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Thread: Do ENFps and INFjs need a "benevolent taskmaster"?

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    Default Do ENFps and INFjs need a "benevolent taskmaster"?

    Ok so this is a recurring theme, and it's something I'd like to talk about seriously. I'm not trying to be 'macho' or trying to belittle delta NFs here - I want to have an open dialogue about something.

    (FYI I will define taskmaster in the following way: "someone who imposes hard or continuous work" is a starting point, but more so, wanting someone like that in your life and the relationship you have with that kind of person. I'm not talking about a mega jerk "boss" type person, but more like "and administrator" of some sort, that is very upfront about goals, production, regulation, etc)



    My first real experience with what I'd like to describe was with a delta NF friend. She was an EII. And she was strong and independent and all that. She was well educated and professional. But, over time, she revealed that she was 'needy' in certain ways, and it had to do with addressing certain issues in her life. I remember essentially being asked to holder her hand and calm her down when she was starting a project that was difficult or stressful. And I remember her calling me on the phone more than once to talk about something chaotic in her life and figure out how to proceed forward.

    You could say "weak Se and weak Te".

    But furthermore, with this person and with others, with both types of NFs, there is this sort of very strong sense of desiring for a 'benevolent taskmaster', and at times almost a refusal to acknowledge it. It depends a lot on the NFs disposition of 'accepting help" from other people or their appearance of being needy.

    I'm not really interested in 'arguing' about whether or not it's there, or the right semantics to address it. But I am interested in finding out// discussing what works for delta NFs.



    Some questions to consider


    • What kind of relationship level/closeness do you prefer for someone being a 'taskmaster' with you?
    • In very close / intimate relationships, have you had someone play the role of taskmaster? If yes, how did that go? If not, would you prefer someone like that? Why / why not?
    • Describe what it is like to either 'rely on' or 'appreciate' other people being a taskmaster in your life. How does it help or benefit you? How does it bother you?
    • How does someone being a taskmaster affect your sense of well being?
    • What are common situations that come up that you feel either like you'd prefer to have a taskmaster in your life to help deal with OR you have learned about how to deal with on your own?
    • Do you associate "taskmaster" with someone having an interest in your life? Or concern for your well being? Do you feel like something is wrong or missing or you're not being helped in an important way if someone isn't like that in your life?
    • Do you have any general advice "for" the taskmaster? Things you like or don't like that they do?
    • What has worked for you, personally, to grow and become better at being productive? (This is just about you, and not necessarily about a taskmaster or its influence)



    That's a good starting point.
    More to come.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

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    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    I appreciate the spirit of the post... even if I'm tentatively confused on Delta NF etc.. As you know, I've expressed my bewilderment at some issues raised about this, so I'll just offer my own 2c.

    I don't like taskmasters. I may spot an authority due to the talents and aid they can give, and choose them on my own, but I still need my space with them. When it comes to unsolicited and/or imposed authority, I'm stubborn or going to blow up even. Not so much nowadays, but it's in my history, I mean. And when it wasn't in my power to completely defy one, I was willing to suffer and take their abuse. For example, I remember this coach who got on my case about not wearing the right gym shorts in class. He even called the shorts I was wearing "gay", just to try to get a rise out of me and change my mind that way. As punishment, he made me run laps outside on the track until I decided to wear those shorts. I never did. I ran every gym glass for the entire semester. I never participated in anything. In my mind, it was the only way to convey that I didn't respect his position or rules. It may not make sense from the outside, but it does to me.

    Anyways.. I'm just using that story about what I'm like in general. I was 12 when that happened. I've never done well with it. Perhaps I shoot myself in the foot for it, but people aren't going to make me budge about things any more than an ISTp. There has to be recognition of talent, trust, respect.. all of those little intangibles that make a taskmaster/pupil arrangement a working one. I don't like it or need it just for the sake of it. And anyone who assumes it is an enemy. And if this isn't typical of Delta NFs, then whatever. I'm happy to be retyped then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by straytk View Post
    I appreciate the spirit of the post... even if I'm tentatively confused on Delta NF etc.. As you know, I've expressed my bewilderment at some issues raised about this, so I'll just offer my own 2c.

