Deep in a web of thought

[Creepy-]

I was wondering what funciton this represents.

Sometimes when I am laying still or sitting still, and I let my mind wander, it just goes. It has happened more recently, it seems. I wonder if it is an intuition or a thinking thing, and in which way.

Is it
( or perhaps , ? )


It seems as though it is all internal. Not necessarily influnced by imagination, but things subconsciosuly arise, and then analysed, and the products are furthered - maybe that is where imagination or intution comes in.

But I've been into a few of those states over the last few days - or at least I've become "aware" of them in some way - and it is interesting. I was wondering how to look at it through socionics.


There is an intutional sense of "not focusing on anything", and it is all mental. It is not necessarily in "images", as I've heard INTps think. It is just thought, ideas.

Especially when I first wake up, laying in bed, sometimes I recognize this happening then. Certain times it can be like before falling asleep, a dream, but perhaps it has to do with awakening and falling asleep, different modes of consciousness. But the most important thing in this paragraph is that I said it happens often when I first wake up. (everything else was very supplementary and not essential)

Given that Ihave the luxory to lay in bed for a time, minutes can roll by quickly in sheer thought.

Sometimes I wonder about it being a lazyness, but it isn't like I'm not doing anything, either.


And yes, there is a difference between this and sitting calmly and peacefully without thought. What I am describing is an active state of thougt.

With references to INTj things, I am reminded of "the most detached from the body". I could say that I feel very unaware of my body or what is going on around those times. An absorption into thought completely, or some sort of portal.



I don't know what to say, but I'm just curious of what you think about what I've described here. If it happens again, I'll try to write down more what I felt after it happens.

[vague]

[Creepy-]

Sounds more like

That could be. In a recent test, I scored relatively high with , which surprised me, and was unusual. Perhaps I had a backup of it and it finally released itself last week.



PS: Going by http://the16types.info/functions.php

It kind of feels like a mesh of this:

, and somehow.


:si:
Actually, I wonder about this, because it seems prior to this awareness of getting lost/deep into this web of thought, I had an increase in the positive :si: short range --- plesant feelings, feeling good about things in general.

physical relationships between processes taking place at same time and place - how they affect one’s inner state; physical sensations (sound, smell, etc.), how one feels, health, aesthetics
Positive(short range):
Pleasant sensations, comfort, convenience, harmony, beauty, appeal, rest, health, slackness, good state of health, pleasure, pleasure, sensitivity;

As per ,

Positive(short range):
The future, change of a situation in time, a prediction, a prediction, gradual development, evolution, a scheduled accession, dynamics of changes, a time stream, imagination, consistency, imperceptible changes — step by step, a convergence, convergence;

That second half of the short range seems to fit in. (Perhaps I was having a renewal of my introverted functions, or something. Or perhaps I drifted into a state where certain boundries were lost, especially intuition.

For

potentiality of object - inherent possibilities, purpose, abilities, talents, structure, construction, diagram or internal map of object
Positive(short range):
Prospects, opportunities, positive potential, essence, essence, the principles, new ideas, promotion of hypotheses, the theory, an insight, interest, originality, singularity, unreality, belief;
Negative (long range):
Hopelessness, alternative, negative potential, absence of essence, senselessness, the paradox, overlooked old, serost, the mediocrity, the suppressed opportunities, disbelief, sensation.

All of that generally fit the bill. Potentiality of ideas, inherent possibillities, pupose, abilities, talent, structure, construction, diagram, internal map --- yeah, all of that. And various positive and negative aspects. (speaking of positive/negative in a different light: it was a pleasant exprience, though, or at least not unpleasant. Relatively neutral, but I did not feel "bad", other than I might have been wasting time)


I brought up Ti because

objective, outwardly measurable relationships between objects - laws, regulations, rules, categories, quantifiable properties, logic, analysis, belonging, authorship, hierarchy, subordination, objective judgments
Positive(short range):
Reality, detail, detailed study, carefulness, severity, place in hierarchies, laws, decisions, instructions, a choice of the best variant, logic of the organization,

Much of the thought was "in that way". It was judgement, and anlalysis of what came up. But one thing would lead to another...

