ESI or EII

[1981slater]

Redbaron, you just described a Normalizing EII I know well!

[Beautiful sky]

She's a perfectionist who is very concerned about doing things the "right" way. She's fond of making lists, nay, even spreadsheets, and color-coding things into categories. She's a micro-manager and never seems quite comfortable in her own skin (which I realize isn't type-related). She's had the same hairstyle for 20+ years. Beautiful nails but never paints them. Doesn't show off with her clothes and seems unsure about fashion and style (which tends to make me think not ESI). Loves to garden and has a quite beautiful one. Her car is a mess. Her house is perfect when guests come but behind closed doors, is a big mess. Constantly harps on family members to pick up their stuff. Unhappy marriage to SLE. Doesn't have many friends, keeps herself pretty closed off toward people and comes off as snobbish/cold at first. Has a sort of fake warmth that she uses in public with people she knows. Being at parties totally drains her and she often goes home early. She has good posture and is very careful to maintain a 100% natural diet. Enjoys cooking and baking (I know, not type-related necessarily).

Is this enough info to make a distinction? I have no photos.

Color coding things seems to be a visual need to identify material. This is closer to Se. What is she color coding exactly?

*Note, my boyfriend says I would rather not organize and I certainly don't color code things. LOL

[redbaron]

I know it sounds funny but could she be an unhealthy IEI? I've struggled with perfectionism, over my appearance and habits especially. I went through a phase at around 18 where I thought If I acted like a perfect lady, dressed immaculately and always donning a french manicure... people would like me. It's been a long road but I'm just starting to find myself again. I think someone looking from the outside typing me some years ago would have thought I was ESI.

nope. no chance.

[Aiss]

perfectionism sounds more enneagram related - she might be type 1 which I think is common for Fi or Ti subtypes of ESIs and LSIs

What Krig described is in fact a very good E1 analysis in general, even with type tags removed. Especially interesting since it interweaves the system with socionics in a sensible way, as opposed to dumb correlations made from time to time. Since redbaron agrees with socionics types in it I think this lead is worth following.

[Krig the Viking]

perfectionism sounds more enneagram related - she might be type 1 which I think is common for Fi or Ti subtypes of ESIs and LSIs

What Krig described is in fact a very good E1 analysis in general, even with type tags removed. Especially interesting since it interweaves the system with socionics in a sensible way, as opposed to dumb correlations made from time to time. Since redbaron agrees with socionics types in it I think this lead is worth following.

Yeah, I've had a strong hunch for a long time now that somewhere in the Persona types and/or the intra-type relations lie the psychological dynamics which Enneagram describes. How exactly that works, though, I have not yet been able to figure out.

[xerx]

I'm in the middle of doing a lot of research and thinking on the subject of the Persona and subtypes, at some point I plan to write a big article about it all. It's exciting and interesting stuff, at least in my opinion.

Totally looking forward to this. (sorry if I'm putting pressure on you)

[Krig the Viking]

I'm in the middle of doing a lot of research and thinking on the subject of the Persona and subtypes, at some point I plan to write a big article about it all. It's exciting and interesting stuff, at least in my opinion.

Totally looking forward to this. (sorry if I'm putting pressure on you)

Friendly encouragement never hurt anyone.

There are still a few theoretical details I'm trying to pin down before I start writing it up, though, so it may be a while yet.

[redbaron]

Forgive me for stating the obvious but Krig, you are awesome and we love you.

[Krig the Viking]

[silke]

What Krig described is in fact a very good E1 analysis in general, even with type tags removed. Especially interesting since it interweaves the system with socionics in a sensible way, as opposed to dumb correlations made from time to time. Since redbaron agrees with socionics types in it I think this lead is worth following.

I was reading Krig's description and thinking this too, that it makes for a good description of e1 at unhealthy levels, probably around 3-4. However, I'm a bit weary of using socionics to explain construction of enneagram types just because there are so many other explanations for their development. For type 1 for example the theories range from being born 1st child in family on whom all responsibility is placed, to having to live in a very chaotic environment, to having overly-critical parents, to being subjected to rigid hierarchical schooling environment, to simply having propensity for OCD. Unless there are controls for all these other possible factors I'm not sure a meaningful correlation can be made (in case of this woman she could have possibly received Se-PoLR hits from her parents or it could have been any one or a combination of the above).

[Aiss]

What Krig described is in fact a very good E1 analysis in general, even with type tags removed. Especially interesting since it interweaves the system with socionics in a sensible way, as opposed to dumb correlations made from time to time. Since redbaron agrees with socionics types in it I think this lead is worth following.