    I don't like taskmasters. I may spot an authority due to the talents and aid they can give, and choose them on my own, but I still need my space with them. When it comes to unsolicited and/or imposed authority, I'm stubborn or going to blow up even. Not so much nowadays, but it's in my history, I mean. And when it wasn't in my power to completely defy one, I was willing to suffer and take their abuse. For example, I remember this coach who got on my case about not wearing the right gym shorts in class. He even called the shorts I was wearing "gay", just to try to get a rise out of me and change my mind that way. As punishment, he made me run laps outside on the track until I decided to wear those shorts. I never did. I ran every gym glass for the entire semester. I never participated in anything. In my mind, it was the only way to convey that I didn't respect his position or rules. It may not make sense from the outside, but it does to me.
    For the record, that's pretty much an entirely different topic than what I was getting at. I wouldn't call that person a task master as it has little to do with assisting or encouraging (or even demanding) anything to do with productivity.... it's someone abusing power and being mean to you.


    Anyways.. I'm just using that story about what I'm like in general. I was 12 when that happened. I've never done well with it. Perhaps I shoot myself in the foot for it, but people aren't going to make me budge about things any more than an ISTp. There has to be recognition of talent, trust, respect.. all of those little intangibles that make a taskmaster/pupil arrangement a working one. I don't like it or need it just for the sake of it. And anyone who assumes it is an enemy. And if this isn't typical of Delta NFs, then whatever. I'm happy to be retyped then.
    For what it's worth, I don't think anyone would enjoy that kind of treatment, so I don't think it's significant in terms of typing.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    for the record....


    Quote Originally Posted by straytk View Post
    I appreciate the spirit of the post...

    Maybe another reason I'm not 'offended' by the opening post is because I have had my own moments of weakness, and I don't see it as a problem or something to be ashamed of. The EII I mentioned in the OP, that's not how she functions all the time - she's not a helpless ninny. But it happens. Just like I've gotten super stressed out with family and other relationships because I don't understand them. I've cried more in front of one of my closest delta NF friends than she infront of me, because she's supported me through extremely unpleasant emotional situations, ones where I was totally weak and unsure of how to do anything. Does this mean I support stereotypes that LSE are emotionally shallow and can't function in that regard? No. But it happens in real life sometimes.

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    From personal experience I've found that if someone tells me I 'should' do something in a certain way, or certain time, I won't, simply because they said I 'should'. However if they ask the same question but frame it differently ie 'Have you tried doing it this way/this time before?" then pretty much I straight away think "Ohh a new way to do something, lets see how this works out!" Also subtly planting 'seeds' of ideas and allowing NF's to figure out the big picture seems to get them more driven.
    I guess what I'm getting to is my idea of a 'taskmaster' would be more someone who sort of sits back and suggests things, rather than straight out declares something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaTim View Post
    From personal experience I've found that if someone tells me I 'should' do something in a certain way, or certain time, I won't, simply because they said I 'should'. However if they ask the same question but frame it differently ie 'Have you tried doing it this way/this time before?" then pretty much I straight away think "Ohh a new way to do something, lets see how this works out!" Also subtly planting 'seeds' of ideas and allowing NF's to figure out the big picture seems to get them more driven.
    I guess what I'm getting to is my idea of a 'taskmaster' would be more someone who sort of sits back and suggests things, rather than straight out declares something.

    I think that can be a very useful post for me.