That is what I wasn't so sure about -- how I could have easily drifted in that state for so long. Since I wrote it down it hasn't happened, so perhaps it was a passing event, or because I'm 'aware' of it now it won't come up again.

It was/is interesting nevertheless.



PS: I think it was mostly an experience. Going over the functions, that one stands out the most and relates the most to the state I was in. But as I said, perhaps it was really a sort of intuition-meshing, or intuition overload state, because I can see how aspects of Ni fell into place. But I do not think it was more Ni over Ne. It seemed more Ne over Ni.

[Gilly]

HA! Told you so.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Mariano Rajoy]

you have stumbled across meditation. various traditions cultivate what you are describing and seek to maintain it for an indefinite amount of time. jung did some personal research on meditation and called it "active imagination", but socionics falls flat in this instance. the evidence being that the unconscious is so poorly understood and almost completely discarded in the socionics model. i think trying to reconcile socionics with what you have described will prove to be a frutiless task, at once preventing the meditative state and obscuring the scientific agenda of socionics.

[Creepy-]

you have stumbled across meditation. various traditions cultivate what you are describing and seek to maintain it for an indefinite amount of time. jung did some personal research on meditation and called it "active imagination", but socionics falls flat in this instance. the evidence being that the unconscious is so poorly understood and almost completely discarded in the socionics model. i think trying to reconcile socionics with what you have described will prove to be a frutiless task, at once preventing the meditative state and obscuring the scientific agenda of socionics.

(that's what meditation is? I suppose I've been doing that for some time, then, without knowing it).

I can fathom what you mean by trying to put socionics on something like that, and if such is really the case, then that could be the end of the discussion.

Really, I think it's just a transition stage or something from sleep.

That may very well be just what it is.

[Gilly]

"Deep in a web of thought..." Come on people! This kid is completely Ni! And if he has any Te, I'll fuck myself in the asshole.

[anndelise]

"Deep in a web of thought..." Come on people! This kid is completely Ni! And if he has any Te, I'll fuck myself in the asshole.

Ya might wanna get started then.
---


I agree with the meditation/half asleep proposals. (I personally don't find them any different, just that with meditiation, a person is deliberately seeking that state.)

I've spoken with a couple of INFps and ENFps, we all describe the similar "web of thoughts". Some of us see images, others hear words, for at least one, smells and tastes play a roll.

From some of the INTj and INFj writings, I see signs of them utilizing such "webs". Sometimes, I think this is why INTj writings can come off as...incoherent and have that "huh?" factor. I have no problem understanding the INFj's.

The funnest thing to do is to place an Se type into that state and how ...into it...they can get. ("hypnosis" is nothing more than guided meditation) It's like the Se type has finally gotten permission to play with their imaginations. (I mention Se types only because I haven't yet worked with an Si type.)

[Gilly]

Where the fuck do you see Te?

[anndelise]

Where the fuck do you see Te?

Hehe...ok, my mistake. I focused on the Ni/Ne imaginative use thing.
I didnt see his description as using either Ti/Te/Fi/Fe.

[Mariano Rajoy]

(that's what meditation is? I suppose I've been doing that for some time, then, without knowing it).

Really, I think it's just a transition stage or something from sleep.

That may very well be just what it is.

check out mysticsonics signature quote thing.

[Mariano Rajoy]

I agree with the meditation/half asleep proposals. (I personally don't find them any different, just that with meditiation, a person is deliberately seeking that state.)

They're quite different states - if you think meditation is the same as being half asleep, you're not doing meditation. The surge of heightened awareness one gets from meditation is far superior to anything you get from borderline slumber. Normal waking consciousness is like sleep compared to it.

("hypnosis" is nothing more than guided meditation)

Wrong. Dastardly wrong. Meditation takes a great expenditure of effort and time to achieve properly.

is what udp described, "active state of thought", not an untrained peering? i don't disagree with the level of lucidity you are describing, but how would you say dreams/unconscious relate?

[Mariano Rajoy]

i think trying to reconcile socionics with what you have described will prove to be a frutiless task, at once preventing the meditative state and obscuring the scientific agenda of socionics.

I think has much more to do with this kind of awareness (and is very much related to the meditative state and the "subconscious"), rather than some limited "intuition of time" crap.

then it follows that many of the intj's on this forum demonstrate strong .

