Examples of Ti and Ne PoLRs

[meatburger]

Ti Polr:

So i have decided to do philosophy to see what its all about at uni. We have been discussing the design argument. I wont go into the details of the arguments, but i found myself easily able to understand the concepts. From the first lecture i could guess where everything would end up and many of the possible arguments etc. Today in my tutorial the teacher was explaining it to everyone, and i was giving input and getting the correct answers etc. At the end of the lesson he gave us our worksheets and some questions we need to fill out. The questions specified using Logic and inference etc. I went to fill them out and my thoughts would not come together. I liken it to having something on the tip of your tounge but you cant say it. Anyway i ended up writing semi coherent / semi illogical stuff on my paper.

This put me in a bit of a bad and sad mood. It seems that the general concept is there and even basicl logic is there, but putting it on paper isn't.

I suppose thats life. Philosophy is a and thing. I just hope i can get through with general concepts


Ne Polr / supervision conversation between me and my ISFj mum:

"Hey mum i have been reading about this guy that hijacked a bus in Rio De Janeiro"
"oh thats terrible"
"Yeah. He didn't have a father, his mother was killed infront of him as a kid and he was beaten as a street kid by police"
"That doesn't excuse what he did"
"But mum you have to understand that his actions were due to how traumatic his life has been"
"He could choose to be nice if he wanted too"
"No your just not getting it. You were brought up in a perfectly happy environment and thats largely why your nice. If you hadn't been loved when you were younger you could be the one on the bus etc..."

Anyway after a bit more of that i decided i was being mean and stopped

[Kristiina]

Ne PoLR example in ISTjs
"When I listen to a theory, it all makes sense. It's very simple for me and it's interesting. I feel like I have all the information that I need, but then someone else asks a question and I think - Why didn't I think of that?! - because it makes sense. It's a justified question and I think I should have been able to come up with the same question. "

Meaty, the Ne PoLR you talked about is partly just Se/Ni preference. It's the end result that matters. The guy didn't grow up to be a bus hijacker, he just constantly kept making decisions that took him closer to his inevitable end. He could have harvested it all by writing a book about his life and getting rich. I feel reluctant to say that there would be anyone who ended up in a place in life, where they didn't go themselves. As if it was his inevitable destiny to be a crook. Unless there really is such a thing as inevitable destiny, it was his own free will that got him there. I agree with your mum.

EDIT: few people are unbelievably lucky and don't have to decide anything - they are just born into a perfect environment. Other people have been born into a horrible environment. But a guy who hijacks a bus in Rio de Janeiro still made a bad decision! I excuse the people in bad African countries who are born with a gun in their hand, et cetera. But I'm just mad at the majority of people who think that life leads people into the future and ignore all their own choices and responsibilities.

[meatburger]

Meaty, the Ne PoLR you talked about is partly just Se/Ni preference. It's the end result that matters. The guy didn't grow up to be a bus hijacker, he just constantly kept making decisions that took him closer to his inevitable end. He could have harvested it all by writing a book about his life and getting rich. I feel reluctant to say that there would be anyone who ended up in a place in life, where they didn't go themselves. As if it was his inevitable destiny to be a crook. Unless there really is such a thing as inevitable destiny, it was his own free will that got him there. I agree with your mum.

Yeah i know what your saying. I think the supervision is happening because i understand all that and agree with that to an extent. I think your both missing an important peice of the puzzle. Compassion and understanding of why he is more likely to do something like this than you and me. He has had a far harder road than we have.

I agree that what he did was wrong, but i think it just frustrated me that someone with so much could not also feel sorry for him.

[Rick]

Ne Polr / supervision conversation between me and my ISFj mum:

"Hey mum i have been reading about this guy that hijacked a bus in Rio De Janeiro"
"oh thats terrible"
"Yeah. He didn't have a father, his mother was killed infront of him as a kid and he was beaten as a street kid by police"
"That doesn't excuse what he did"
"But mum you have to understand that his actions were due to how traumatic his life has been"
"He could choose to be nice if he wanted too"
"No your just not getting it. You were brought up in a perfectly happy environment and thats largely why your nice. If you hadn't been loved when you were younger you could be the one on the bus etc..."

