i could nitpick at a few things on that list but i think overall its really good.
enough with the ile tyrion madness
I'm not sure I envision Littlefinger as EIE.
after giving more thought towards ygritte i'm thinking sle is a better fit than see. she's just... not smooth, at all. lse would actually be my second guess. i loved how she gave that little speech to jon all like "you dont have any choice but to have my back, and anyway, if you don't i'll kill you," lol. very pragmatic. curious why people are seeing Fi. (though i'm not entirely opposed to the idea)
Cersei is probably a logical type, most likely SLE. She would have been a great character had she been a man.
"Cersei is as gentle as King Maegor, as selfless as Aegon the Unworthy, as wise as Mad Aerys. She never forgets a slight, real or imagined. She takes caution for cowardice and dissent for defiance. And she is greedy. Greedy for power, for honour, for love." - Tyrion, on his sister
I find her antics quite amusing. She is honestly becoming one of my favorite characters.
Jaime Lannister as ILE is interesting. SLE does fit his persona as a knight, and the way he tends to err in his estimation of his position and overplay his hand.. SLEs don't seem to me to be the sort who would make such a mistake, losing a hand as a result. I type Brienne of Tarth as SLI (Fi HA stands out in how she's so insistent in fulfilling her Fi duty to ESI Catelyn Stark), so that would make them semi-duals if Jaime's ILE.Originally Posted by Raver
My analysis:
Tyrion Lannister is Fe-EIE. Shae is LSI. Her Ne PoLR is obvious in that scene with Sansa Stark where they were both standing at the waterfront staring at the ship. Sansa initiated a game with Shae where they were to make up stories regarding the ship, and Sansa went all Ne on Shae, who went realistic and was admonished by Sansa for not being more imaginative. EII is a good typing for Sansa. I don't see any Se in her - she is mostly conflict avoidant and Arya supervises her like crazy.
Littlefinger is interesting - most likely EIE, Ni sub in the way he orchestrates his schemes and knows all too well the art of lovemaking. One of my favourite GoT characters. His interaction with Lord Varys is... wow. Varys is hard to type - LIE, Ni sub is possible. Both are farsighted, but Varys isn't half as cruel as Littlefinger. End scene in Season 3 eps 6 between the two (a most revealing interaction), betrayed Varys' "weakness" for Fi. Also revealed in how he managed to gently persuade Ros to his side (using trust). The persistence that Varys showed in plotting his revenge against the sorcerer is admirable (reminds me of Edmond Dantes in The Count of Monte Cristo).
Joffrey Baratheon is LII. Cowardly as fuck, he has to resort to cruel crossbow torture to make himself feel less powerless and compensate for his utter lack of Se. Arya hates him. Margaery Tyrell is Fe-EIE. A smooth conversationalist and very likeable, good persuasion skills and able to "win" the crowd for Joffrey. His mom, Cersei Lannister is LSI (Se PoLR showed up in her unreasonable fear in the scene where Bran Stark discovered her fucking Jaime. Jaime was cool and unflappable while Cersei panicked away - E6). Tywin Lannister is LSI. Note the comment Tywin made to Cersei regarding her utter inability to control/manipulate Joffrey (with Fe) where Margaery was able.
Tywin and Margaery's granny, Lady Olenna Tyrell (Ni-EIE) is a dual pair. Note the very quip and clever conversation between the two when Tywin foiled Olenna's plan to have Sansa marry her grandson. That was a great scene on LSI-EIE interaction, ending with the EIE being impressed by the LSI (for living up to his reputation).
Melissandre seems like an EIE (can't exactly tell since she does magic and is a witch) and Arya looked rather hesitant in their brief interaction, as if not knowing how to react to the Ni mystical information. I initially thought SLI for Stannis Baratheon, but LSI fits better in how he's so taken up by Melissandre's mystical Ni urgings. Ygritte and Jon Snow is an adorable couple - I can see SLE-IEI now that it's been pointed out. Robb Stark and his wife is LIE and ESI respectively.