[Gilly]

They would: it's their second strongest function.

[Mariano Rajoy]

They would: it's their second strongest function.

is it?

[Mariano Rajoy]

then it follows that many of the intj's on this forum demonstrate strong .

It doesn't. I think on the exterior, some of what does and some of what does can seem similar. But it's really quite an artificial parallel.

are you limiting Awareness to ? or proposing that intj's don't understand? and dont get pc.

[Mariano Rajoy]

are you limiting Awareness to ? or proposing that intj's don't understand? and dont get pc.

I assume you're referring to "Awareness" as some kind of proper pronoun because it's a really peculiar word to capitalize mid-sentence like that... in which case, you'll have to explain to me what you mean by this.

meditation leads to Awareness. lets say awareness is that lucid state that makes normal consciousness seem like a dream. how did you reconcile the functions with this?

[Rocky]

I was wondering what funciton this represents.

Sometimes when I am laying still or sitting still, and I let my mind wander, it just goes. It has happened more recently, it seems. I wonder if it is an intuition or a thinking thing, and in which way.

Is it
( or perhaps , ? )


It seems as though it is all internal. Not necessarily influnced by imagination, but things subconsciosuly arise, and then analysed, and the products are furthered - maybe that is where imagination or intution comes in.

But I've been into a few of those states over the last few days - or at least I've become "aware" of them in some way - and it is interesting. I was wondering how to look at it through socionics.


There is an intutional sense of "not focusing on anything", and it is all mental. It is not necessarily in "images", as I've heard INTps think. It is just thought, ideas.

Especially when I first wake up, laying in bed, sometimes I recognize this happening then. Certain times it can be like before falling asleep, a dream, but perhaps it has to do with awakening and falling asleep, different modes of consciousness. But the most important thing in this paragraph is that I said it happens often when I first wake up. (everything else was very supplementary and not essential)

Given that Ihave the luxory to lay in bed for a time, minutes can roll by quickly in sheer thought.

Sometimes I wonder about it being a lazyness, but it isn't like I'm not doing anything, either.


And yes, there is a difference between this and sitting calmly and peacefully without thought. What I am describing is an active state of thougt.

With references to INTj things, I am reminded of "the most detached from the body". I could say that I feel very unaware of my body or what is going on around those times. An absorption into thought completely, or some sort of portal.



I don't know what to say, but I'm just curious of what you think about what I've described here. If it happens again, I'll try to write down more what I felt after it happens.

Let's not get overly excited... this could be the use of any introverted function...

[Rocky]

i think trying to reconcile socionics with what you have described will prove to be a frutiless task, at once preventing the meditative state and obscuring the scientific agenda of socionics.

I think has much more to do with this kind of awareness (and is very much related to the meditative state and the "subconscious"), rather than some limited "intuition of time" crap.

I strongly disagree. "Awareness" happens during states of Introverted Judgment. Ni does have a lot to do with time... getting lost in it...

[Olga]

@Mariano:

How can you say things like this? Did you ever see my model? Have you read what I was writing about different parts of conscious? Or is it because I am not credible with no name in socionics? What are you talking about here?

you have stumbled across meditation. various traditions cultivate what you are describing and seek to maintain it for an indefinite amount of time. jung did some personal research on meditation and called it "active imagination", but socionics falls flat in this instance. the evidence being that the unconscious is so poorly understood and almost completely discarded in the socionics model. i think trying to reconcile socionics with what you have described will prove to be a frutiless task, at once preventing the meditative state and obscuring the scientific agenda of socionics.
_________________
LII

[Scrummy]

I just wanted to address this:

("hypnosis" is nothing more than guided meditation)

Wrong. Dastardly wrong. Meditation takes a great expenditure of effort and time to achieve properly.

In the sense that most people who practice meditation will understand that term, "guided meditation" is an oxymoron. If anything, it is the meditation that guides itself. There is this beautiful philosophy in the East, most famously incarnate in the Zen tradition, that meditation is not a state but a process - consciously attempting to achieve a "meditative state" is counterproductive to the actual process of true meditation. There is no doubt that in the process of practicing meditation one does come to a "plateau of mindfulness" (as Thich Nhat Hanh once called it) but all the while, the process is ongoing, self-renewing, evolving of its own accord, self-fulfilling.

