ENFp, negative feedback and shitty times

[science as magic]

Hmm... that seems a bit extreme to me.

extremes are only extreme to those who are a sufficient # of degrees away from an idea. as thought expands so will extremity. this is a good thing.

[schrödinger's cat]

Pedro and anndelise, is that "depression" as in "feeling low and melancholy", or as in "crippling inertia that is so painful you end up feeling suicidal"?

the latter. it is freeing.

Postcards from la-la land.

OK, I've taken a deep breath, I've tried to centre myself and think happy thoughts, and it didn't really work. I still think you're nuts. No offence, Pedro; what I mean is you're nuts in this one instance. But nuts. Completely and utterly off your trolley. Having said that, I'll add that I'm quite open to the possibility that you do, in fact, know what you're talking about. It is possible. So, hombre, do you know what you're talking about? Yes/no?

[meatburger]

Your one trippy little cat

*Strokes the pussy*

[schrödinger's cat]

Yeah, I know, I'm being tetchy. Reason why:

Complications develop in people with chronic PTSD and delayed onset PTSD. These include the following:

* Chronic anxiety
* Depression and increased risk for suicide
* Divorce and separation
* Guilt
* Low self-esteem
* Panic attacks
* Phobias
* Unemployment

All of this is about as liberating as a slipped disc.

OK, back to the deep breathing exercises. Iiiinnnn... and out. And iiiiinnnn...

[diamond]

FWIW I've never known enfp's to lean toward depression. They might become sort of down about something, but the ones I know always look on the bright side . . . and they usually have many friends and acquaintences who stand by their side. :-)

Enfp's? Depression? Seems like an oxymoron.

[schrödinger's cat]

I know what you mean, Blaze. Even at the worst of times I'm still buoyant. It's like taking a deeeep dive into the depths of despair, and then sort of popping back up again: hello sunshine, here I am.... Like trying to drown a duck.

Actually this could protract the depression. I'm wondering: If I simply let go and let myself experience all the inertia and negativity at once instead of bottling it up and pretending everything's alright... perhaps I'd get it over and done with more quickly?

[Slacker]

I've been fairly depressed a couple of times. The most recent time was post-partum depression, which is all hormonal. The other time was after an illness and might very well have had some biological explanation as well.

I'm generally pretty upbeat.

[jessica129]

I would say i've suffered from a mild depression my whole life with occasional severe episodes. I'm used to it. What was the original topic again?

[meatburger]

I would say i've suffered from a mild depression my whole life with occasional severe episodes. I'm used to it. What was the original topic again?

**Pats Jessicas Unicorn Coat**

I think the original topic was about Aaron but he is no where to be seen. Hes probablly partying hard and hanging with his mates. If so, hes well on the road to feeling better

[FDG]

I would say i've suffered from a mild depression my whole life with occasional severe episodes. I'm used to it. What was the original topic again?

**Pats Jessicas Unicorn Coat**

Yeah sure, you're totally patting her Unicorn Coat

[diamond]

I would say i've suffered from a mild depression my whole life with occasional severe episodes. I'm used to it. What was the original topic again?

**Pats Jessicas Unicorn Coat**

Yeah sure, you're totally patting her Unicorn Coat

heh

[science as magic]

So, hombre, do you know what you're talking about? Yes/no?

Possibly. I do not necessarily value it in and of itself as it retards functioning in the short term but, it is a mechanism that further isolates perspectives which allows them to be arranged in a greater # of manners by means of having been cuspidated(?).

[schrödinger's cat]

it is a mechanism that further isolates perspectives which allows them to be arranged in a greater # of manners by means of having been cuspidated(?).

It isn't. Your type probably gets different depressions than mine. My depression doesn't cuspidate anything. It flattens things out and takes away their substance. Everything turns into something dark, black, bleak and horrible and lifeless and two-dimensional. Once I've got rid of the depression, things cuspidate again nicely and, indeed, assume their former ensiform or acerose phenotypes, provided, of course, they're meant to be hastate and/or setaceous. Or, for that matter, spicate.

I'll sue life now, I think. I want whatever depressions your type gets. The ones us ENFPs get are shit.

[FDG]

. Once I've got rid of the depression, things cuspidate again nicely and, indeed, assume their former ensiform or acerose phenotypes, provided, of course, they're meant to be hastate and/or setaceous. Or, for that matter, spicate.

rotfl

[science as magic]

it breaks things down and puts them back together in new ways. would you disagree with that statement? it is rather unpleasant but i think that gets sorted out in due time (and i think the effects will be made negligible once we are able to manipulate pain to a higher degree).