    And more or less the type of things I was hoping people would address, in general. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaTim View Post
    From personal experience I've found that if someone tells me I 'should' do something in a certain way, or certain time, I won't, simply because they said I 'should'. However if they ask the same question but frame it differently ie 'Have you tried doing it this way/this time before?" then pretty much I straight away think "Ohh a new way to do something, lets see how this works out!" Also subtly planting 'seeds' of ideas and allowing NF's to figure out the big picture seems to get them more driven.
    I guess what I'm getting to is my idea of a 'taskmaster' would be more someone who sort of sits back and suggests things, rather than straight out declares something.
    Yeah thanks for mentioning this. I relate quite a bit. And for example if i were going to do something, and then someone commands me to "DO [IT]!" it makes me especially mad because now that i've been commanded, i'm not going to do it, even though i really wanted to. I feel like this sort of takes away from my own initiative, and it's a real bummer for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Yeah thanks for mentioning this. I relate quite a bit. And for example if i were going to do something, and then someone commands me to "DO [IT]!" it makes me especially mad because now that i've been commanded, i'm not going to do it, even though i really wanted to. I feel like this sort of takes away from my own initiative, and it's a real bummer for me.
    Yea that applies to me alot also as well, even though it may be somethin I have been dying to do for ages, as soon as someone tells me I should do it, or worse, that I 'have' to do it, then I lose all interest and feel sort of cheated out of a good experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaTim View Post
    From personal experience I've found that if someone tells me I 'should' do something in a certain way, or certain time, I won't, simply because they said I 'should'. However if they ask the same question but frame it differently ie 'Have you tried doing it this way/this time before?" then pretty much I straight away think "Ohh a new way to do something, lets see how this works out!" Also subtly planting 'seeds' of ideas and allowing NF's to figure out the big picture seems to get them more driven.
    I guess what I'm getting to is my idea of a 'taskmaster' would be more someone who sort of sits back and suggests things, rather than straight out declares something.
    That sounds like me exactly as well as what workaholics said! As soon as I feel something's an order or demand it changes my whole mind on doing that task even when I've made plans to do it. It takes the fun out of it for me, where I feel I'm no longer doing it cos I want, but because I've been told to...even if I would technically still be doing it for me. So simple suggestions work a lot better or even people saying things like " I would really like..." and then I'd be all for doing it in order to please that person and complete the task. It's all about how things are asked.
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    So if 'orders' are responded to poorly.... what is responded to 'well' ?

    Requests?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post

    • What kind of relationship level/closeness do you prefer for someone being a 'taskmaster' with you?
    • I wouldn't mind being the employee of my husband. I find that I work very well in a couple situation, at work. We can not only get along well, having to deal with work related issues, but also plan to do things after work as an extension or a continuation of our lives...I like it to mix together. My dual cousin has expressed blatant disinterest in working with her spouse. I've had to remind her often that I'm not the same type as he is.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
      In very close / intimate relationships, have you had someone play the role of taskmaster? If yes, how did that go? If not, would you prefer someone like that? Why / why not?
      Yes, my SLI X was "the taskmaster"; I couldn't work with him well, because his suggestive Te was like "here you do ALL this work" and I was like "no, I can't, I don't have that kind of energy" and he was like "what do you do all day...oh wow, you did those few things and that's it?" me, "yes, I have low energy and drive, what I did, I did very well." Him, "you should do more..increasingly more." Me, "no, you do them."....

      The relationship didn't work out very well.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
      Describe what it is like to either 'rely on' or 'appreciate' other people being a taskmaster in your life. How does it help or benefit you? How does it bother you?
      I do love and appreciate watching my duals work and helping in any way I can. They are the big doers who extend consistent energy and drive and I'm a little doer, but what I do, I do very very well. So I hope they appreciate me. I know my cousin appreciates what I do for her. It's a good team when the energy is right/balanced. When the energy isn't balanced and you have to cover for the other person by doing a lot more, than it becomes very difficult and stressful.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
      How does someone being a taskmaster affect your sense of well being?
      I appreciate task-masters and I think it improves my overall sense of well being, because it ensures me that there's team work, and any good combination of teamwork is stressless and easy.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
      What are common situations that come up that you feel either like you'd prefer to have a taskmaster in your life to help deal with OR you have learned about how to deal with on your own?
      Easy, I want help with organization, of my books, in any arrangement of things in efficient order, like a nice spreadsheet...I would love to do the actually detailed work but once the structure is set, I'm all go.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
      Do you associate "taskmaster" with someone having an interest in your life? Or concern for your well being? Do you feel like something is wrong or missing or you're not being helped in an important way if someone isn't like that in your life?
      No. I associate it with teamwork and not some sort of hierarchy. A taskmaster is only someone who can structure things more efficiently. Since I can't do that, I appreciate the assistance of someone better, but in no way does that make me or should that make me feel inferior in a relationship.