As I've come to understand hypnosis, it is actually quite the opposite of meditation. Whereas meditation is a process, the aim of hypnosis is to get oneself into a receptive state such that the mind is open to suggestion. Brain scans of individuals practicing both meditation and hypnosis indicate that the two states are in fact different on the neurological level. And emotionally as well as physically, the two states feel quite different.

In hypnosis, the ego is still intact. The endless chatter of the mind - thought itself, by virtue of having personal motive, by being driven by personal interest - remains intact. In meditation, the ego dissolves. That is the difference.

What UDP seems to be describing is more at a hypnotic state - "deep in a web of thought" is the giveaway for me. The ego is still present. This actually leads me to believe he is working his in this case.

Meditation, however, where the self with all its contrivances and distillations falls away, little by little, that is ... but I don't think that's what UDP was describing.

I think a lot of the confusion arises because the English word we have chosen to describe an Eastern philosophy - "meditation" - used to mean, simply, deep thought. Meditative thoughts are indeed, quite deep, but in the West, "thought" itself comes with its own sorry connotations of ego and Self that are foreign to true meditation.

[Olga]

I have read it on one of the books of medicine that we have got a few bodies around the core - the soul. A body of thought, a body of emotion, physical body and etc, I do not remember exactly how many. These bodies fluctuate depending of what we are doing and what we are thinking and what we are feeling, similar to the idea of butterly model.

What UDP described for me is introverted state and he actually said about two functions and . Rocky said that it could be any introverted function - this is true - and will depend probably on individual type. For example I do it with + - this is what I am thinking at such moments because i am ISFJ.

What is important that it will be related to Si - why? because for the deep though process you need full relaxation.. as if anything around you does not exist - in this sense it is probably similar to meditation - you are switched of for external world. This is Superid in power, primarily blue colour: thought, peace and quiet. If you are INTJ, you thought will be most of the time pure logical because you interest is there. it does not mean tht you can not think about anything else but if your feelings are disturbed, it will not be as deep as you may think.

The enjoyment will go along with those which are strong in you and which you enjoy, which make you relax and provide some sort of thought relief. The best time is moning that is well known wisdom - mind is fresh and relaxed.

According to model B, which does not state it overly clear but...it can be interpreted as the process of internal producing. It is a creative process when you indulge in the knowldege of collective unconscious through the channel connecting it - your subconscous or individual unconscious. This state of mind opens you to the knowledge that is already within you. You access it, organise it and it becomes self -evident to you. It is not as getting messages from the other world but it is related to Afterlife block as you though refreshes/clears itself as if it goes deep into the river of your subconscous. You ask - and the answer within you, do not need to look any further, connect with yourself, trust the High Spirit within you. If it will bring you to the actions you will regret - then you needed this experience and knowldege for your own good.

Am I talking clear enough?

[Creepy-]

Let's not get overly excited... this could be the use of any introverted function...

That's why I listed and . I think it may have been a combination of those.

(but there was almost no . It was not thinking about people/those kind of relationships at all.)

What Scrummy said seemed to fit, but perhaps in an odd way. In retrospect, I say there was a lot of being used. I brought up because it was based on logic, and there was a refreshing neutrality concerning the issues. It was very calm, though perhaps on an automatic cruise control of sorts. As for making distinctions about meditation and hypnosis, I am not sure.

I really don't know how much control I had. I was thinking and 'deciding' about things, or analyzing things, yes. But I don't know how to consider certain things. For instance, I thought about some things that I was interested in, like socionics and different things about the theories and applications there of, real life examples, or even things that I could possibly write here. But there also seems to have been other things that I would think about, and just analyze. Sometimes I would feel "well what was the point of thinking about that (subject)? I didn't gain anything from it". But I cannot provide a good example of this situation, as I deemed most things like that discardable, and since it has been a while since it last happened, I don't remember.

Sometimes it reminds me of how hard it was to "shut my mind off" a few years back, but is much more peaceful, and there is no sense of "why can't I fall asleep!".