[FDG]

(and i think the effects will be made negligible once we are able to manipulate pain to a higher degree).

Then it's not depression anymore. If there aren't the symptoms, the illness cannot be diagnosed/recognized and, more importantly, experienced, which is the necessary condition in order to rearrange the array of our perceptions.

[schrödinger's cat]

it breaks things down and puts them back together in new ways. would you disagree with that statement?

I'm beginning to understand what you mean.

First, though: what you say applies (if it does) to people who FIRST had a certain set worldview, and THEN that was broken down and put back together in a new way. With me it was the other way round. I got my depression before I got my worldview. Everyone who was depressed throughout puberty will probably be unable to understand how a depression can be productive of anything.

What is true is that you see things differently. You see what is stable and what gives way under pressure. That applies to all sorts of things. Friends, life goals, the things you do to make you feel good. Afterwards, as you emerge from your depression, you'll still know how shallow and untrustworthy some things or people turned out to be.

So, a depression deconstructs stuff. I'm still unable to see how it can actually produce anything worthwhile. Could you give an example?

[Mariano Rajoy]

demand for pharmaceuticals? pretension among artists? fodder for the ego? i am sure someone somewhere would find these worthwhile.

[science as magic]

First, though: what you say applies (if it does) to people who FIRST had a certain set worldview, and THEN that was broken down and put back together in a new way. With me it was the other way round. I got my depression before I got my worldview. Everyone who was depressed throughout puberty will probably be unable to understand how a depression can be productive of anything.

I was not referencing worldviews per se though I do think that unless you had your depression quite early (<5 years of age or so) that you lacked all identity. That is another issue however...

So, a depression deconstructs stuff. I'm still unable to see how it can actually produce anything worthwhile. Could you give an example?

in my opinion it operates on a similar principal to anagrams or some such. it doesn't create new material per se but juxtaposes the arrangement of arbitrary formations in such a way that new meaning is apprehended. one could also argue that deconstruction is potentially an inverse of construction a sort of not construction that can be reversed with construction arbitrarily. c relates to ~c whereif ~c is * then c is ~*

[schrödinger's cat]

one could also argue that deconstruction is potentially an inverse of construction a sort of not construction that can be reversed with construction arbitrarily. c relates to ~c whereif ~c is * then c is ~*

If that is an example, I wouldn't want to hear you theorize. :wink:

[anndelise]

FWIW I've never known enfp's to lean toward depression. They might become sort of down about something, but the ones I know always look on the bright side . . . and they usually have many friends and acquaintences who stand by their side. :-)

Enfp's? Depression? Seems like an oxymoron.

Enfps don't generally fall into the chronic depression diagnosis. Of the NF's, it's the NFjs who do.

NFps generally fall into the bipolar diagnosis. Which waves between highs and lows. (I know i know..the psychological term is "cycle" not "wave", but it is quite frustrating to even think that I am destined for a low just because I hit a high, and "cycle" takes away the concept of "plateau" which often occurs and which IS a term often used when psychologists etc discuss bipolar.)

[anndelise]

Cat:

Pedro and I are saying about the same thing. That depression involves the breaking down of pathways and connections which are then rebuilt into a (hopefully) more adaptable path.

Cat, notice what is happening during the times you are depressed...as in the "crippling inertia" type.
I am willing to bet that these bouts come during times when you are struggling with a problem you can't seem to solve. There is only so much we can consciously do before we have to let our … subconscious … take over without interference. Hence, why long walks, playing logic/puzzle games that only require minimal thinking (to distract one's self) seem to soothe the soul. It is during those times when we are finally allowing the rest of our mind to go to work on the problem instead of only the part we control.
---
You listed the ptsd symptoms. It took me over 10 years to finally get over the flashbacks. And a very trustworthy guy (who fit all my criteria for NOT triggering the ptsd, anxiety, guilt, low self-esteem, etc) to get over the intimate relationship issues.

What helped me was
1) understanding what my mind/body is doing during those inertia times,
2) discovering what was most important to me,
3) learning how to not allow certain triggers into my life, and
4) learning to cycle between 3-5 projects so that when I hit a rough spot in one project and I can't solve the issue, I turn to another project, thus allowing the rest of my mind to work on the issue so that by the time I cycle back to the original project, I've got a couple of plans of actions I can try.

