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Thread: Good and Evil revisited

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    Default Good and Evil revisited

    Recent discussions of beta Ni as "the intent or bid to avoid negative outcomes" has led me to question what its subfunctions are. I had previously asserted that the subfunctions of Ni were processors of ethics and sanity, however after having an internal dialogue over the subject last night, it seems to me that standards of ethics and sanity cannot be totally divorced from culture: right and wrong are moral judgments we make based on agreement of personal conduct with cultural expectation, in the same way that we make judgments on "proper" vs "rude" behavior. Thus there is a matter of the individual (or culture's) tolerance for the conduct which determines whether a thing is right or wrong, and as such, right and wrong must be ethical judgments declared by alpha Fe in accordance with alpha Fe attitudes.

    Then properly, we say a person is "in the right" or "in the wrong" by their immediate behavioral choices, and "good" or "evil" as a factor of judging their motivations relative to our selected tolerance levels.

    If ethical determinations are made by alpha Fe, then how is sanity asserted vs insanity?

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    Korpsy Knievel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Recent discussions of beta Ni as "the intent or bid to avoid negative outcomes" has led me to question what its subfunctions are. I had previously asserted that the subfunctions of Ni were processors of ethics and sanity, however after having an internal dialogue over the subject last night, it seems to me that standards of ethics and sanity cannot be totally divorced from culture: right and wrong are moral judgments we make based on agreement of personal conduct with cultural expectation, in the same way that we make judgments on "proper" vs "rude" behavior. Thus there is a matter of the individual (or culture's) tolerance for the conduct which determines whether a thing is right or wrong, and as such, right and wrong must be ethical judgments declared by alpha Fe in accordance with alpha Fe attitudes.

    Then properly, we say a person is "in the right" or "in the wrong" by their immediate behavioral choices, and "good" or "evil" as a factor of judging their motivations relative to our selected tolerance levels.

    If ethical determinations are made by alpha Fe, then how is sanity asserted vs insanity?
    Easy: A sane person would be ashamed to trot out shit like this.

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    There is no such thing as good and evil. Value-based judgments are baseless at every level. Everyone is born neutral and then reciprocate the environment they were born into. Behavior works a lot like accents do (except mine of course). If you are born Italian you might say "It's a me, Mario". If you are born in Nor-Cal you might say " hella hella hella hella hella hella". If you are born in the south you might say "I'ma go get me a nigga and beat his ass". Being born/raised in a bad environment is no fault of your own as you may know, so calling someone evil when they are products of their environment is erroneous. This goes for anything from bigotry, to corruption, to serial killers.
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    Knowing how a person became fucked up doesn't change the fact they are fucked up. Do you believe there is such a thing as objectively bad music? Music has a mathematical basis. Mathematics can prove something to be flawed or coherent. I believe if you had a way of writing a script of music as an equation, and you wrote out some Kesha and compared it with Nirvana.. Kesha would be a mathematical flaw and Nirvana would be mathematical perfection. So if art has a mathematical basis, isn't it possible everything has a mathematical basis? And then why is good and evil any different? On top of that even if good and evil had no universal basis (which I think it does), the subjective experience of it still exists (and that experience is very real).

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    MOVE! Cause this is Ke$ha!

    Yes the mathematical basis you are referring to is the Healthy/Unhealthy scale (which is synonymous with the scale of Good/Evil). Health of course refers to the combination of Physical/Spiritual/Mental/Emotional healths.

    Yes evil still exists in their actions, but to cast the evilness blame on them is to add insult to injury. No one creates themselves to be unhealthy or evil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    MOVE! Cause this is Ke$ha!

    Yes the mathematical basis you are referring to is the Healthy/Unhealthy scale (which is synonymous with the scale of Good/Evil). Health of course refers to the combination of Physical/Spiritual/Mental/Emotional healths.