      I don't appreciate other relationship dynamics as my task masters, because they expect things from me that I can't do naturally, like my LSI boss and I are really hard to work with each other. He manages ever little detail, bending over to pick up pennies at the cost of bigger amounts, but because he is PoLR, I have to try extra hard to explain to him that some things he has to relinquish control if he's going to save money rather than spend more money to make very little money. I don't want him as my task master; there's no methodology to his approach, it's sudden, impulsive, driven by Se and very very frustrating. His short sightedness (losing dollars bending over to pick up pennies - driven by immediate tasks resulting from immediate sensory reaction) and disinterest in planning causes him to take inefficient actions.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
      Do you have any general advice "for" the taskmaster? Things you like or don't like that they do?
      keep making my life efficient. in every way.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
      What has worked for you, personally, to grow and become better at being productive? (This is just about you, and not necessarily about a taskmaster or its influence)
    Having my dual cousin. Who says to me, "find a place for things and keep them there; that will decrease your energy and make routines, and increase efficiency." She saved me a lot of energy and the energy saving caused me to be more productive in other areas of my life as well as allowing me to be less stressed/distracted/consumed resulting from inability to manage my affairs and inability to manage Si things.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 03-26-2011 at 04:48 PM.
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    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    They want someone to tell them how and when to do things, and preferably to show them how and do it for them in many situations where they find themselves confused at actually doing something. I've seen this with INFJ but with ENFP it seems to be something more prevalent on a one-on-one level, because in group settings they like to have a sort of strange psychological dominance so they hide this side of theirs, except from their companion ST, for this person they manifest it openly even in groups.

    Delta NFs are not to be understood using logics or something like that, imo you got to understand them using heart and intuition, which is for me, hard to do. But they're very beautiful and nice flowers of life, usually with good intentions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Air View Post
    They want someone to tell them how and when to do things, and preferably to show them how and do it for them in many situations where they find themselves confused at actually doing something. I've seen this with INFJ but with ENFP it seems to be something more prevalent on a one-on-one level, because in group settings they like to have a sort of strange psychological dominance so they hide this side of theirs, except from their companion ST, for this person they manifest it openly even in groups.

    Delta NFs are not to be understood using logics or something like that, imo you got to understand them using heart and intuition, which is for me, hard to do. But they're very beautiful and nice flowers of life, usually with good intentions.
    No, we can't observe action and factor that into efficiency, to reduce steps from point a to point b. managing time, making time, that is objective an efficient resource. I have found that ENFp's with their activated Te, can be very good at organizing, not very interested in Si though, they aren't as clean/neat as I am. They are great at planing.

    Thank you...I do love being called a flower.
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    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    I think anyone who wanted to learn about EII's relationship to taskmasters, then they should read Jane Eyre. Despite being a guy, I think it's a good book.

    IEE is the real Don Quixote, if you ask me. Written by an EII. Not an LII. What a joke.

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    I've read the book, and I definitely see Jane as an EII (Fi subtype, E9 and E1 elements galore). But what are you referring to when you say "taskmaster" ?

    Are you talking about people who impose rules and regulations?
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    @thread buhhhhh

    I don't think anybody likes it when work is imposed upon them and they aren't willing to do it. I mean, I really do like it when the other person knows what he wants in life, but for him to impose that desire upon me when I have no interest in the direction he wants to go in sounds miserable. That just sounds like a somewhat unhealthy version of my dad, who liked to impose his own work upon my brother and me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    @thread buhhhhh

    I don't think anybody likes it when work is imposed upon them and they aren't willing to do it. I mean, I really do like it when the other person knows what he wants in life, but for him to impose that desire upon me when I have no interest in the direction he wants to go in sounds miserable. That just sounds like a somewhat unhealthy version of my dad, who liked to impose his own work upon my brother and me.

    Yeah I don't like taskmasters and I wouldn't be comfortable or stay in a relationship that involved someone imposing work upon me.

    I could work with my husband but I wouldn't let him be my "taskmaster". We'd be an equal team or we wouldn't be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    I could work with my husband but I wouldn't let him be my "taskmaster". We'd be an equal team or we wouldn't be.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    @thread buhhhhh

    I don't think anybody likes it when work is imposed upon them and they aren't willing to do it. I mean, I really do like it when the other person knows what he wants in life, but for him to impose that desire upon me when I have no interest in the direction he wants to go in sounds miserable. That just sounds like a somewhat unhealthy version of my dad, who liked to impose his own work upon my brother and me.
    Same. It even sounds miserable to impose a desire, strategy, etc. on me when I want to go in that direction.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post

    But furthermore, with this person and with others, with both types of NFs, there is this sort of very strong sense of desiring for a 'benevolent taskmaster', and at times almost a refusal to acknowledge it.
    I honestly don't think there is such sense.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
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    I like knowing what I'm supposed to do, what my role is. And for my area of "assigned" work I like knowing why it's there and why it should be done. If there is a needed sequence, I like knowing that, too. (I recently had a work-related experience where this was an issue and I had to "push" to get it resolved.)