I have also learned to ALLOW myself the down periods after a particularly trying problem for my body/mind to recoup from the stress.

And really, if you want to simplify the inertia type of depression…it's merely the body's response to stress.

Now, recalling the times when you found yourself starting to go into a period of inertia, feeling mentally drained or emotionally dead, and recalling the amount of stress you had just gone through, and now imagine KNOWING that this period is for the benefit of your body/mind to either recover from that stress or prepare for another battle, can you possibly imagine how much lighter the guilt/load could be over dissing yourself for not doing what you "should" be doing?

[anndelise]

Pushing my point a little more:

Cat quoted:

Complications develop in people with chronic PTSD and delayed onset PTSD. These include the following:

* Chronic anxiety
* Depression and increased risk for suicide
* Divorce and separation
* Guilt
* Low self-esteem
* Panic attacks
* Phobias
* Unemployment

What do all these things have in common at their most basest?

STRESS!

Chronic anxiety comes from? .....chronic stress

Divorce and separation comes from? .....stress (possible other reasons but those reasons either exist due to or now contribute to stress)

Guilt comes from? ....placing stress upon one's self (yes, other people can tell you what you "should" be doing, but only if you believe that yes, perhaps you "should" be doing it, does it count as actual feelings of guilt)

Low self-esteem comes from? ....again, placing stress upon one's self, feeling guilt because you don't meet some criteria YOU believe you should meet...if you didn't believe in the criteria AND you didn't "should" yourself into meeting that criteria, would you feel low self-esteem?

Panic attacks come from? ....stressing out about a situation, usually from the imaginings of the situation than the actual situation itself. (Most people who go into panic attacks worked themselves into that state by imagining all sorts of things that could go wrong in that situation. Yet, these people are actually pretty good at responding quickly and efficiently during emergencies. Why? I believe it has to do with where our mind is focused....on resolving the emergency, or on imagining potential emergencies.)

Phobias? well....that could depend on the phobia and the underlying trigger. But, basically, a phobia comes from something being a stress trigger. Also, see panic attack.

Unemployment comes from? You got it, Stress. Either something about the job is triggering stress, something in their home life is triggering stress, or their body/mind hasn't had or isn't having a chance to recover from a stress (previous or current).
---

People think that pain is a bad thing. We shouldn't have pain. Wouldn't it be great if we never had to feel pain again?

What those people fail to think about is that pain serves as a self protecting mechanism. If your hand is unwittingly lying on a burner on the stove, and that burner is on....what do you think would happen to your hand if you DIDN'T feel pain?

Depression serves the same function. If your mind/body didn't take the time out to recoup from a stressful period, or didn't take even a brief time out away from the problem,...what do you think would happen to your mind/body?

Ever notice how the longer the mind/body goes without any form of recouperation, the worse "symptoms" become.

[anndelise]

*giggles*

ya think that maybe this topic hit a trigger of mine??? :wink:

[schrödinger's cat]

Anndelise, I need to think about it for a while. Generally, you've got a few points there, but I'm not sure if I'm as optimistic as you are.

[anndelise]

Anndelise, I need to think about it for a while. Generally, you've got a few points there, but I'm not sure if I'm as optimistic as you are.

One of my signature quotes (below) includes "If the perception is poor...".

For the longest time, my perceptions of the inertia, the "shoulds", past influences, etc supported my eraticness. It took YEARS of searching anything and everything I could lay my hands on (and comprehend) before I was able to alter some of my perceptions. I can't change the past, but I can change my reactions to its effects. Optimism doesn't come overnight. And yes, when I'm in the throws of guilt because I'm not a good enough mother, or not a good enough partner, or cuz I don't seem to get anything accomplished, or cuz i'm as spastic as I am, or or or....yes, there are times when I forget what's going on. It doesn't take long though before I start to remind myself of what's happening, why it's happening, and what I have to look forward to when it's "over"...and to be honest...it never really feels "over", but it does feel "lessened". When I look back on where I was, in comparison to where I am now, it's like I'm in a whole new world, like I'm a whole new person.

No, I still don't handle stress well (to put it mildly ).
But I do handle potential triggers far better than I thought I ever could.
----


DeBono has an exercise which I found really interesting.
1. For a specific situation, write down 5 negative things about it.
2. For the same situation, write down 5 positive things about it. (sometimes this takes work)
3. For the same situation, write down 5 interesting things about it.