Anyway after a bit more of that i decided i was being mean and stopped

I know a IEE + ESI daughter-mother combination among my relatives, and that's exactly the type of conversations they inevitably drift to. The conversations are about people, and the IEE always tries to show objective factors that shaped the person's personality and character, and the ESI always tries to say that the person should be different because that behavior is incorrect, bad, immoral, etc. Every single time, for decades.

[Rick]

I suppose thats life. Philosophy is a and thing. I just hope i can get through with general concepts

I have had the same "problem." I've always felt that philosophy was the "key." But as soon as you start studying it, your eyelids grow heavy and you feel like going to play frisbee or something. Since then I've realized that what you're talking about is actually only academic philosophy, or philosophy as an academic subject. Actual philosophers can be and are people of all different types. They write or perform or sell art or whatever and influence people's ideas about life and the nature of things. Philosophy is a very broad subject that covers all areas of life. But the real philosophy is then studied by academics, who sell the study of philosophy as "philosophy" itself. It's like studying business rather than doing business. Where will you meet more real businessmen?

Right now there is philosophy happening around us in healthcare, lifestyle, culture, business, politics, ecology, and family relationships. Each area has its spokesmen who are influencing the way we think about things. Several decades from now, their words and work will be analyzed and broken down by academics, translated into + formulations, and put into dry, boring textbooks. That's the philosophy they teach you in school.

[meatburger]

Thanks Rick you made me feel better.

Funnily enough while i was writing i was thinking "Oh shit this is gonna slap my POLR in a massive way"

I think its better that i know that its my Weakness then i can soothe myself

I know a IEE + ESI daughter-mother combination among my relatives, and that's exactly the type of conversations they inevitably drift to. The conversations are about people, and the IEE always tries to show objective factors that shaped the person's personality and character, and the ESI always tries to say that the person should be different because that behavior is incorrect, bad, immoral, etc. Every single time, for decades.

Haha yeah. Luckily my mother and i dont talk about these kind of things much at all. If two people dont see eye to eye no point going on about it. Thats one good thing about socionics. I realised what was happening and i stopped it since its pointless.

[Rick]

I know a IEE + ESI daughter-mother combination among my relatives, and that's exactly the type of conversations they inevitably drift to. The conversations are about people, and the IEE always tries to show objective factors that shaped the person's personality and character, and the ESI always tries to say that the person should be different because that behavior is incorrect, bad, immoral, etc. Every single time, for decades.

Haha yeah. Luckily my mother and i dont talk about these kind of things much at all. If two people dont see eye to eye no point going on about it. Thats one good thing about socionics. I realised what was happening and i stopped it since its pointless.

I agree. I also stopped a lot of useless behavior when I learned about socionics.

[implied]

Ne Polr / supervision conversation between me and my ISFj mum:

"Hey mum i have been reading about this guy that hijacked a bus in Rio De Janeiro"
"oh thats terrible"
"Yeah. He didn't have a father, his mother was killed infront of him as a kid and he was beaten as a street kid by police"
"That doesn't excuse what he did"
"But mum you have to understand that his actions were due to how traumatic his life has been"
"He could choose to be nice if he wanted too"
"No your just not getting it. You were brought up in a perfectly happy environment and thats largely why your nice. If you hadn't been loved when you were younger you could be the one on the bus etc..."

Anyway after a bit more of that i decided i was being mean and stopped

begin rant


i get the general gist of this about ISFjs and i have heard similar comments from my dad's ex-wife. and i see why people don't like it (very uncompromising,) but god i really wish more people were like this in a way. if someone stabs me because i vaguely remind them of some ex-girlfriend they had once upon a time or of their abusive parent, i assure you i am not going to be happy about it or willing to accept "he had a rough childhood." as an answer.

i really miss the "no excuses" sort of thing and wish people had been like this with me growing up. like i could use less or something, because i would be too sympathetic and like, "aw, he had a tough life." when it seems like ultimately it just winds up being some excuse to shit on people. and have i ever had a mess in this arena.

like you always hear about serial killers and the "tough lives" they had growing up. awesome. let's let them run free. we'll see how understanding and empathetic we can all be then. ugh.

end rant


on a side note, is it that much better with ISTps/ESTjs? they can be pretty fixed in their decisions/opinions, as well, i hear.

and here we go with the . sorry if that sounded too aggressive or if i misunderstood. (; hah. apologies for thread hijackery as well.