Last edited by Zenoa; 05-16-2013 at 06:31 PM.
SLE's tend to overplay their hand, ILE's tend to underplay. The base function tends to be a bit overconfident vs the role. This is why SLE's often get into trouble in life and have problems with authority, the nail that sticks out gets hammered down.
In the same way ILE's will overplay their , going with ideas that are not yet ready for materialization.
I think these are pretty terrible typings, I hope nobody takes them seriously.
Naw, Cersei is EIE, her actress Lena Headey is imo LSI.
What I've bolded is basically the EIE's hidden agenda in a nutshell.
What Tyrion says about Cersei here is something that can be said about many bitter and disappointing EIE's. While at their best EIE's can be quite inspiring and wonderful individuals.
I might pull something out of my arse if I won't forget it, regarding the thread of course...
joffrey is too much like discojoe to not be LSI
SLEs have 4D Se, which means that they are good at estimating exactly how much force to apply in order to get what they want. They know where territorial boundaries lie and the extent of their influence. The ILEs that I have seen irl otoh... think they can get away with anything, and seemed genuinely surprised when they get into trouble and people call them out for it? The only other probable ILE I noticed in GoT is the naive Theon Greyjoy. Last I saw, his balls were being chopped off.
Anyway, I thought further on Sansa, and I think she's LII>EII. I think you hit the nail on the fantasies, except that those were fairy tale fantasies>power fantasies. Alpha.
Could be, except that their interaction seemed rather too smooth. I'm not seeing the counterphobic Fe-PoLR sniping and snapping at supervisor behavior nor phobic ignoring. Instead of calling Littlefinger out on his bullshit, he seems to accept where he's coming from (shared creative Ni) but doesn't agree with his non-Fi emphasis.Originally Posted by InvisibleJim
Varys' objection implies that he agrees with Littlefinger that history is a lie (or seems to be), but a lie is what it is - a lie, and is unsustainable when truth (or Te facts) is revealed (Fe+Ni illusion is unsustainable). Littlefinger is far more confident - lies build upon lies; perception is all there is. Allow yourself to be constraint by Fi (calling them illusions); refuse to go all out for the "climb", and you will lose and die. Winning is everything (Se HA).Littlefinger: The realm… Do you know what the realm is? It’s the thousand blades of Aegon’s enemies; a story we agree to tell each other over and over until we forget that it’s a lie.
Varys: But what do we have left once we abandon the lie? Chaos. A gaping pit waiting to swallow us all.
Littlefinger: Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, never getting to try again. The fall breaks them. Some, given a chance to climb refused… They cling to the realm – for the Gods, for love… Illusions! Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.
It's weird that the characters I typed as EIEs tend to get lumped into the ILE category. EIEs may come in many shapes and sizes, but they are good at crafting images (aka illusions), successfully playing with perception (in areas where facts are hazy/unknown/irrelevant). ILEs... it's as if they're so caught up in the workings of their own imagination, they extrapolate it into reality - big mistake.
Cersei is Se-LSI E6:
Actress Lena Headey otoh, could be EIE: https://twitter.com/IAMLenaHeadey“She’s very politically minded and paranoid, she tries very hard to keep it together. She seems very controlled. But underneath, everything is completely falling apart… Her quest is to stay in control, no matter what that means to her or to anyone else.”
“… She keeps it all behind closed doors and lets known only to whom she trusts. She loves his brother and she trusts him and stays with him as long he’s faithful and loyal to her politics. I don’t think she has any love for Sansa.”
