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Thread: Shy Extraverts and Social Introverts

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    Default Shy Extraverts and Social Introverts

    Just saw pianosinger's thread about unimaginative intuitives and imaginative sensors and thought it would be a good idea to start a thread about this.

    There are some extraverts that can be shy and can appear introverted and usually they tend to be intuitives. Also there are introverts that can be talkative and can appear extraverted and usually they tend to be sensors.

    Anyways, I think this is why it can make it more difficult to type yourself because then you have to look at the functions to figure out what you really are rather than your social behaviour, and in the end functions are merely metaphorical representations of actual cognitive functions.
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    I can appear shy when around ESEs.

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    ESFp and ESFj are more introverted than others E
    hmm Extroverted introverts can be ISFj

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    Note that socionics introtim/extrotim has little to do with the vernacular usage of introversion/extroversion.

    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...haracteristics

    A common misconception, also compounded by some interpretations of MBTI or even of Jung's typology, is that extratims are extraverted as in "socially outgoing", and intratims are introverted as in "socially reserved".
    Roughly speaking, Jung's interpretation of extroversion/introversion is:

    Extroversion- Oriented predominately by the outer world, with psychic energy tending to flow outward.
    Introversion- Oriented predominately by the inner "world", with psychic energy tending to flow inward.

    It has also been regarded as objective/subjective and object/relation. At any rate, it is so that orientation of the psychic energy does not create hard lines of outgoing/reserved, so outgoing introverts/reserved extroverts is perfectly feasible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nil View Post
    Note that socionics introtim/extrotim has little to do with the vernacular usage of introversion/extroversion.

    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...haracteristics

    A common misconception, also compounded by some interpretations of MBTI or even of Jung's typology, is that extratims are extraverted as in "socially outgoing", and intratims are introverted as in "socially reserved".
    Roughly speaking, Jung's interpretation of extroversion/introversion is:

    Extroversion- Oriented predominately by the outer world, with psychic energy tending to flow outward.
    Introversion- Oriented predominately by the inner "world", with psychic energy tending to flow inward.

    It has also been regarded as objective/subjective and object/relation. At any rate, it is so that orientation of the psychic energy does not create hard lines of outgoing/reserved, so outgoing introverts/reserved extroverts is perfectly feasible.
    Yes

    I find Delta Extratims to be the least extroverted out of all Extratims in general, and Beta Introtims to be the most outgoing of all Introtims in general, though SEIs are pretty outgoing at times... I get a bit less outgoing in winter months, and that's probably due to the change of seasons...
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    ESFp and ESFj are more introverted than others E
    this is supposed to read the exact opposite way, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nil View Post
    Note that socionics introtim/extrotim has little to do with the vernacular usage of introversion/extroversion.

    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...haracteristics

    A common misconception, also compounded by some interpretations of MBTI or even of Jung's typology, is that extratims are extraverted as in "socially outgoing", and intratims are introverted as in "socially reserved".
    Roughly speaking, Jung's interpretation of extroversion/introversion is:

    Extroversion- Oriented predominately by the outer world, with psychic energy tending to flow outward.
    Introversion- Oriented predominately by the inner "world", with psychic energy tending to flow inward.

    It has also been regarded as objective/subjective and object/relation. At any rate, it is so that orientation of the psychic energy does not create hard lines of outgoing/reserved, so outgoing introverts/reserved extroverts is perfectly feasible.
    I'm aware of this, but it can be trickier to determine if an introvert was shaped at young childhood to be more energized by the outer world, and an extrovert was pressured at young childhood to be more energized by the inner world. I guess you could say these people are at the cusp as a result of the environment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    ESFp and ESFj are more introverted than others E
    this is supposed to read the exact opposite way, right?
    big mistake from me, time to go sleep


    here I found quite interesting information
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ht=extraverted

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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungAndAware View Post
    I'm aware of this, but it can be trickier to determine if an introvert was shaped at young childhood to be more energized by the outer world, and an extrovert was pressured at young childhood to be more energized by the inner world. I guess you could say these people are at the cusp as a result of the environment.
    I have little doubt that personality is shaped by both inborn tendencies and environmental interference but I can't be sure to what extent. At any rate, I understand what you are saying, but you specifically mentioned "shy extroverts" and "social introverts". Perhaps I am wrong, but I'm not sure if orientation by outer or inner world can be related to shyness or sociability. That is, I'm not sure if an introvert being socially outgoing will indicate that he is more shaped by the outer world as you are saying here. It could be that he is still shaped by the inner world as much as any other introvert, and he is just more outgoing. Is the gradation of introversion/extroversion tied to the level of sociability one portrays? Eh, maybe, but even still, one shouldn't judge introversion/extroversion by whether he is shy or outgoing.

