Fi confidence ?

[Megan]

I can't understand what the fuss is about. is internal feeling is related to relationships between people and therefore can be associated with the moral code of behavoiur and conscience. is not about conscience or moral code as such but both functions are related to each other because the "internal" knowledge about behaviour should be able to bring a positive emotional atmoshere and expression inside and out, otherwise is a burden which we want to escape.

[Kim]

I think Fi has more to do with personally relevant morality if any morality at all, and in some cases using Fi means siding against the moral majority for a cause that may not even be seen as moral. Strong self expressions.

Yes, exactly! But I think Fi does not work alone like that.

Ann, sorry, my post was not a direct response to what you said, so I shouldn't have quoted you. I was really tired.

I have spent a lot of time with my sister (ISFj) and a good ISFj friend over the past four weeks. My sister seems set in her perception of what kind of behavior is appropriate between people, what is acceptable and so on. But she does not have the weak Ne one would expect (and I think part of that has to do with us being close and me constantly using Ne. In addition, she is generally a very open-minded and accepting person). My friend, on the other hand, is very rigid in her perception of what she considers right or wrong. I don't think it's the Fi alone, but how well the Ne is developed.

This is how I react to something that I perceive as non-appropriate behavior (as an example):
Someone jokes about molesting a child in the chat.
I ask to stop it because the following possibilities come to mind:
a) Someone in the chat might have been molested and could be triggered.
b) The person who is joking could actually be take seriously, wich can lead to all sorts of problems for him/her
c) A chat can be closed down for this sort of thing.
d) xyz.

(let's not talk about the likelihood of these possibilities. This is just an example).

My reaction then is based on an evaluation of the specific situation and a desire to protect people who could potentially get hurt, not on the idea of "this is immoral!" I have been getting accused of shoving preconceived moral convictions down people's throat, but my objections are really very much situation-based (with some exceptions). The ISFjs and INFjs I know are less wiling (as Diana also indicated, I think) to reconsider their ideas of what is appropriate.

Interestingly enough, when my NeFi triggers my desire to protect, my Se kicks into gear and often goes into overdrive (I become a real bitch). I don't know if it's my temper or some sort of weird function interaction. :wink: I bitch, chill and then sort it out with the person (if s/he is willing).

[anndelise]

Ann, sorry, my post was not a direct response to what you said, so I shouldn't have quoted you. I was really tired.

I have spent a lot of time with my sister (ISFj) and a good ISFj friend over the past four weeks. My sister seems set in her perception of what kind of behavior is appropriate between people, what is acceptable and so on. But she does not have the weak Ne one would expect (and I think part of that has to do with us being close and me constantly using Ne. In addition, she is generally a very open-minded and accepting person). My friend, on the other hand, is very rigid in her perception of what she considers right or wrong. I don't think it's the Fi alone, but how well the Ne is developed.

This is how I react to something that I perceive as non-appropriate behavior (as an example):
Someone jokes about molesting a child in the chat.
I ask to stop it because the following possibilities come to mind:
a) Someone in the chat might have been molested and could be triggered.
b) The person who is joking could actually be take seriously, wich can lead to all sorts of problems for him/her
c) A chat can be closed down for this sort of thing.
d) xyz.

(let's not talk about the likelihood of these possibilities. This is just an example).

My reaction then is based on an evaluation of the specific situation and a desire to protect people who could potentially get hurt, not on the idea of "this is immoral!" I have been getting accused of shoving preconceived moral convictions down people's throat, but my objections are really very much situation-based (with some exceptions). The ISFjs and INFjs I know are less wiling (as Diana also indicated, I think) to reconsider their ideas of what is appropriate.

Interestingly enough, when my NeFi triggers my desire to protect, my Se kicks into gear and often goes into overdrive (I become a real bitch). I don't know if it's my temper or some sort of weird function interaction. :wink: I bitch, chill and then sort it out with the person (if s/he is willing).

Actually, Diana's mentioned being on the "nonconfidence" side.

Thank you for talking about the trigger thing and what runs through your head. For myself, I"ve noticed somethng similar, though you might not agree with it.

I may think similar thoughts in say..the chat situation, but I don't generally do anything about them. Unless I get emotional (which means that it struck a value I personally identify with. Even then, I don't normally say anything, unless it gets pushed over and over and over again. At that point, I feel myself...switch...into role mode (the Se), and only then can I assert my self/value. Which is part of what caused the wonderings of the differences between Ne with Fi vs Se with Fi.

[Megan]

That was very interesting, Kim. I assume you are ENFP. then your + work wonderfully toghether -animal power!
I am not allowed to be bitchy: always looking for rationalisations. I would not start thinking about all those possibilities but would get straigt to the point and explore why the person is saying what he is saying (his way of reasoning and would challenge him. Our Fi works different isn't it?

May be it is what Ann wanted to hear?

[Slacker]

Kim - I do the same thing. I was with a group of friends, and they were joking about how they lost their virginty. One friend looked very uncomfortable, and the friends kept teasing her asking her about it. I took the conversation ringleader aside and suggested that a good number of women's first sexual experience is non-consensual, and maybe they should lay off this woman and even change the subject. That hadn't occured to my friend.

[anndelise]

That was very interesting, Kim. I assume you are ENFP. then your + work wonderfully toghether -animal power!
I am not allowed to be bitchy: always looking for rationalisations. I would not start thinking about all those possibilities but would get straigt to the point and explore why the person is saying what he is saying (his way of reasoning and would challenge him. Our Fi works different isn't it?