    Yes evil still exists in their actions, but to cast the evilness blame on them is to add insult to injury. No one creates themselves to be unhealthy or evil.
    At what point does a person have to take personal responsibility and transcend their circumstances?.. no longer be determined by them? Criminal persecution is typically (when it is well applied) an issue of practicality more than punishment. Evil is just a word, and blame is just identifying the problem. But also remember that circumstances are only half the equation. There are inherent qualities of people. Some things are born healthy and others are genetically mutated..

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    This thread is lol. I'm beginning to have second thoughts about these forums. -.-

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    Le roi internet Bluenoir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    There is no such thing as good and evil. Value-based judgments are baseless at every level. Everyone is born neutral and then reciprocate the environment they were born into. Behavior works a lot like accents do (except mine of course). If you are born Italian you might say "It's a me, Mario". If you are born in Nor-Cal you might say " hella hella hella hella hella hella". If you are born in the south you might say "I'ma go get me a nigga and beat his ass". Being born/raised in a bad environment is no fault of your own as you may know, so calling someone evil when they are products of their environment is erroneous. This goes for anything from bigotry, to corruption, to serial killers.
    I don't agree people are born "blank state", but I by no means purport genetic determinism. What you seem to not be taking into account the deliberate nature of intentionally "malevolent" actions done by people.

    I agree that environment has a tremendous influence on the psychology/vaules and judgements of an individual, but I still see people as individuals accountable for deliberate intentions. This is by no means a black and white good/evil idea of accountability though.

    I can't accept the idea of "society" made them do it.

    No one creates themselves to be unhealthy or evil
    Not true. People do do things purely for the sake of hurting others. We've had several stabbings in Melbourne that were commited just beacuse. Are you saying that these people (The perpetrators of random violence) are mere products, holding no actual acountability for what they have done?
    Last edited by Bluenoir; 04-25-2011 at 07:31 AM.
    The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.

    Chapter 14, Verse 9.
    The Bhagavad Gita

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    What else drives people to commit (violent) crimes other than societal or socioeconomic conditions?
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    What else drives people to commit (violent) crimes other than societal or socioeconomic conditions?
    Human emotion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    What else drives people to commit (violent) crimes other than societal or socioeconomic conditions?
    I never said the mentioned things are not variables. However I don't believe in the environmental determinism you seem to imply.

    Of course it's very neuance, but regardless of what motivated an action of a person, the person still made a cognitive decision to commit whatever the action may be.

    Provided the perpetrator is sane, they are at fault. Regardless of what societal condition motivated them.

    A random stabbing of an Indian student was not commited because the perpetrator was "compelled" by his racism that was installed on him. The perpetrator stabbed the student (whilst motivated by installed racism) beacuse the perpetrator chose to do so.
    The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.

    Chapter 14, Verse 9.
    The Bhagavad Gita

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    I dont understand where you pull Alpha - Fe from. That would be nice for you to clarify exactly why it must be Alpha - Fe.

    I feel the litmus test to determine good and evil is taught to us by our parents behavior. If we dont like what they do, their actions shape us in a direction that ends up with our opinions being formed one way. If we feel safe and comfortable with their actions, i believe we re-affirm their principles, or at the least try to get to the same result through our own principles.

    My mom has super strong Fi, and i think that had a HUGE impact on my individual notion of right and wrong. Even if i disagree with her on what, specifically, is right or wrong - the criteria to be considered is in big part to what i was raised around by my parent even more-so than my society.

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    Oh and as to the Nurture v. Nature discussion going on -

    The two are so intertwined that you can't tell where one starts and another begins. Did ****** become ****** because of the conditions of his life, or did he become ****** because of who he was as a person. We can't tell. All we know is that - He was a person and he had conditions in his life, and by the end of it he was who he became.

    Nurture and Nature is a constant dynamic, i don't think you can separate the two without completely missing the point.

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    Nature determines the attitude relative to others' attitudes towards the same thing. That's all that matters.

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