Perhaps, though, it is a way for my body to tell me that I need to go to sleep, as it is alluring to be drawn into such a state, and such states are very calm, which could induce sleep. I've had some incidents of being very out of touch with my body, and my body actually "causing situations" to get me to do something that I need --- like a thread a while back about me feeling depressed when what I needed to do was eat something, because I had forgotten to eat for several hours that day. I just thought of this now, (this paragraph), but it does make sense in some ways. I have had an unusual sleeping pattern lately, but I am trying to regulate it more so.

According to model B, which does not state it overly clear but...it can be interpreted as the process of internal producing. It is a creative process when you indulge in the knowldege of collective unconscious through the channel connecting it - your subconscous or individual unconscious. This state of mind opens you to the knowledge that is already within you. You access it, organise it and it becomes self -evident to you. It is not as getting messages from the other world but it is related to Afterlife block as you though refreshes/clears itself as if it goes deep into the river of your subconscous. You ask - and the answer within you, do not need to look any further, connect with yourself, trust the High Spirit within you. If it will bring you to the actions you will regret - then you needed this experience and knowldege for your own good.

Am I talking clear enough?

That sounds reasonably relative, and I can understand what you mean based on my experience.

[Rocky]

Actually, I have been wondering about the ITJ thought process. I remember Pedro attributing the word "thought" to Si. Niednagel (an ISTJ) also says that ISTPs appear "ever-thinking". In that sense, what the hell is ITJ? I assumed it was something, but not sure of what it exaclty is...

[Olga]

I would be interested to understand if this is mainly related to introverts and introverted thinking? How about extraverts? What about those who experience problems with sleep - surely they miss on the "web-thought - process" we are refering to otherwise they would be able to fall asleep easily.

How far can you register/ be consciously aware of your experience?

I have expereinced a couple of times actual experience of "falling" into sleep. Why is it we "fall" and where exactly we fall into? Could it be the collective unconscious? Expereinces of dreams are in a wide range: you can be observer and an actor, role changing. You can talk to the Dead and expereince being "out of body" - the lightness of yourself and ability to fly, to be a "spiderman" - freedom of a different kind. You can feel very sharply all your body sensations while your conscious is dreaming.

Because dreams are mainly in vivid/absurd pictures and symbolic langauge - I would suggest - this is a living part of collective and individual unconscious within us. You can get coded messages from it which have meaning. I wonder what types are more tuned into ability to see dreams and get messages like that?

[Mariano Rajoy]

According to model B, which does not state it overly clear but...it can be interpreted as the process of internal producing. It is a creative process when you indulge in the knowldege of collective unconscious through the channel connecting it - your subconscous or individual unconscious. This state of mind opens you to the knowledge that is already within you. You access it, organise it and it becomes self -evident to you. It is not as getting messages from the other world but it is related to Afterlife block as you though refreshes/clears itself as if it goes deep into the river of your subconscous. You ask - and the answer within you, do not need to look any further, connect with yourself, trust the High Spirit within you. If it will bring you to the actions you will regret - then you needed this experience and knowldege for your own good. Am I talking clear enough?

you are talking clear enough, but there are many things that are contradictory not only in model B, but also in socionics as soon as we try to bring in the unconscious. and we don't even want to get started on Jung, he contrdicts himself repeatedly. there are so many things misaligned, i don't know where to start. i just think that Jungian thought falls short of truth.

[Creepy-pokeball]

When this happens, sometimes I get the urge to write some of my thoughts down. Later, I'll look at it and wonder, "what was I thinking? This is pretty foolish" I think it's like I'm still coming from the dream-world where the most inane stuff makes perfect sense, and my brain is just wandering all over the place. I'll feel like my thoughts are really deep, and I'm seeing stuff in a new way, things I know but are just now coming to my conscious mind. Really, I think it's just a transition stage or something from sleep. I don't have that happen much anymore because more often than not, "MOM!" is the first thing I hear in the morning. No chance to just laze about. Speaking of which, I'd better go.

I always referred to that as "NF crack." I love doing that.

/passes the crack

[Megan]

you are talking clear enough, but there are many things that are contradictory not only in model B, but also in socionics as soon as we try to bring in the unconscious. and we don't even want to get started on Jung, he contrdicts himself repeatedly. there are so many things misaligned, i don't know where to start. i just think that Jungian thought falls short of truth.