4D Se doesn't mean someone automatically get the skills to play the game, but it might give the individual the confidence to take risks. People aren't exactly born skilled, no matter what their potential is. Jamie almost always get what he wants as well he's not exactly known for being a push over. What defines Jamie has been his supreme confidence in his abilities, this is a characteristic of SLE's that's inspiring but at the same time gets them into trouble. Given the way you type ILE, I doubt you really understand them or even met many of them. Theon is IEI, he's power seeking but got 1D , he's largely pushed around by his sister and others. He exemplifies the kind of IEI that is a follower. He basically becomes a follower of anyone that he's around whether it is Robb, Asha or Ramsey switching sides constantly. He is able to proclaim his loyalties to all three of these individuals quite naturally while also shifting them quickly. The thing about ILE is they don't follow, and they don't have the volition seeking super-id to go after most status positions. This is a heavy researcher type that characterizes researchers, bookworms, inventors. What ILE is mostly defined by is there unwillingness to take responsibility for things, and only grudgingly doing so for some benefit or getting left alone so they can pursue their own interests. If you offer a ILE a position of authority or responsibility, they're generally only willing to take it out of necessity and avoid them otherwise. What they really want is to be left alone to do what they want and only engage in responsibilities, authority, and human relations out of necessity. This is because and are areas of the super-ego, the mental block that governs social pressures and expectations. This is a area of pain.
Fairy tale fantasies are power fantasies....
Knights and princesses, it's basically fantasies of privilege and status.
this is bs really. sansa's fantasies were mostly of a romantic nature. she was a fan of the story of jonquil, which is classical romance vs status thing. she's dreaming about *handsome* knights like joffrey and loras, whether they're the crown prince or third son. in today's world she'd be a teenage all pink justin bieber fangirl. you're making up all this shit about how she's into playing power games to get her out of your quadra, so that you can keep insisting against all evidence that the cooler characters in the series are alphas. if you reread her chapters you'd notice she's the most oblivious character to power games until ned's death, and though she learns a bit afterwards, she's obvious in her lies and often expresses her disgust with politics (& continues to be extremely naive in her thoughts about margaery and others). as she becomes less naive and more knowledgeable, starting to comprehend the game, she's actually losing her "lost in fantasy" side. therefore "power fantasies" is one of the least accurate descriptions of sansa ever.
From what I've seen her character is quite clueless to the point Ned advises her regarding her choice of future husbands...
Yea, then why are there so many Gamma's in Rennessance festivals and LARPs. ^_^
Well she was young at one point and she engaged in "power" fantasies, but now she's older, she's going to engage in power games. The thing about princesses and Knights and chivalry is basically power and not romance. You think the romance of Tyrion and a crofter's daughter is any less classically romantic than Sansa's fantasies. Of course they' are, Tysha is no less a princess for Tyrion. She is a Dulcinea to Tyrion's Don Quixote, something of a primal motivator and the most important single individual to his romantic fantasy life. His whoring, his treatement of whores, his weakness towards them is defined by how he thinks about her(as he thinks she's a whore that Jamie hired). The is no more important individual to Tyrion's romantic life than this individual who is a whore/peasant and without status.
Even taking a look at Don Quixote as a contrast to the standard pastoral "classical" romance novel of that era. Don Quixote is a book worm gone mad, he rides a nag of a horse, his squire is a fat peasant named Sancho, his princess is Dulcinea, another peasant. He treats a inn as a castle, he treats prostitutes as ladies. The Duke and Duchess gives Sancho a position of power(for their amusement) which he isn't terrible at.
Game of Thrones is no more a inversion of the tropes of the typical trashy fantasy novel, as Don Quixote is a inversion of the tropes of the typical pastorial novels.
What is the world to Tyrion, what does he want to do, he wants to explore the world like his Uncle Gerion(his goal at 16), read his books, he treats his whores kindly, he likes wine and hedonism and not power and intrigue. His romance is that of a peasant's daughter, He is a modern day Don Quixote, he's even got a Sancho named Bronn.
http://herocomplex.latimes.com/books...he-genre-wars/
His stories are no more than the genre war that Cervantes fought hundreds years ago.
GRRM makes no secret of his love for "cripples, bastards and broken things", his story is that. The heroes are parodies, a Dwarf, a Bastard, a Female, Cripples like Jamie and Theon(and yes he is a hero), but I won't spoil what happens later.