    If someone just willy-nilly comes along and starts telling me how to do things, especially if they have no involvement in the project/situation (or no right to insert their will), I will tend to... resist that.

    If I invite your opinion, and you're not already a part of the situation, that's different. It's my choice, in that case, to invite external influence.

    In general, I'd say it's less about telling me what to do and more about bringing clarity.

    If something important is going on, or if there's a feeling that I need to be involved somehow, ambiguity in terms of what's happening, why, and what I should be doing can really bother me and throw me off balance. If I can't provide my own clarity then, yes, I will seek it from others, particularly those who I feel are capable or responsible.

    Again, being "upfront about goals, production, regulation, etc" or "telling me what to do" helps me most when it's in the context of providing me with information I can use to make my own decisions and not when it's about controlling me.


    So, I guess, if you mean by "task master" that this other person is helping master the tasks (helping with figuring out the what, when, where, how, why) as opposed to trying to be master of me - then, yes, that' is something I will often appreciate when in an ambiguous situation.
    Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.

  22. #22
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Usually, my duals don't like it when i push for my own will and set my own agenda. I don't mind giving up control of these things to them.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  23. #23
    you can go to where your heart is Galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Usually, my duals don't like it when i push for my own will and set my own agenda. I don't mind giving up control of these things to them.
    Then your duals are arrogant and selfish.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Then your duals are arrogant and selfish.
    Yes, most are and that's why they call them controlling.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    aka Slacker Slacker's Avatar
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    That might be true of Maritsa's duals, we'll have to ask discojoe to be sure, but the LSEs I know respect people who set their own agendas and take control of their own work and have self-initiative and all that neat stuff.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Usually, my duals don't like it when i push for my own will and set my own agenda. I don't mind giving up control of these things to them.
    Perhaps the men you go for don't like that, but this is not true for LSEs. My mother and my dissertation advisors are LSEs and they both let me set my own agenda and work at my pace. They are always available when I need advice and help, but they do not assume control.

    LSEs really have a strange reputation around here.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    So fluffeh. Cuddly McFluffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Ok so this is a recurring theme, and it's something I'd like to talk about seriously. I'm not trying to be 'macho' or trying to belittle delta NFs here - I want to have an open dialogue about something.

    (FYI I will define taskmaster in the following way: "someone who imposes hard or continuous work" is a starting point, but more so, wanting someone like that in your life and the relationship you have with that kind of person. I'm not talking about a mega jerk "boss" type person, but more like "and administrator" of some sort, that is very upfront about goals, production, regulation, etc)



    My first real experience with what I'd like to describe was with a delta NF friend. She was an EII. And she was strong and independent and all that. She was well educated and professional. But, over time, she revealed that she was 'needy' in certain ways, and it had to do with addressing certain issues in her life. I remember essentially being asked to holder her hand and calm her down when she was starting a project that was difficult or stressful. And I remember her calling me on the phone more than once to talk about something chaotic in her life and figure out how to proceed forward.

    You could say "weak Se and weak Te".

    But furthermore, with this person and with others, with both types of NFs, there is this sort of very strong sense of desiring for a 'benevolent taskmaster', and at times almost a refusal to acknowledge it. It depends a lot on the NFs disposition of 'accepting help" from other people or their appearance of being needy.

    I'm not really interested in 'arguing' about whether or not it's there, or the right semantics to address it. But I am interested in finding out// discussing what works for delta NFs.