[Expat]

@implied: I was thinking the same as you, basically

I think that dialogue was a bit extreme; I sure don't think that ISFjs have difficulty understanding or feeling sorry for other people generally; it's rather that beyond a certain point, their tells them that "for a few things there are no justifications".

This illustrates well the differences between Gamma "evil must be punished" and Delta "let's be understanding".

[implied]

their tells them that "for a few things there are no justifications".

This illustrates well the differences between Gamma "evil must be punished" and Delta "let's be understanding".

exactly.


i find ISFjs to be pretty tolerant? like i wouldn't be as tolerant of me as they are, which is why i like them, i guess. they make me want to be a better person.

and just echoing what expat said:

gamma does take an extreme like that. "evil must be punished." is an excellent way of putting it. like if you want to see gamma in action, it comes in a package that says, "i am not putting up with this."

delta does come off as much more understanding of situations like this. i can also appreciate that in delta.

[Rick]

begin rant

i get the general gist of this about ISFjs and i have heard similar comments from my dad's ex-wife. and i see why people don't like it (very uncompromising,) but god i really wish more people were like this in a way. if someone stabs me because i vaguely remind them of some ex-girlfriend they had once upon a time or of their abusive parent, i assure you i am not going to be happy about it or willing to accept "he had a rough childhood." as an answer.

i really miss the "no excuses" sort of thing and wish people had been like this with me growing up. like i could use less or something, because i would be too sympathetic and like, "aw, he had a tough life." when it seems like ultimately it just winds up being some excuse to shit on people. and have i ever had a mess in this arena.

like you always hear about serial killers and the "tough lives" they had growing up. awesome. let's let them run free. we'll see how understanding and empathetic we can all be then. ugh.

end rant


on a side note, is it that much better with ISTps/ESTjs? they can be pretty fixed in their decisions/opinions, as well, i hear.

and here we go with the . sorry if that sounded too aggressive or if i misunderstood. (; hah. apologies for thread hijackery as well.

This is a good illustration of the differences between Gamma and Delta quadras. ILIs need to understand that they need to make an effort for things to happen in life, and so the ESIs' emphasis on responsibility for one's actions and your effect on other people is something they need. In Delta Quadra this is sort of a non-issue. It's assumed that people know how to behave, and if they aren't behaving that way, it's because of some cultural or physiological differences, or because of defects (what many LSEs believe). I think Deltas tend to view personality and temperament as being fixed constants ( ) that have to be reckoned with, whereas Gammas, while not necessarily disagreeing, focus on things that make people behave one way or another (forcing people to behave right, external rewards and demands, and developing the personal willpower and character to behave right).

[Rick]

I think that dialogue was a bit extreme; I sure don't think that ISFjs have difficulty understanding or feeling sorry for other people generally...

The reason they sound extreme in these cases is because they're arguing with IEEs and their is being threatened! Supervision leads to extreme, often ridiculous statements.

[meatburger]

Yeah. I think i like to understand people before i judge them.

A woman is seen on the street stealing bread.

ISFj - oh thats horrible put her in jail
ENFp - thats horrible i wonder why she did that

She stole the bread to feed her starving children.

[Expat]

I think Deltas tend to view personality and temperament as being fixed constants ( ) that have to be reckoned with, whereas Gammas, while not necessarily disagreeing, focus on things that make people behave one way or another (forcing people to behave right, external rewards and demands, and developing the personal willpower and character to behave right).

I'm not sure if that's the way it works, at least with me --

When I think of "punishing evil", I am not thinking primarily of changing their behavior ie making them learn to behave well -- I am thinking of eradicating evil, period. That is not to mean that I can't change my mind about who is "evil" or not if they genuinely repent - anyone can make mistakes - but it's not my primary motivation, I don't think.