Anyways, it doesn't take very long to type GRRM, he is ILE or LII, probably ILE.
http://www.mediaite.com/online/game-...ead-elephants/
http://grrm.livejournal.com/287215.html
http://grrm.livejournal.com/tag/politics
He is essentially a individual dedicated to egalitarian ideals, social justice and his stories represents those ideas. Anyways, you can choose to avoid my interpretation of him and his works, but I have my reasons for typing him and his characters the way I do.
if game of thrones were alpha: summer is coming
oljUbOw.jpg
I don't think Summer has much to do with Alpha. Winter is coming, but after that Spring.
And that's probably how GOT will end. Spring.
You have a totally wrong stereotype of Alpha. It's a "live and let live" quadra, and for that principal to abide it has to be dark, because both dark and light must live and let live.
The quadra is amoral, hedonists and can participate in a number of legal and illegal narcotics, they enjoy things like sex, food, games. Formal(chivalric) speech isn't something that Alpha's enjoy nor is social etiquette or courtly manners a part of alpha values, nor is the pretentiousness of a courtly setting. The idea that stuff like courtesys, lords, ladies, knights as being alpha is just plain bollocks. It's food, drugs(in moderation and experimentation), sex and various vices that characterize Alpha types, as well as the standard researcher, bookworm, nerd stereotypes.
Stuff like "pure" maidens and "chivalric" knights are kinda of absurd to the alpha quadra values, and seem false.
It's interesting how Alpha's that don't Renaissance fair assume that only Gamma's Renaissance fair; you look up Renaissance fair in the dictionary and there's a picture of the 4 gamma types for sure.
Nothing says large group time wasting like Gamma quadra.
Being democratic as a reinin dichotomy, they sure know their power tripping games as above. Be in no doubt! Nothing says Aristocratic power games like being in the Democratic reinins.
Probably...
Anyway, Aiss and Jim are both correct - Gammas do not cross dress.
About time some of you fell in love with fictional characters.
Last edited by Absurd; 05-17-2013 at 05:11 PM.
I also want to note that GRRM's books are full of food.... enough to spawn a cookbook. His writing is full of food and well "food porn".
http://www.innatthecrossroads.com/20...-ice-and-fire/
Who wants lemon cakes... ^_^
I don't know but knowing you have received your Game of Thrones character, I would say both. Anyway, looks like you're going to battle your mirror(?) hkkmr/Tyrion. Oh wait, it is already happening.
Let the Game of Thrones 16types.info edition begin...
EDIT: Checked some stuff and it seems Tyrion is GRRM's favourite character and the entire series has been somewhat inspired by Tolkien (LotR) whom GRRM read. Anyhow, Tyrion seems a bit like a hacker thrown into a "medieval" plot and power struggles between two powerful houses undressing both of them.
Last edited by Absurd; 05-17-2013 at 06:53 PM.
Doesn't change the F A C T GRRM drew inspiration from them feeling touched especially by the ending Tolkien wrote.
I'm VERY disappointed after reading you Sol. I have a VERY Absurd dilemma now and don't know what to do, and I would be VERY glad if you could shine on me the way you shine on Planet Earth making it VERY bright during day.
Last edited by Absurd; 05-17-2013 at 08:59 PM.
Considering Tolkein is the daddy of sword and sorcery, and that Tolkein drew his inspiration from Beowulf and other Nordic sagas, then they are all going to be the same -> same-ish.
Someone could draw inspiration from Celtic mythology, but it's not much different and already sort of incorporated.
That makes sense. I agree with SLE for Jamie and that Theon is probably could be IEI. Robb supervising Theon works, but I'll wait for further developments on Theon to occur (never read the book).
