and not as a scripture that will govern my life......

    a.k.a. I/O

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