I like this exercise because while it may take an FiNe approach, it does help to improve one's spontaneous Ne perceptions. Like, developing a habit. The more you do the item you want to become a habit, the easier and more spontaneous it becomes. The more I worked towards seeing the positive/interesting things about a situation, the easier it becomes to see the positive/interesting things about the situation as it's occuring.

[science as magic]

Cat:

Pedro and I are saying about the same thing. That depression involves the breaking down of pathways and connections which are then rebuilt

YEA!

into a (hopefully) more adaptable path.

Nay I don't think the form of the resultant matters much.

[schrödinger's cat]

If I understand you right, ann, your point is that sometimes it's good to have one's false assumptions destroyed, because then you're forced to start all over again and build yourself up from scratch. That's a good point. I'm not disagreeing with you really, just stressing other facets of the same thing. Like these:

• A depression destroys bad and good things. It's not as if it picks over your psyche and goes "oh, that's old and useless, I'll destroy that." It just goes ka-BLAM and nukes everything. It also nukes good stuff.
  
  Sometimes you can get all the good stuff back, sometimes you can't, or at least not fully. And that's the main point that I see differently than you and Pedro, I think. The way I see it, it's more like an earthquake destroys a city. You can't just say "oh, it'll be rebuilt and it'll be more beautiful than ever." That might happen. Perhaps it will happen in most cases, who knows? But it doesn't necessarily follow as a matter of course.
  
  And even if you can reconstruct everything, it'll still be true that you were depressed for so many weeks, months, or years, and that time is gone. You won't be able to get that back.
  
  While it's true that a depression can lead to positive stuff (like forcing you to develop better thinking habits), the depression itself didn't actually create those things. You did that.

It's no good to dwell on these facts, of course. But they need to be acknowledged and taken into account. Doing that is part of my own new and improved post-depression way of thinking, ironically enough.

[anndelise]

Cat:

Pedro and I are saying about the same thing. That depression involves the breaking down of pathways and connections which are then rebuilt

YEA!

into a (hopefully) more adaptable path.

Nay I don't think the form of the resultant matters much.

Of course you wouldn't An ENFp does, though. :wink:

[anndelise]

While it's true that a depression can lead to positive stuff (like forcing you to develop better thinking habits), the depression itself didn't actually create those things. You did that.[/list]

True enough, except that once it's realized what is happening with the depression, you have a choice to either scramble around attempting to hold things together, good AND bad (since if they blew up together, they are somehow connected) and thus create more stress and more "shoulds" on top of what's already triggered the depression, or you can turn your attentions to something new, giving your body/mind time to recouperate.

Cat, I am certainly not saying that my way of viewing things is perfected. At times, I do mourn the loss of some of the skills/strengths I once had. But when I look back on those times and see what it was that forced me to develop those skills/strengths, they have each been based on unhealthy building blocks. Sometimes I wish to God that there was a way of keeping those strengths/skills, but I know that as I redevelop the ones I have found to be important to me, I also know that they are being built off some pretty solid blocks.

However, I'd like to just remind you that these are merely my thoughts, and my own personal way of dealing with the issues from my life. I do not recommend half of the things I did in my attempts to deal. Even if what I've mentioned above is a sugar pill, I know that just the changing of my perceptions of what's going on when it's happening reduces the severity of it. And, while I don't have hopes of it ever NOT happening again, I do know that I've proven over and over again that I am a survivor. This is perhaps my strongest strength.

I like to follow the saying: The best revenge is to live well.
Well, I may not quite be living "well", but dammit, I'm alive and kicking.

[schrödinger's cat]

I like to follow the saying: The best revenge is to live well. Well, I may not quite be living "well", but dammit, I'm alive and kicking.

Good. Atta girl!

We're probably agreeing anyway, just stressing different elements of the same truth. At the end of the day, the best thing to do after a depression is to say "OK, it happened, and that's what it was like. But that was then. This is now. And right now I'm not surviving any more, I'm living a life." (Which sounds like something out of a Bon Jovi song, I know, but it's the truth.) Only in your case, probably you've always known the first bit of that sentence and your experiences have taught you the value of the second. With me, I've always known the second half of that sentence and have only over time learned the first. Which is why we seem to disagree now when really we probably don't. ...Good theory, eh?