    Gulenko, it seems, believes that the level of sociability an individual has is more related to subtype. I'm not sure if I believe that, and I certainly don't agree with making even more dichotomies, but here it is. Contact/Distance, he calls it.

    The post pianosinger posted that Anglas linked to might also be valuable, but still not 100% accurate in all cases.

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    I've noticed that a number of LSI I know tend to be social, or at least far more social than myself and most LII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nil View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by YoungAndAware View Post
    I'm aware of this, but it can be trickier to determine if an introvert was shaped at young childhood to be more energized by the outer world, and an extrovert was pressured at young childhood to be more energized by the inner world. I guess you could say these people are at the cusp as a result of the environment.
    I have little doubt that personality is shaped by both inborn tendencies and environmental interference but I can't be sure to what extent. At any rate, I understand what you are saying, but you specifically mentioned "shy extroverts" and "social introverts". Perhaps I am wrong, but I'm not sure if orientation by outer or inner world can be related to shyness or sociability. That is, I'm not sure if an introvert being socially outgoing will indicate that he is more shaped by the outer world as you are saying here. It could be that he is still shaped by the inner world as much as any other introvert, and he is just more outgoing. Is the gradation of introversion/extroversion tied to the level of sociability one portrays? Eh, maybe, but even still, one shouldn't judge introversion/extroversion by whether he is shy or outgoing.

    Gulenko, it seems, believes that the level of sociability an individual has is more related to subtype. I'm not sure if I believe that, and I certainly don't agree with making even more dichotomies, but here it is. Contact/Distance, he calls it.

    The post pianosinger posted that Anglas linked to might also be valuable, but still not 100% accurate in all cases.
    I agree with you on the fact that sociability and extraversion/introversion are not necessarily compatible if only slightly. I also think subtypes just complicate things further unnecessarily and aren't required.
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    producing subtypes are more extraverted than accepting subtypes.

    Maybe that's got something to do with it...?

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    Well, I'm an introvert that likes to debate and enlighten, to give clues and pieces to the larger puzzle, to work out potential and dragon serpentine long plots to archive how the many database references all stack into 1 for the big show, like putting ice cubes into Coca Cola for the level to rise, even if the analysis is not as happy or branching as signature polarity in the eyes of those using intuitive and feeling would explode beyond the pinch of overgrowth over.

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    lol I’ve never known anyone irl to call me extroverted, everyone usually talks about how introverted I am. My eldest daughter and I have talked about how there are extroverted introverts and introverted extroverts. According to my kiddos I’m an introvert-introvert

    I can occasionally be pretty talkative when I’m in the right mood and I’m enthusiastic about something, around people Im comfortable around. Usually though I do like to be around people, just not talk that much or socialize. I like to people watch and just not be lonely I guess...so yeah...what I would call a group oriented introvert introvert
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    I'm not shy but I can have paranoia in non concrete ways. Shyness is about having uncomfortable feelings of personal judgment whereas paranoia is the fear of external person/circumstances.


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    really if you think about it, it could correspond to dcnh with extroverted introverts having a extroverted subtype and introverted extroverts having an introverted subtype. Introverted introverts would be introverts with N or H and so on...

    thoughts? Maybe someone already mentioned it. I didn’t read the whole thread
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    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    @aster, that is a good point - does the dichotomy of contact/distance play a part? so that would be the N - H subtypes.

    the socionika website considers sociability in its descriptions of introversion/extraversion - I thought it was interesting:



    These features are based on the attitude to the perception of information: object and subject. For extroverts, I am one of the objects of this world; for introverts, I am the subject around which the world is built.


    Quite often, these signs are confused with such qualities as sociability - unsociability. However, sociability is essentially a contact, the ability to easily and quickly converge with people. These qualities are largely determined by the attributes of logic-ethics. On average, ethicists are more sociable than logicians.


    An unsociable extrovert tends to observe the world from the outside, noticing everything that happens, but not coming into contact with people. A sociable introvert may have intense contact with people, either because they are included in his subjective world, or because he needs information that is directly relevant to his subjective world.


    For another thread: What do the logicians have to say about the bolded part
    ahhh yeah and that’s a good point about ethical types being more sociable, didn’t think about bringing that into this myself.
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    Social interaction or shyness has more to do with self-confidence or the lack thereof than it does type. Being Ij, I most definitely need my alone time but I've never been shy or a recluse. When under stress, many Ejs will go quiet and isolate. Ips may often duck certain company but their rationalization processes really do need people stimulus. Eps seem to socialize well but only on their own terms and will sometimes need to get away from people. Humans are social animals and need interaction even if it's simply watching what's happening. The terms extravert and introvert aren't really applicable to information processing; terms like externally and internally-referenced processes would perhaps be less ambiguous when determining one's type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aster View Post
    really if you think about it, it could correspond to dcnh with extroverted introverts having a extroverted subtype and introverted extroverts having an introverted subtype. Introverted introverts would be introverts with N or H and so on...

    thoughts? Maybe someone already mentioned it. I didn’t read the whole thread
    I'm LII-C and I think I'm socially introverted but I didn't notice any other LIIs in my environment so I'm not sure.