I understand this. As a logical type you may find it difficult to understand or agree but we do not socionic to be purely scientific and proved and set in stone, do we? Or no I have not lost it it yet I just want socionics to reflect on humane nature and the world from which we emerge. And this world is not just logical, scientific and explained. I remember one mathematician said on this forum - if you exclude irrationality from your consideration - you close your mind and will miss on a lot. It is like to see only a half of the person, the world and... socionic! This is the part which put socionic into crisis - they ignored it and we develop. Do you find it difficult to understand what role the blocks play in model B? Or what other difficulties? You need to open your mind first and do it slowly.

[Mariano Rajoy]

you are talking clear enough, but there are many things that are contradictory not only in model B, but also in socionics as soon as we try to bring in the unconscious. and we don't even want to get started on Jung, he contrdicts himself repeatedly. there are so many things misaligned, i don't know where to start. i just think that Jungian thought falls short of truth.

I understand this. As a logical type you may find it difficult to understand or agree but we do not socionic to be purely scientific and proved and set in stone, do we? Or no I have not lost it it yet I just want socionics to reflect on humane nature and the world from which we emerge. And this world is not just logical, scientific and explained. I remember one mathematician said on this forum - if you exclude irrationality from your consideration - you close your mind and will miss on a lot. It is like to see only a half of the person, the world and... socionic! This is the part which put socionic into crisis - they ignored it and we develop. Do you find it difficult to understand what role the blocks play in model B? Or what other difficulties? You need to open your mind first and do it slowly.

what role do the blocks play in model B?

[Mariano Rajoy]

It is a creative process when you indulge in the knowldege of collective unconscious through the channel connecting it - your subconscous or individual unconscious. This state of mind opens you to the knowledge that is already within you. You access it, organise it and it becomes self -evident to you. It is not as getting messages from the other world but it is related to Afterlife block as you though refreshes/clears itself as if it goes deep into the river of your subconscous. You ask - and the answer within you, do not need to look any further, connect with yourself, trust the High Spirit within you. If it will bring you to the actions you will regret - then you needed this experience and knowldege for your own good.

Not sure entirely what you're referring to, but this is the best description of I've seen on here.

if you don't know what she is referring to, then how could you know if it is a fitting description of ?

not that i am intentionally being antagonistic, but there are some things that you have resolved in your mind, and i would like to hear how you have resolved them.

[Olga]

It looks like this half sleepy state of conscious is very significant for the thought process and that is why some people meditate - switch of from the Life and go deep into your self. The process starts with the body relaxation - feeling your body . You imagine that you are "frosen" or as if you do not have the body anymore. This state of body relaxes your mind. The flow of thougt starts in your head, you follow, it is as if the thought directs you and not you direct your thought. Sometimes you loose consciousness of what you think or images appearing in your mind and sometimes it gets back to you and then you think: what was it about?

This process is related the best to Superid block which is associated with blue and dark blue colours and functions and to individual unconscious/subconscious and collective unconscious. We come into this life from Superid block and we go back through the same block - preparation for a sleepy existance, existance of the level of thought only -Afterlife. If you find the book of indian religion with chakras you will see how the colours arranged in the body: purple - above the head, dark blue and blue - head and the rainbow colours go down and end up with red.
Superego functions and also involved in the thought process because they are introverted too.

You can exercise this process and then it will become more conscious to you. It is called "to tune yourself" into the irrational world. Some people live their life and do not ever think about teir favourite colours as if they do not exist or do ot take any attention to dreams. I am not saying we all have to do that but we need recognize it as a natural part of our living existence.
Blocks are very important in the model B. It organises the knowledge and put everything from the head on the feet. It gives the meaning and organises the parts into a meaningful whole. The order of the blocks is related to the process of the personality development, ways of aquiring info, flow of information, psychdynamics such as what kind powers within yourself you are primarily balancing -explains it and ther is a perspective to explain much more. For example associating colours with blocks and functions with blocks gives more insight into your psychodynamics. May be this general info is ok for a start.

[Mariano Rajoy]

where can i find the book of indian religion with chakras?

[Olga]

Probably in any decent bookshop they have it or on the internet?
I have not read any of them, I do have one at home though. I just saw the picture in one of the topic here on the forum, it has been posted by Rainbow and I think the topic was with the same name. It is a good idea, I need to look at it too.