A little example --

The father of an EII friend of mine is LIE. He's a small-size, moderately successful entrepreneur. For many reasons, he had to entrust a considerable amount of money - belonging to himself and his son - to the LIE's brother, also a (less successful) businessman.

The brother "invested" the money entrusted to him, without permission, and lost everything. The LIE's reaction was, "I have two options, I can either kill him or forgive him. He's my brother, so I guess I have to forgive him".

I fully relate to that reaction -- there is no thought of "I hope this will teach him a lesson"; it's rather an acceptance of the way the brother is and deciding that there's nothing to do.

[meatburger]

i hope i have understood meatburger's point

Perfectly.

This has been a good example of differing quadra values. Its all to do with Focus as Expat pointed out. Since mum was focused on the crime and i was focused on the why, we are both arguing in different directions.

[Slacker]

I understood too, and I have the same types of conversations with my ISFj brother. And it inevitably comes down to him saying, "that doesn't make it OK" and me saying, "No but it helps to explain it."

Another thing is that he'll have to figure out what to expect in a situation, and I'll give him lots of ideas about different things that could happen, and it just makes him agitated. My ENTj mom will sit him down and tell him just what's up and he's happy. She seems to instinctively know that I'm not giving him what he needs. "No, no, he doesn't need to hear that. (and then to him) Now here's what's going to happen . . . and then you need to do this . . . and then watch for this . . . " The whole time I'm thinking, "Well maybe that'll happen, but what if this happens? Or this? Or what if he sees this?" But I've learned to just keep my mouth shut!

[stefana]

i really miss the "no excuses" sort of thing and wish people had been like this with me growing up. like i could use less or something, because i would be too sympathetic and like, "aw, he had a tough life." when it seems like ultimately it just winds up being some excuse to shit on people. and have i ever had a mess in this arena.

like you always hear about serial killers and the "tough lives" they had growing up. awesome. let's let them run free. we'll see how understanding and empathetic we can all be then. ugh.

end rant


on a side note, is it that much better with ISTps/ESTjs? they can be pretty fixed in their decisions/opinions, as well, i hear.

and here we go with the . sorry if that sounded too aggressive or if i misunderstood. (; hah. apologies for thread hijackery as well.

i get you. sometimes... no... many times, when you empathise with people and find all kinds of extenuating circumstances for their behaviour, you could really set yourself up for some shitty situations. worse still is dealing with the "misunderstood" people who wind up treating you like sh*t because you are so kind and understanding to them that they think they could show you their true colours (which unfortunately means going violent in your face). this is demeaning.

i agree with felafel on the other hand. you let them know the plausible "whys" but that does not mean you condone the act.

[Not A Communist Shill]

however, i have often found that it is difficult putting the "whys" in words so that they sound like "whys" rather than "excuses". certain people have used my "whys" in the past to their advantage - ie. saying that i was making up excuses for X and Z, and that i "agreed" with X's and Z's behaviour.

What you should do ( + ?) is make your arguments like this - 'if someone is 10% more likely to commit a crime because of....(an incident they have no control of), they obviously are less able to prevent commiting a crime.....also, what if there are lots of unknown reasons you don't know about...is it fair to judge someone in such a black-and-white way without knowledge of the facts? ' etc. .

Though usually with my ISTj and ISFj parents, I have to lose the 'if' otherwise they'll say I'm talking hypothetically - it's 'obviously' not a real situation (well, duh ).

Sometimes I make up figures to make them look more plausible and\or I take someone's extreme, non-flexiable views to their ad absurdum extremes to make the views look ridiculous (I exaggerate, basically).

[science as magic]

i actually admire isfjs that do not let circumstances dictate personality. i do think does not "see" certain things which actually acts in their favor because they are not limited by "what everyone knows" (at least in the case of isxjs with regards to personal will).

