Gamma Quadra: exclusivity and sense of elitism

[Gilly]

Do Gammas experience an innate need for some kind of elitism? I see this being tied to Se more than anything, this need for some kind of exclusivity; it's not about feeling "special" or "unique," but more just a kind of need for a higher place in some form or another. I feel like this has something to do with Se's need for hierarchy. Is this Gamma?

[Catholic Schoolboy]

Yes.

[Gilly]

Is it exclusively Gamma, do you think? Or, rather, is it a defining characteristic of Gamma?

[MysticSonic]

It seems like Gammas have a need to exert influence without being destructive(like Betas), and hence do it through snobbery and a very annoying uppityness.

[science as magic]

I have noticed this in some estjs as well which i think is what they mean by their aristocratic behavior. ixtjs can be fairly elitist as well (imo) but in a different manner.

[Gilly]

I ask because I myself experience this need for a kind of elitism or exclusivity, and have been having questions about whether or not I may be a Gamma NT like Implied has repeatedly suggested. In addition, I've been rediscovering my more introverted side recently, and I find that I am significantly more comfortable with it than my extroverted one; apply this to my almost-sure NT-ness and the extent to with I identify with being a perceiver, and Tada - INTp. I can make additions to this case, and will if prompted, but I feel that this is sufficient for now.

[Olga]

If it is eliticism, than it must be internal for Gamma or ...natural? For me it is an internal eliticism but I know that ENTJs and INTPs would not mind to show it in a ...dressing style, for example, in quality of standards. I am on the other hand can be very simple in style.

I still think there must be a difference between eliticism and aristocratism? I do not keep distance with simple people but I do not like aristocrats whi think too much about themselves and overestimate thier qualities - which I do not percieve as primarily important. I do not remember what exactly Reinin suggests - which type are democrats and aristocrats but I would say that Beta is rather aristocrate quadra.

[Gilly]

Well, I see myself as someone who is at the same time both very much fair minded as well as high minded. I keep a high opinion of myself on the back burner, which goes along with the individualism/elitism that I feel is very much a part of my personality. However, on the surface, I fight for things to be "fair" and equal in all ways. It's an interesting paradox that I observe regularly in myself: my ideals and behavior are very much democratic, while my natural inclinations are more aristocratic.

[FDG]

Elistism = Beta and Delta by definition.

Accuse me of everything buy really not elitism, can't stand it

[Gilly]

I'm thinking more of an individualist kind of elitism, not really snobbery.

[UDP]

I don't know if elitism is the right word, but maybe I'm defining it differently than you guys. Elitism to me implies some kind snobbish clickyness - which I think Gammas precisely do not do (I'd see this more characteristic of Alphas maybe). Gammas do think very highly of themselves and can come off cocky as all hell, but they've got a real non-prententious down to Earth way about how they do it.

Yeah, I agree with that.


Oh, and elitism certainly isn't just for Gammas. But for me it isn't just about "snobbish clickyness". (See the "rationality" thread)

I know of the "invidualism" you mentioned, Gilligan.

[Raver]

I have noticed this in some estjs as well which i think is what they mean by their aristocratic behavior. ixtjs can be fairly elitist as well (imo) but in a different manner.

Are you saying that attributing a sense of attitude to a quadra is misleading and false? I agree wholeheartedly if that is the case.

[Raver]

I have noticed this in some estjs as well which i think is what they mean by their aristocratic behavior. ixtjs can be fairly elitist as well (imo) but in a different manner.

Are you saying that attributing a sense of attitude to a quadra is misleading and false? I agree wholeheartedly if that is the case.

I think that dual pairs specifically, although very different, share a similar attitude, due to the mutual rationality/irrationality. From what I've noticed, each dual pair seems to have a specific attitude, even if they're from the same quadra (IE ENFj - ISTj, and ESTp - INFp seem to have slightly different attitudes, despite the fact that both pairs are from the same quadra). Anyone else notice this?

It's true that duals and those individuals would be able to understand and accept eachother's values, however that does NOT mean that they share the exact same values IMO!!!

[Raver]

that is true.

This is why I somewhat get frustrated when individuals are typed based on quadra values. The notion that types in the same quadra share the same goals and beliefs is ridiculous. Even amongst your own type, you would find differences as well.

[Creepy-]

Even amongst your own type, you would find differences as well.

Case in point - I ran into an INTj the other day, and he thought that everything should be done in the way he believed. Which is completely absurd and outrageous, and contradictory, because it is clear everything should be done my way.