May be it is what Ann wanted to hear?

Olga, what about when someone disagrees with your own values? What is your response then?

[Olga]

Well, do not assume that I am so self absorbed that I do not notice or do not care about others' perspectives. As you noticed I am very willing to explore other's perspectives as long as i can understand what they talling about.

I do not like to push my point through I like pleople to come to my point by themselves. And if I see that person is not able to understand - i shut up, what the point? If the person staes the reason and I see them as truthfull I am change my opinion and agree. I like things to be fair. if you are right - I say you are right as long as i able to understand you. If I do not understand you I eather agree -because I do not understand anyway or do not feel strong (poor , -submission ) or I say I do not know. But if I feel that I am right I will continue to defend my point and will choose the words I see as appropriate but not what others may see as appropriate or not appropriate. At the end of the day if I am wrong - i am doing right by pushing people to make me understand what the Right is.

I disagree that is personal self- expression. is more likely to be personal self expression or do you suggest that The dominanat is all pretend? Fi is about others and other orientated but as dominant suppoerted by Se it will be of course different as any ohter dominanat function depending what is the support and the location in the psychic structure.

[Olga]

When people disagree - I very peacefully and quietly show that my point of view is different and this is the end of the story. I don't mind them to keep theirs or to break my neck to convince those who do not wish to be convinced - silly.

[Rocky]

FiSe--Fi opinion or judgment is more likely to rely on collective established ideals or the opinion of the "majority",outside "forces", tradition, etc when evaluating Fi situation.
"it is this way, because society says it is this way, and it always has been"

FiNe--Fi opinion or judgment is more likely to rely on different, individual perspective or viewpoints when evaluating Fi situation.
"society may say it is this way, but if u look at it this way..."

FiSe may arrive at moral opinion faster, while FiNe will plod through and sort it out first before arriving at moral opinion. Ne can be pretty confident, but only after exploring the "known" or "available" options. If presented with a "better"(but it has to be better) option, Ne will change its opinion.

These don't sound like / differences...

certainly do not look at things in the way the majority does, or deals with exterior influences. is much more affected by the outside than .

Also, the last paragraph has nothing to do with functional differences, but everything to do with Extraverted/Introverted differences. It's a basic quality of Introversion to be constantly changing the inner world (and Extraverts constantly change their outer world, obviously). Both and wait a very very long time to come to a conclusion about something (whereas I see the Extraverted types as more likely to jump to conclusions).

And everyone will of course change their opinion if presented with a better option.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Olga]

I can agree with Rocky, I can not agree with Se description.

Sometimes i have a feeling that people take very blant knowledge about the type and put it not in the right context as if they turn and twist the truth around. For example they say truth about you but put it the way which does not sound right. And then you think, generaly it may be true but not always and I would not say it is definetly a rule. I feel it whne I read about ISFJ. If I read about ISTJ I have less doubts I rather think:
What a great insight, except the fact that one ISTJ that I know seems very confident to put her point of view.


Sometime ego Hugo (where has he gone?) sent to me and probably to everybody lots of descriptions to check it out. I was not interested because it was never completely right. It may be what drives Rocky to reconsider all these functions to rich a better understanding of how they work for diffrent types?

I think this description try to make a picture of the type - momentum and then to apply it to every situation. The personality development is not refelcted. While I do like to solve things quickly - it does not apply to every situaltion. In some cases i just let it go because the proccess needs time. I can let it go in some cases but not in the other. This is just one of the examples. I could carry on with this description.
I do not coop badly with ambigious situation. If I would coop badly I would go neurotic. I have got for Christ sake to deal with such situations and directs it to find the best way possible. Gamma quadra is able to bring change and suppose to know how to deal with ambigiouty otherwise change would not be possible.

[Rocky]

@Olga: THANK YOU.


@Diana: :/ those are some pretty wierd people you are talking about. I don't know how many you know, or if I really know any people like that, but they sound like they could have some sort of brain malfunction or something.

[Megan]

@ fever It happens very often that we do misunderstand each other, I think it is qite normal when you talk on the forum.

I just want to give you example how me and my husband take decisions.
My Husband INTJ, he needs time to think sometimes and sometimes he comes quicker to the decision. However, he knows that I like to search and to explore, he hardly complains- he waits when I am ready. He says, you take the decision - to me. But I am very clumsy and imperfect when I do my search -archaical methods . He helps with original ideas and simplifies my work to a huge degree. I am ISFj: it works well.

[Rocky]

FiSe and FiNe will have different means (or use different tools) to come to a conclusion or opinion...

Yeah, and this is where I disagree... everyone puts faith in their dominant function to come to the final decision. The second function is mearly for show. ISFJ and INFJ share the same dominant function.

[anndelise]

FiSe and FiNe will have different means (or use different tools) to come to a conclusion or opinion...

Yeah, and this is where I disagree... everyone puts faith in their dominant function to come to the final decision. The second function is mearly for show. ISFJ and INFJ share the same dominant function.

Wouldn't the second function be what they DO with those final decisions?

[Olga]

May be it owuld be a good idea to consider how INFJ and ISFJ or INFJ and INFP are different regarding many different other dichotomies (Reinin dichotomies). I said INFP because Dreamer was looking into it recently trying to understand her type.

[Creepy-Diana]

.