    I think most researchers (except LIE) are socially introverted. It depends on many factors. I am an active participate on the Internet but I hardly ever speak in real lives since I don't share many common interests with the people in my environment.

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    Just colloquially I'm more or less ambiverted and have no problem yapping away with the Uber driver or whatever if I'm in the mood. Prob set apart as more socially introverted based on the fact that things like interviewing (or having prospective new tenants walk through my space, like today, ugh) are uniquely and distinctively anxiety provoking.

    I like to go out for energy but then after awhile I need to go home to replenish energy- crazy

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    I'm narcissistically very introverted lol. Even simply saying 'hi' in real life sometimes can feel like I'm climbing mt. Everest in effort & exhaustion. lol it's pretty bad.

    I don't think it has anything to do with confidence- I just think it appears that way. Even when I'm feeling very confident- I don't really want anything to do with anybody else. Unless they appreciate my own identity or something. I think introverts are very self-absorbed in a way- I don't believe that feel good crap that we're 'more giving' or whatever. We don't know how to be giving enough- that's the problem and why we have social problems. It's really quite obvious. As a demonic introvert, I have to constantly tell myself 'oh it's not about me here. Okay!' (pretends to be socially engaged) With extroverts it comes naturally and they are naturally charged by other people.

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    I come off as introverted in the being, but once I'm comfortable I tend to be more extroverted.
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    I'm pretty socially ambiverted LSI-Ti. I would say that my lifetime shyness/nervousness when interacting with people has been 33%, so I'm generally not shy, i usually feel comfortable talking to people as they want to be talked to and sometimes i talk to strangers and as long as I feel i have something to say; i've never been one to want to keep many of my thoughts private. I'm usually fine and not self-conscious with meeting new people as long as they aren't scary, however, I hate having my picture taken.

    I'm pretty informal, I don't like much formality, I like familiarity in communication and not going strictly with official roles, which is the opposite of what Victor Gulenko wrote in his subtype description of LSI-Ti. I also have always done poorly, misunderstood, and hated hierarchical relations, which is the opposite of what would be expected for an LSI-Ti according to Gulenko. I think in his subtype descriptions, he got the 2 mixed up, because I'm pretty impulsive and irregular.
    I'm sorry, but I'm psychologically disturbed.


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    ...I'm shy...

    The Barnum or Forer effect is the tendency for people to judge that general, universally valid statements about personality are actually specific descriptions of their own personalities. A "universally valid" statement is one that is true of everyone—or, more likely, nearly everyone. It is not known why people tend to make such misjudgments, but the effect has been experimentally reproduced.

    The psychologist Paul Meehl named this fallacy "the P.T. Barnum effect" because Barnum built his circus and dime museum on the principle of having something for everyone. It is also called "the Forer effect" after its discoverer, the psychologist Bertram R. Forer, who modestly dubbed it "the fallacy of personal validation".

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    Whether I’m introverted/extraverted in social interaction depends on whether I feel comfortable or nervous around my present company. When I’m around people who I’m close to, I feel comfortable and the social interaction energizes me. When I’m around others, I feel nervous (to varying degrees—depending on the person/people present) and the social interaction drains my energy.

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    Using words feels like a Herculean task for me half the time

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    As far as I know I'm an introverted introvert. I don't think anyone would consider me as seeming extroverted. Even if I'm comfortable around people I still have a very reserved aura
    Chronic "grass is always greener" syndrome




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    Might just be the contact/inert stuff rather than being a dichotomial enhancement.
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    It's possibly that besides Jung types exist _other_ psyche traits which predispose to _same_ behavior.
    For example. In case of higher anxiety in some conditions a human reduces communications there. The difference with a human of introverted type will be the (average) degree or quantity of such behavior, as for introverted people +1 factor predisposes to that behavior.
    Such other traits can be related to stable and life long psyche traits too. For example, as described in other typology of Enneageam types. Where 9 type has traits similar to Jung's introvertion and for Fi types.
    As an example of artificial factor to notice such effect are seductive meds. They supress inner emotions and hence emotional expression. So such people temporarily get higher expression of T types traits, - their externally seen behavior gets some shift to T types side. Other factor which has similar effect are glasses - as they partly hide nonverbal behavior near eyes and a human may be perceived as lesser emotional one. It's the reason why for VI method it's recommended to identify types people when those are not under psycheactive substances (including alcohol) and do not wear glasses.