It really made me wonder if he was rational at all.

[Raver]

Removed.

[science as magic]

@traveler i was not particularly saying anything

[Creepy-]

Even amongst your own type, you would find differences as well.

(a joke)

Just wanted to clarify.

[cracka]

Case in point - I ran into an INTj the other day, and he thought that everything should be done in the way he believed. Which is completely absurd and outrageous, and contradictory, because it is clear everything should be done my way.

It's sad, but for the most part, I really do think this way...lol
ah, life as an ESTJ...

[Raver]

@traveler i was not particularly saying anything

I had a feeling you would respond in such a manner. I understand, that what you stated could of meant other things as well. Sorry if it appeared that I was putting words in your mouth.

Even amongst your own type, you would find differences as well.

(a joke)

Just wanted to clarify.

That description you gave sounded like an ESFj to me.

[Creepy-]

Even amongst your own type, you would find differences as well.

(a joke)

Just wanted to clarify.

That description you gave sounded like an ESFj to me.

yeah it does, looking back on it. That "Ms. Piggy" logic, I remember reading on one MBTI description site a long time ago...

Something about chopsticks

[Ms. Kensington]

I don't know if elitism is the right word, but maybe I'm defining it differently than you guys. Elitism to me implies some kind snobbish clickyness - which I think Gammas precisely do not do (I'd see this more characteristic of Alphas maybe). Gammas do think very highly of themselves and can come off cocky as all hell, but they've got a real non-prententious down to Earth way about how they do it.

Yeah, I agree with that.


Oh, and elitism certainly isn't just for Gammas. But for me it isn't just about "snobbish clickyness". (See the "rationality" thread)

I know of the "invidualism" you mentioned, Gilligan.

never ceases to amaze me how at odds gammas and alphas seem.. i would think it was just the opposite of how Dyn. said because Fi is about the clique. so many connotations, you must know that nothing is personal that i say.

edit: i realize what D means. like i said, alpha and gamma have very different values.

[Ms. Kensington]

because Fi is about the clique.

No, it isn't. Not in the least bit.

Fi is about selective attachment. however, i will edit that earlier response if it causes trouble.

[Expat]

This is why I somewhat get frustrated when individuals are typed based on quadra values. The notion that types in the same quadra share the same goals and beliefs is ridiculous. Even amongst your own type, you would find differences as well.

That notion is indeed ridiculous, but that is not what quadra "values" are about. You simply misunderstood the concept. That is not what it is about at all.

You are dismissing it because you have simply failed to understand it.

Apologies if I'm hitting your PoLR, but there is no other way to put it.

[Ms. Kensington]

Fi is about selective attachment. however, i will edit that earlier response if it causes trouble.

It's not causing trouble, don't be so non-confrontational. If you genuinely believe this, please explain your case.

thats the thing, there are lots of interpretations. what i mean to say is not as strong as "genuinely believing" "this"

[FDG]

This is why I somewhat get frustrated when individuals are typed based on quadra values. The notion that types in the same quadra share the same goals and beliefs is ridiculous. Even amongst your own type, you would find differences as well.

That notion is indeed ridiculous, but that is not what quadra "values" are about. You simply misunderstood the concept. That is not what it is about at all.

You are dismissing it because you have simply failed to understand it.

Apologies if I'm hitting your PoLR, but there is no other way to put it.

A better wording would be that people of the same quadra have the same way of looking at things. Therefore, even if their goals are different, on an individual-task level the cooperation is most likely going to be successful.

[FDG]

Fi is about selective attachment. however, i will edit that earlier response if it causes trouble.

It's not causing trouble, don't be so non-confrontational. If you genuinely believe this, please explain your case.

thats the thing, there are lots of interpretations. what i mean to say is not as strong as "genuinely believing" "this"

Well then, tell us what you mean.

[Expat]

A better wording would be that people of the same quadra have the same way of looking at things. Therefore, even if their goals are different, on an individual-task level the cooperation is most likely going to be successful.

Yes. Another way is to say that people of the same quadra have the same way of approaching things.

So, of course two different -dominant individuals may have completely different specific goals and ethical values, but they will understand where the other is coming from - from focus on own ethical values, rather than on .

[Kristiina]

A better wording would be that people of the same quadra have the same way of looking at things. Therefore, even if their goals are different, on an individual-task level the cooperation is most likely going to be successful.

Yes. Another way is to say that people of the same quadra have the same way of approaching things.

So, of course two different -dominant individuals may have completely different specific goals and ethical values, but they will understand where the other is coming from - from focus on own ethical values, rather than on .