[aestrivex]

I have had the same "problem." I've always felt that philosophy was the "key." But as soon as you start studying it, your eyelids grow heavy and you feel like going to play frisbee or something. Since then I've realized that what you're talking about is actually only academic philosophy, or philosophy as an academic subject. Actual philosophers can be and are people of all different types. They write or perform or sell art or whatever and influence people's ideas about life and the nature of things. Philosophy is a very broad subject that covers all areas of life. But the real philosophy is then studied by academics, who sell the study of philosophy as "philosophy" itself. It's like studying business rather than doing business. Where will you meet more real businessmen?

Right now there is philosophy happening around us in healthcare, lifestyle, culture, business, politics, ecology, and family relationships. Each area has its spokesmen who are influencing the way we think about things. Several decades from now, their words and work will be analyzed and broken down by academics, translated into + formulations, and put into dry, boring textbooks. That's the philosophy they teach you in school.

this is not the main focus of this thread, as it seems, but this is exactly on the money. i have come to understand that when somebody else talks about philosophy, they are generally talking about something completely different than am i.

[XoX]

i hope i have understood meatburger's point

Perfectly.

This has been a good example of differing quadra values. Its all to do with Focus as Expat pointed out. Since mum was focused on the crime and i was focused on the why, we are both arguing in different directions.

The problem is that you are both right. You personally are right about the fact that his environment did a good job of ruining him. Your mom is right about the fact that the guy needs a good spanking. Your focus is just different. She focuses on the punishment and you focus on the reasons behind all this behavior. She focuses on the necessary immediate consequences and you focus on making the world a better place in the long run.

[Ms. Kensington]

i hope i have understood meatburger's point

Perfectly.

This has been a good example of differing quadra values. Its all to do with Focus as Expat pointed out. Since mum was focused on the crime and i was focused on the why, we are both arguing in different directions.

The problem is that you are both right. You personally are right about the fact that his environment did a good job of ruining him. Your mom is right about the fact that the guy needs a good spanking. Your focus is just different. She focuses on the punishment and you focus on the reasons behind all this behavior. She focuses on the necessary immediate consequences and you focus on making the world a better place in the long run.

what's also interesting is that if they are talking about different points they still think that what the other said is "against" what the first had said. Or, maybe they both think "that is the wrong focus to have on the issue as a whole", which makes more sense.

[Ms. Kensington]

I have had the same "problem." I've always felt that philosophy was the "key." But as soon as you start studying it, your eyelids grow heavy and you feel like going to play frisbee or something. Since then I've realized that what you're talking about is actually only academic philosophy, or philosophy as an academic subject. Actual philosophers can be and are people of all different types. They write or perform or sell art or whatever and influence people's ideas about life and the nature of things. Philosophy is a very broad subject that covers all areas of life. But the real philosophy is then studied by academics, who sell the study of philosophy as "philosophy" itself. It's like studying business rather than doing business. Where will you meet more real businessmen?

Right now there is philosophy happening around us in healthcare, lifestyle, culture, business, politics, ecology, and family relationships. Each area has its spokesmen who are influencing the way we think about things. Several decades from now, their words and work will be analyzed and broken down by academics, translated into + formulations, and put into dry, boring textbooks. That's the philosophy they teach you in school.

this is not the main focus of this thread, as it seems, but this is exactly on the money. i have come to understand that when somebody else talks about philosophy, they are generally talking about something completely different than am i.

I don't think its quite the same as the relationship between studying business and doing business. I think philosophy is a mental subject and to do philosophy is to stay in that realm, whereas you don't do business in the classroom, you do business in the world. If you are doing business in the world, you're a real businessman. But i don't think people say, the business people talk about in the classroom is not the same business that is done in the world. I think they call what is done in the classroom "studying business".

I think what is done in the world that is not academic philosophy is more like believing a religion or practicing meditation, or sociology.

[meatburger]

Or, maybe they both think "that is the wrong focus to have on the issue as a whole", which makes more sense.

She was saying hijacking is wrong and we need to punish criminals
I also agree with this

i tried to provide her with information. (possibilities on how to broaden her focus)
She rejected the information.