The thing about Tyrion... is that his hedonistic behaviour doesn't seem natural to his character. Note his tragic romantic history - he fell in love with a girl at 13, married her in secret, and Tywin had his guards rape the girl in order to teach Tyrion a lesson. Disappointed and emotionally scarred, he drowned his sorrows by indulging in the senses; never falling in love again until he met Shae, whom he remained staunchly loyal to.The thing about ILE is they don't follow, and they don't have the volition seeking super-id to go after most status positions. This is a heavy researcher type that characterizes researchers, bookworms, inventors. What ILE is mostly defined by is there unwillingness to take responsibility for things, and only grudgingly doing so for some benefit or getting left alone so they can pursue their own interests. If you offer a ILE a position of authority or responsibility, they're generally only willing to take it out of necessity and avoid them otherwise. What they really want is to be left alone to do what they want and only engage in responsibilities, authority, and human relations out of necessity. This is because and are areas of the super-ego, the mental block that governs social pressures and expectations. This is a area of pain.
LIE may in fact be a better typing for Tyrion, with Shae as ESI. He possessed a sense of decency and propriety with a moralistic slant.
If Joffrey were EIE or LSI, he would have retaliated when Tyrion slapped him. Instead, he acted like a sissy. He had a similar reaction when Arya had him on the ground with a sword (season 1).Tyrion: Before you go, you will call upon Lord and Lady Stark to offer your sympathies.
Joffrey: What good will my sympathies do?
Tyrion: None, but it is expected of you.
*Tyrion slaps Joffrey*
Tyrion: ...But first you will get to Lord and Lady Stark, and you will fall on your knees in front of them and tell them how very sorry you are; that you are at their service and that all your prayers are with them. Do you understand?
*Tyrion slaps Joffrey again*
Tyrion being chivalrous:
On another note, Ros is likely Fi-SEE.Originally Posted by Tyrion
Last edited by Zenoa; 05-19-2013 at 04:58 AM.
His hedonism is natural to his character, but so is his romanticism. ILE's are nothing if not romantics, and they're not called Don Quixote for no reason. Anyway's you don't actually know what happens further along in the book so I won't spoiled it for you. There's nothing impossible with being a hedonist and a romantic. The regard that Tyrion has for Tysha is no less than that of Don Quixote for Dulcinea.
You have not read the books or know will will happen later so I will not spoil this for you. LIE could work for Tyrion, certainly better than EIE, but Tyrion is a pretty fun loving guy and quite open with people. Tyrion's dream when he was 16 wasn't about money, power and business but exploring the free cities like his uncle Gerion.
Tyrion is also not known in the story to be a decent or moral guy, he is seen as "drunk, impertinent, thoroughly debauched,". This is important in typing because how someone is perceived is quite important to sociotype, as the type acronym such as ILE is only part of the personality. The part that's easily visible and observed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YqVifRMpDk
This doesn't mean he actually only "drunk, impertinent, thoroughly debauched,". However, this depiction is strongly communicated to the people around him and thus people see him at this way.
This "drunk, impertinent, thoroughly debauched," is Tyrion's public persona, and the image that everything that doesn't know him think of him as. Thus his ego is this, not some hidden part of him that is only privy to the watchers/readers.
Yet it's not like ILE's are described as bad people. I think Tyrion suits the descriptions below when he saved Sansa from being abused by Joffery, and other events he's taken a hand in.
Take this from ILE female description. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...NTp-by-Beskova
Or Male Description: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...NTp-by-BeskovaOriginally Posted by ILE Female
This is fairly common way to describe ILE's, as the representative archetype is Don Quixote.Originally Posted by ILE Male
EIE have unconscious weak I don't really see them as particularly brave, they do whine a lot. Also why would you think a LII wouldn't react with whining when someone hit them. ILE's and LII's are described meeting force with equal force. It is also described that ILE can often get up and stand up for a underdog when they see it, this is true for ILE and LII.
There is no way Joffery is a LSI or an introvert, like LII, he is definitely a extrovert that puts a lot of time into cultivation a image of himself which is that of a king. Mostly he's a reactive whiner with weak unconscious :s that tries to get other people to do all the real work.
djfiajsdlj;askd; k;alscmqwemdf I watched 3 seasons within 5 days
Wonder if Gammas have a lot of monies in real life....