Should this also be true across nations and religions? If a religious Muslim, a Christian and a Buddhist of different ages discuss life (what is their purpose in life), should they understand each others point of view? Probably not really.

What if they are all from the same quadra? Still don't think so! The same type? Naaah! Their backgrounds are still too different.

is something personal. I don't think quadra is about what goes on inside the person, it's about the method the person uses to explain it. Alpha uses , gamma uses . alpha NTs don't use much Fe, but they express themselves in a way that is easy to understand to alpha SFs. Same with gamma SFs and Te.

[Expat]

Should this also be true across nations and religions? If a religious Muslim, a Christian and a Buddhist of different ages discuss life (what is their purpose in life), should they understand each others point of view? Probably not really.

You miss the point completely.

They would not agree on the specifics of the religion, but they would understand that the other persons are also focusing on their own religious beliefs, rather than on emotional manipulation . Of course people of wildly different cultures and belief systems will not easily get along, no matter what their types, but this is a claim that socionics doesn't make.

To put it another way: a fanatical Christian would understand better that a fanatical Muslim is willing to die for their beliefs than someone who does not focus on religion at all. That has nothing to do with their s being in agreement.

[Kristiina]

I think you're right.
PS! I skim-read this thread, because I was away for a couple of days.

[science as magic]

I had a feeling you would respond in such a manner. I understand, that what you stated could of meant other things as well. Sorry if it appeared that I was putting words in your mouth.

Not at all. : )

[Raver]

This is why I somewhat get frustrated when individuals are typed based on quadra values. The notion that types in the same quadra share the same goals and beliefs is ridiculous. Even amongst your own type, you would find differences as well.

That notion is indeed ridiculous, but that is not what quadra "values" are about. You simply misunderstood the concept. That is not what it is about at all.

You are dismissing it because you have simply failed to understand it.

Apologies if I'm hitting your PoLR, but there is no other way to put it.

It's alright, I understand it more after your explanations and it made more sense after I created the opposition model. Especially when I relate to individuals I know from my own quadra. Of course, saying I fully understand it would be a lie, and I must look more deeply into this subject before I draw any conclusions. I always try to look at concepts and situations at more than one way, which results in confusion, but I'll leave that for another topic.

[youfloweryourfeast]

They can come off as being clicky/snobby like. Me and my ILE friend are in a class with pretty much all gamma nts and she says this abt them. I think they really form close bonds with another and don't really want to branch out, and can be exclusive at time. idk, im starting to think gamma quadra is the most exclusive quadra. <:3

[Sol]

> sense of elitism

Fe - "I'm great"
Ti - formal hierarchy

[lavos]

Well, I see myself as someone who is at the same time both very much fair minded as well as high minded. I keep a high opinion of myself on the back burner, which goes along with the individualism/elitism that I feel is very much a part of my personality. However, on the surface, I fight for things to be "fair" and equal in all ways. It's an interesting paradox that I observe regularly in myself: my ideals and behavior are very much democratic, while my natural inclinations are more aristocratic.

This is pretty much the deal with gammas.

[Renna]

Yeah I think the Se value give the need for being more powerful/ having more resources to secure their freedom/luxury.

But Gamma would treat the social hierarchy system very loosely and doesn’t pay attention to detail, and it could lead a society under their influence become very chaotic.

In the capitalism era (which many would say it’s heavily influenced by Gamma), many social movements/trend exist and clashing with each other, the rich still rich and the poor still poor. Gamma doesn’t trying too much on focusing on a society idea and just let people do as they please.

The Aristocratic and Democratic part of Socionics should not understand in common political point of view. It’s more a bout how much a “Quadra” pay attention for different social groups.

P/S: Everyone are free to do what they want, but my freedom, is obviously more important than yours…

[Disturbed]

Gammas control their behavior better than all the other types or at least what they say, in sharp contrast to Betas and Alphas and in a slightly smaller contrast to Deltas. Something I've noticed in Gammas is that they think very, very highly of their intellect especially in comparison to others. It would be inaccurate to say they're substantially more snobby/desirous of luxury than the 2 preceding quadras, despite what Alphas NTs will tell you about themselves. It would also be inaccurate to say they adhere to external standards less than Betas do, if anything they adhere more.

[Averroes]

I value money and freedom over status although they often go hand in hand. I’d rather be a contractor or business owner doing something that I believe in and allows me to live my life on my own terms than have the responsibilities and constraints of someone high up on the corporate ladder