[aestrivex]

I don't think its quite the same as the relationship between studying business and doing business. I think philosophy is a mental subject and to do philosophy is to stay in that realm, whereas you don't do business in the classroom, you do business in the world. If you are doing business in the world, you're a real businessman. But i don't think people say, the business people talk about in the classroom is not the same business that is done in the world. I think they call what is done in the classroom "studying business".

I think what is done in the world that is not academic philosophy is more like believing a religion or practicing meditation, or sociology.

no; this is not really what i meant. i believe that the discrepancy has to do much more with the nature of the subject rather than its application. it's more the sense of that i have such an extraordinarily different way of deriving my philosophy than do many other people that, to the other group, the philosophy doesn't look like anything at all.

[Exodus]

i have such an extraordinarily different way of deriving my philosophy than do many other people

Intriguing. How exactly then?

[meatburger]

i have such an extraordinarily different way of deriving my philosophy than do many other people

Intriguing. How exactly then?

Hehe this is funny. This thread could easily turn into a and fest lol. On the philosophy thread on my uni website there is an INTj (im guessing) ripping through everyones arguments. Socionics has saved me from feeling dumb in his prescence, i simply understand that hes functionally far better than this than me

[aestrivex]

i have such an extraordinarily different way of deriving my philosophy than do many other people

Intriguing. How exactly then?

edit: forget it; i can't explain it satisfactorily. suffice to say it takes on what i would call a very Ni viewpoint and relates, essentially, to the fact that the individual cannot relate to the exactitude of the universe as it is at any given moment, but, in doing so, relates to it in a way that allows an alternative form of insight (ie the infinite).

i know that doesn't make any sense, but, as i said, i really have no idea how to actually explain this.

[implied]

however, i have often found that it is difficult putting the "whys" in words so that they sound like "whys" rather than "excuses". certain people have used my "whys" in the past to their advantage - ie. saying that i was making up excuses for X and Z, and that i "agreed" with X's and Z's behaviour.

haha.

my dad does this to my ESFj mother when she defends my ENTp brother! in his eyes, you agree with their behavior because you do not actively reject it or (in my fam's case) try to be tough on bad behavior and discipline.

[Exodus]

i have such an extraordinarily different way of deriving my philosophy than do many other people

Intriguing. How exactly then?

edit: forget it; i can't explain it satisfactorily. suffice to say it takes on what i would call a very Ni viewpoint and relates, essentially, to the fact that the individual cannot relate to the exactitude of the universe as it is at any given moment, but, in doing so, relates to it in a way that allows an alternative form of insight (ie the infinite).

That sounds complicated. I like to stick with "to be = to be perceived".

[Pink]

Ne Polr / supervision conversation between me and my ISFj mum:

"Hey mum i have been reading about this guy that hijacked a bus in Rio De Janeiro"
"oh thats terrible"
"Yeah. He didn't have a father, his mother was killed infront of him as a kid and he was beaten as a street kid by police"
"That doesn't excuse what he did"
"But mum you have to understand that his actions were due to how traumatic his life has been"
"He could choose to be nice if he wanted too"
"No your just not getting it. You were brought up in a perfectly happy environment and thats largely why your nice. If you hadn't been loved when you were younger you could be the one on the bus etc..."

Anyway after a bit more of that i decided i was being mean and stopped

His upbringing is such an unfortunate tragedy and there's no doubt that the extremely unfortunate circumstances(especially at such a young age) lead him into a seriously unhealthy mental state and to develop atypically (mentally) compared to the average person.

His actions are not excusable. He must be trained and taught to understand the morality of his behaviour. With witnessing a parent being murdered at such a young age, it would make sense that he'd be reluctant to trust any one around him. The world would feel like such a scary place. You'd think the world would be out to get you.

I can see where your mom is coming from, too though. I wouldn't peg your mom as Ne polr based on those statements. No one will ever know this mans life better than himself, but there is that small ray of Hope that he could have had the possibility to transform his adversities and hardship into something that could better himself and those around him. I wouldn't doubt that he would have had the chance to do so in his life. But then again, what do I know?

i know that this thread is 9 years old now (wtf) but it was an interesting topic I couldn't hold back from lol