    To this theme also relate situations when some factors change the behavior by functional model specifics.
    For example, when we deal with new people and want give better impression - we arise the behavior related to role function. Though, it's not about E/I changes - but about 4 functions. Base F types try to show more traits of T types and vice versa. That's why it's useful to allow a new human to adopt to you and to a situation, to give a time to relax, to calm and to feel more assured - this reduces role function and makes the behavior closer to nanural for him, and hence reduces distortions which oppose to correct type's understanding. In case a human makes a videointerview, even at own home, it's important that this video was not too short (10 minutes, at least) so a human had some minutes to adopt and to such behaved in nonverbal more naturally for his Jung type. Same, when you see a human in new for him company of people - it's useful to let some time to pass so he adopted and this made easier to understand his correct type.
    Some artificial factors probably may influence on specific functional activity too. Alcohol supresses the mind in a way, that ego functions reduce the activity more than weak functions. So a human temporarily gets higher relative activity of weak functions. The mind gets more attention than before on weak functions contents. For example, T types may feel and express more of emotions (including which were as lesser conscious for a human), while F types may produce more of logical ideas. Besides the mind's work is worsened in general by alcohol, the quality of weak functions contents are not high, - people behave more "childish". Also, as the opposing of functions is reduced - an additional energy can be noticed by the concicousness, what should temporarily make emotional state as more positive. Such alcohol's effects copy the influence of good IR communications (more when those are close as a friendship) and maybe people who have redundant alcohol attraction can reduce it by good IR interactions, besides higher own activity in superid regions (also should help lesser activity in weak nonvalued regions and lesser of bad IR informal interactions).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    It's possibly that besides Jung types exist _other_ psyche traits which predispose to _same_ behavior.
    For example. In case of higher anxiety in some conditions a human reduces communications there. The difference with a human of introverted type will be the (average) degree or quantity of such behavior, as for introverted people +1 factor predisposes to that behavior.
    Such other traits can be related to stable and life long psyche traits too. For example, as described in other typology of Enneageam types. Where 9 type has traits similar to Jung's introvertion and for Fi types.
    As an example of artificial factor to notice such effect are seductive meds. They supress inner emotions and hence emotional expression. So such people temporarily get higher expression of T types traits, - their externally seen behavior gets some shift to T types side. Other factor which has similar effect are glasses - as they partly hide nonverbal behavior near eyes and a human may be perceived as lesser emotional one. It's the reason why for VI method it's recommended to identify types people when those are not under psycheactive substances (including alcohol) and do not wear glasses.

    To this theme also relate situations when some factors change the behavior by functional model specifics.
    For example, when we deal with new people and want give better impression - we arise the behavior related to role function. Though, it's not about E/I changes - but about 4 functions. Base F types try to show more traits of T types and vice versa. That's why it's useful to allow a new human to adopt to you and to a situation, to give a time to relax, to calm and to feel more assured - this reduces role function and makes the behavior closer to nanural for him, and hence reduces distortions which oppose to correct type's understanding. In case a human makes a videointerview, even at own home, it's important that this video was not too short (10 minutes, at least) so a human had some minutes to adopt and to such behaved in nonverbal more naturally for his Jung type. Same, when you see a human in new for him company of people - it's useful to let some time to pass so he adopted and this made easier to understand his correct type.
    Some artificial factors probably may influence on specific functional activity too. Alcohol supresses the mind in a way, that ego functions reduce the activity more than weak functions. So a human temporarily gets higher relative activity of weak functions. The mind gets more attention than before on weak functions contents. For example, T types may feel and express more of emotions (including which were as lesser conscious for a human), while F types may produce more of logical ideas. Besides the mind's work is worsened in general by alcohol, the quality of weak functions contents are not high, - people behave more "childish". Also, as the opposing of functions is reduced - an additional energy can be noticed by the concicousness, what should temporarily make emotional state as more positive. Such alcohol's effects copy the influence of good IR communications (more when those are close as a friendship) and maybe people who have redundant alcohol attraction can reduce it by good IR interactions, besides higher own activity in superid regions (also should help lesser activity in weak nonvalued regions and lesser of bad IR informal interactions).
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    Fe is a helluva drug and loud as shit regardless of where it is in the stack.

    Si ain't the pushiest function. In other words, if, say, an LII is in an Fe mood they'll be unusually loud and gregarious and this is particularly true for Ne subtypes. If an LII switches to an Si fixation, they'll be more isolative psychologically.

    Rather than being specifically type related, Fe might be the most "social" function while Si might be the most psychologically solitary function

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