    Some questions to consider


    • What kind of relationship level/closeness do you prefer for someone being a 'taskmaster' with you?
    • In very close / intimate relationships, have you had someone play the role of taskmaster? If yes, how did that go? If not, would you prefer someone like that? Why / why not?
    • Describe what it is like to either 'rely on' or 'appreciate' other people being a taskmaster in your life. How does it help or benefit you? How does it bother you?
    • How does someone being a taskmaster affect your sense of well being?
    • What are common situations that come up that you feel either like you'd prefer to have a taskmaster in your life to help deal with OR you have learned about how to deal with on your own?
    • Do you associate "taskmaster" with someone having an interest in your life? Or concern for your well being? Do you feel like something is wrong or missing or you're not being helped in an important way if someone isn't like that in your life?
    • Do you have any general advice "for" the taskmaster? Things you like or don't like that they do?
    • What has worked for you, personally, to grow and become better at being productive? (This is just about you, and not necessarily about a taskmaster or its influence)



    That's a good starting point.
    More to come.
    Hmm. I can think of a couple of people like this, and I admire that quality in them; they expect the best and push for it. I don't know that I would want to live with that kind of person, though, not if it extends to every area of their life. Neither would I appreciate someone who constantly dropped tasks on me or always expected me to be doing something "productive". Then again, I have a different view of what that word means (doing stuff like housework). I am most appreciative of emotional support, but I don't equate that with a "taskmaster".
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

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  28. #28
    No Longer a Tadpole... Flat Footed Frog's Avatar
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    Hi, i realise this thread is a bit old, but was just reading through and found it interesting and relevant to me.

    I think im IEE (ENFp), and this whole thing really clicked.

    So am i to understand, Delta NF's hate being told what to do by people that are particularly not their duals, especially if they feel an unfair amount of work is handed to them? Also that a dual pairing in this relationship is one where the Delta NF needs help with structure and organisation especially to do with thoughts, processes, etc? But they dislike being seen as needy or asking help from those they are not yet at a level they feel they can with (so it end up usually beiing other NF's theyll ask or very close friends etc) as they like to be seen as strong, self sufficient and independent?

    i noticed this whole thread got way off topic and thought id try bring it back lol cos it was interestign to read!
    This Frog runs on Sugar!

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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flat Footed Frog View Post
    Hi, i realise this thread is a bit old, but was just reading through and found it interesting and relevant to me.

    I think im IEE (ENFp), and this whole thing really clicked.

    So am i to understand, Delta NF's hate being told what to do by people that are particularly not their duals, especially if they feel an unfair amount of work is handed to them? Also that a dual pairing in this relationship is one where the Delta NF needs help with structure and organisation especially to do with thoughts, processes, etc? But they dislike being seen as needy or asking help from those they are not yet at a level they feel they can with (so it end up usually beiing other NF's theyll ask or very close friends etc) as they like to be seen as strong, self sufficient and independent?

    i noticed this whole thread got way off topic and thought id try bring it back lol cos it was interestign to read!
    Yeah the way I understand it is, delta NFs are more likely to be ok with "bossing around" the way a delta ST would do it (if they are being themselves), probably most receptive to the way a dual would. And if the delta NF ISN"T ok with it, the delta ST is more likely to be ok with or understanding of delta-NF style criticism. And vice versa.

    I certainly incorporate Fi-related information that I keep on people, into my decisions regarding whether I will ask those people for help/advice/opinions on anything. That's for sure. However, if i am in need of help and someone graciously steps in to help me, that's a good way to make friends with me.
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

  30. #30
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    This is sort of a techinical and slightly 'elementally stereptypical' post:


    At it's core, what I said (or tried to say) has to do with Te and Se, in my opinion. Appreciating someone with strong Te in the ego (particularly for an IEE it would be Te creative, which is more "you should do things this way" than "here let me help you do this" which is Si creative, and sometimes makes IEEs feel more weirded out).

    Se because it has to do with the drive to get something done or get something completed. Even to the point of not being distracted, or caught up in other emotional things, or whatever. So, strong, but not valued Se. The more Se is appeared to be valued, the more stress that can put on the situation - the more it will feel like coercion, especially if the 'pressure' is undesired it essentially any way.


    Another way of saying it is that someone who is 'on top of their game' in terms of getting things done and being able to maintain "the means of production" (an economics term but in this case I mean more or less how things get produced, from actual data, to how to do something, to the time to do it, to logistical remarks and awareness of its completion) - might be useful or appealing to a delta NF.


    I had hoped that people would discuss how that works out, and shortcomings of it, and even what is too much vs enough vs not enough. I don't think "DELTA NFS NEED DELTA STS TO FUNCTION", that's not what this is about. I brought this up because I was interested in trying to understand the best way to relate to a delta NF in this regard and I wasn't completely confident about knowing how to do it.

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