[ENFPaaron]

wow, i forgot i posted on here, haha

ne ways, doing much better lately but i can tell that im gonna head downhill in a bit when im forced to deal w/ all the shit that im ignoring right now.

i didnt wanna take the time to look for the exact post, but someone said something about how enfp's they knew never seemed to be depressed. i have to say, that even at the worst of times, most of my friends (except for like 2 who have known me my whole life) never had any clue that i was feeling down. im very good at faking how i feel, and on another note that just came to me, usually if im around people i feel good, the depressed times usually come when im alone at night or something of that nature
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Lexus GX picture

[schrödinger's cat]

i have to say, that even at the worst of times, most of my friends (except for like 2 who have known me my whole life) never had any clue that i was feeling down. im very good at faking how i feel, and on another note that just came to me, usually if im around people i feel good, the depressed times usually come when im alone at night or something of that nature

Funny. Same here. I'll jump to the obvious conclusion and say it's type related.

[Topaz]

i have to say, that even at the worst of times, most of my friends (except for like 2 who have known me my whole life) never had any clue that i was feeling down. im very good at faking how i feel, and on another note that just came to me, usually if im around people i feel good, the depressed times usually come when im alone at night or something of that nature

Funny. Same here. I'll jump to the obvious conclusion and say it's type related.

Yeah, me too. I'll even jump with you. AAAAAHHHHHHHH!

[Kim]

i have to say, that even at the worst of times, most of my friends (except for like 2 who have known me my whole life) never had any clue that i was feeling down. im very good at faking how i feel, and on another note that just came to me, usually if im around people i feel good, the depressed times usually come when im alone at night or something of that nature

Funny. Same here. I'll jump to the obvious conclusion and say it's type related.

Yeah, me too. I'll even jump with you. AAAAAHHHHHHHH!

Me too! We could hold hands and jump in neat little circles!

[schrödinger's cat]

Or let's all put on our dark shades and lean back in our "I too can brood like James Dean" mode. First one to giggle pays for the drinks.

But it really makes sense, doesn't it? Why should I be depressed when I'm around people? Being around people = stimulation, interest, sunshine and confetti. Being depressed = shunning people. Same logic: Whenever I say goodbye to someone, I handle it really well. I never cry. Why should I? The other person is still with me. They're saying goodbye, true, but they're still here, talking to me. But once I'm back home again, without them, I'm sad. Do I show that to someone? No. Because having someone ask me how I am = sunshine and confetti. They care! They interact with me! That's nothing to mope about, is it? Once they're gone, it's different, of course.

So you see, we COULD be those incredibly cool moping people, only our people-person-ality gets in the way.

[meatburger]

i have to say, that even at the worst of times, most of my friends (except for like 2 who have known me my whole life) never had any clue that i was feeling down. im very good at faking how i feel, and on another note that just came to me, usually if im around people i feel good, the depressed times usually come when im alone at night or something of that nature

Funny. Same here. I'll jump to the obvious conclusion and say it's type related.

Yeah, me too. I'll even jump with you. AAAAAHHHHHHHH!

Me too! We could hold hands and jump in neat little circles!

Yeah me aswell lol. It helped with my Anxiety when i told people and they said, "i couldn't actually tell that you were nervous mate". It Made me feel much better. Could it be our . I find i can feel the slightest nuance or sign of nervousness in other people, but other types may not be quite as adept at picking up these things?

I agree with what the Cat just said 100%. For an ENFP to feel better, sprinkle 1 drop of alcohol, 3 parts of fun, a dash of comfort food and mix it all with friends. A recipie for happiness

[ENFPaaron]

haha i totally agree
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Navistar DT engine

[SLeo123083]

Hmm I can just relate strongly to what everybody means. I'm not ENFp, but I really like you guys. I always feel like I can just say whatever's on my mind to you.

I've suffered from depression off and on, and what I found that works best for me is that I really need other people for positive reinforcement. Without it I feel lost and unsure of myself. It's my own Prozac, just to have somebody believing in me. I don't go outright and say it, but I value the opinions of ENFps very much because I always find them useful and insightful. I think you guys help INFjs tremendously, or maybe that's just me.

I don't see how people can really be so independent that they don't need somebody for emotional support. Such a world seems cold and cruel to me.

[meatburger]

I have a very good INFj friend and he calls me his councillor lol. Lately he has been asking me a lot of questions as he has just got his first girlfriend. Not like i know much about girls but i like helping him and he seems to benefit from my advice. He feels much better.

They say the ENFP keeps their own council. I often do ask peoples opinions on things but i suppose i rarely actually need them. If i was isolated from people and friends for even a short time i think i would go insane