I was reading Krig's description and thinking this too, that it makes for a good description of e1 at unhealthy levels, probably around 3-4. However, I'm a bit weary of using socionics to explain construction of enneagram types just because there are so many other explanations for their development. For type 1 for example the theories range from being born 1st child in family on whom all responsibility is placed, to having to live in a very chaotic environment, to having overly-critical parents, to being subjected to rigid hierarchical schooling environment, to simply having propensity for OCD. Unless there are controls for all these other possible factors I'm not sure a meaningful correlation can be made (in case of this woman she could have possibly received Se-PoLR hits from her parents or it could have been any one or a combination of the above).

The existence of worthless theories explaining something doesn't imply every other theory attempting the same will be worthless. The essence of enneagram is deep-rooted motivations, not what circumstances inspire those - they are not only infinitely variable, but can affect different children in different ways. There isn't necessarily going to be a strong correlation with oldest child being a particular type even if it does have an effect, because its influence can be different from case to case. From this point of view, enneagram is absolutely useless and untestable as a scientific theory. On the other hand, so is socionics, and socionics type isn't a factor that can be controlled at all. Therefore any speculation in this area is going to be purely intuitive, not provable. I wish you luck however if you're going to go for scientific approach to this, creating a reliable type indicator and all.

[Krig the Viking]

I was reading Krig's description and thinking this too, that it makes for a good description of e1 at unhealthy levels, probably around 3-4. However, I'm a bit weary of using socionics to explain construction of enneagram types just because there are so many other explanations for their development. For type 1 for example the theories range from being born 1st child in family on whom all responsibility is placed, to having to live in a very chaotic environment, to having overly-critical parents, to being subjected to rigid hierarchical schooling environment, to simply having propensity for OCD. Unless there are controls for all these other possible factors I'm not sure a meaningful correlation can be made (in case of this woman she could have possibly received Se-PoLR hits from her parents or it could have been any one or a combination of the above).

From what I've seen, personas or "masks" develop during childhood as a response to exactly the sorts of factors you describe (birth order, environment, parents, etc.). This is why I can't help but intuitively feel that there is some connection between socionic masks and enneagram types, although I have not yet been able to figure out exactly what that connection is. It's possible my intuitive feeling is wrong, of course, but I think it's a worthwhile avenue of investigation.

[silke]

The existence of worthless theories explaining something doesn't imply every other theory attempting the same will be worthless. The essence of enneagram is deep-rooted motivations, not what circumstances inspire those - they are not only infinitely variable, but can affect different children in different ways. There isn't necessarily going to be a strong correlation with oldest child being a particular type even if it does have an effect, because its influence can be different from case to case. From this point of view, enneagram is absolutely useless and untestable as a scientific theory. On the other hand, so is socionics, and socionics type isn't a factor that can be controlled at all. Therefore any speculation in this area is going to be purely intuitive, not provable. I wish you luck however if you're going to go for scientific approach to this, creating a reliable type indicator and all.

I haven't claimed it is worthless. The polls on types and enneagram, however, show that the correlation between the two is rather marginal.

From what I've seen, personas or "masks" develop during childhood as a response to exactly the sorts of factors you describe (birth order, environment, parents, etc.). This is why I can't help but intuitively feel that there is some connection between socionic masks and enneagram types, although I have not yet been able to figure out exactly what that connection is. It's possible my intuitive feeling is wrong, of course, but I think it's a worthwhile avenue of investigation.

Possibly, and it all sounds very similar to "life positions" from Transactional Analysis as well, but there are just so many factors that cannot be controlled that it would be very difficult to pin down what exactly this relationship between the two is.

[youfloweryourfeast]

“controlling. fearful. worried about the future and HATES changes. (maybe not type related) Very slow to get used to new things. Not very adventurous when it comes to anything. Plays it safe.” This sounds more ESI, reminds me of my ESI friend. EIIs may be anxious about things, but we are not afraid of new things, thus we love change. Since ne is always feeling that what we have in the moment is lacking, it's hard to feel content. My ESI friend is the opposite in this way, she always tells me how she is afraid to move somewhere new, and prefers to do what she already knows is comfortable to her. One of the most obvious differences of ne creative and se creative..It's also confusing though because in some way se creativeis better at dealing with change, and adapting to it. It's just they have this uncertainty about doing it or starting it (ne polr), and I wish they wouldn't put themselves down in this way.

[Mairon]

EIIs in general look always calm. They are like tibetan monks (Yeah, I'm exaggerating it a little).
Btw ESIs have creative Se and they are a lot more rebel/imposing.
EIIs prefer a passive approach to everything. Instead of discussing things he prefer to just go away from your negative energies