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    Default Revolutionaries

    The act of uprising and fighting the established rulers (or external aggressors) is stereotypically a Beta thing. This is probably connected to their / valuing. Especially the motivates people to rebel against, rather than endure, whatever is not okay, imho.

    But I read that a lot of LIIs were actually famous revolutionaries (Robespierre, Garibaldi, ect.) even if they have as polr. But shouldn't this actually make the individual hate violence (like INFjs)? The sense of justice comes from the leading , but aren't those actions more typical for LSIs?
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Se is also what you use when you realize that the threat of violence/roughness makes a certain way of behaving a stupid thing to do. Se PoLR is more like an obliviousness to such factors than a fearful awareness.

    there is also the issue that "violence" isn't a fool-proof description of what Se is about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    there is also the issue that "violence" isn't a fool-proof description of what Se is about.
    I don't think he meant that, that necessarily revolution means violence. Gammas are the least inclined to initiate or relate (unless some gain) to revolutions, though they're Se/Ni valuers.
    ---

    Normally, the idea to revolutionize things is based on the dichotomy-with-no-name which is called by some people "Alpha values/Gamma values", aka Merry,Judicious/Serious,Decisive, aka independence/establishment, aka intrinsic/extrinsic. Because Alphas has both Rational and Irrational functions "independent", they don't usually have any compulsion to impose this, to generalize their views, to establish anything. Imagine that a revolution is the struggle to establish something - the way you find as "correct" - over the previous establishment globally.

    Very often the ideologies for revolutions (not "revolutionary ideas") were created by Alphas. Betas are generally very active selectors, rather than innovators, they take such ideas and want to implement them, but be aware that they're not necessary "against the system" - but simply they have a high awareness of "how things ought be" based on their reasoning (Ti/Fe, independent, Rational), so whether their ideology contradicts the establishments or other challenging ideologies it's just an arbitrary matter, all they do is to see them applied for their all environment (Se/Ni, Irrationally establish). As we know, Betas may be either fierce defenders of the system/hierarchy or eager activists against it, rarely in-between.
    ---

    For Serious quadras (Te/Fi), "how things ought be" means only "how things are, what works, what's know as good" - they can't make the difference (the ideology itself is based on establishment or habit - that also means that they're very prone to be influenced by constant peaceful activism, eg underground manifestos, press). The establishment applies to their ideology, however, it does not apply to their perception on society. Therefore, this is why they adapt the most easily to new establishments (the stereotype of the worker, builder who doesn't have any reasons to question the social status quo), very prone to spontaneous riots, but they don't relate to revolutionary ideologies more than with the hope that the oppression will cease and they will hopefully be left alone and not imposed by someone.
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    Thanks, this is pretty intersting actually. That makes sense, and these explanations fit with my ideas about the quadras as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt View Post
    Because Alphas has both Rational and Irrational functions "independent", they don't usually have any compulsion to impose this, to generalize their views, to establish anything.
    I don't really understand what you mean by this. If Alphas have that, doesn't this mean every other quadra has this 'idependent' part too?
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    I don't really understand what you mean by this. If Alphas have that, doesn't this mean every other quadra has this 'idependent' part too?
    No, that applies only to Ti/Fe and Ne/Si. That's in fact the idea. Maybe I'm not being clear enough, but:
    - independent Rational (Merry): ideologies, views that make sense/is consistent to you, independent conclusions, what is logically consistent, regardless of whether it is known (to work), accepted by others or not, understanding;
    - establishment Rational (Serious): what you know already, what people know, what is known (to work), "what else?", learning;
    - independent Irrational (Judicious): independence, non-imposition, lack of standards, what you consider to be good you do for yourself, you're just concerned on the society as a whole only if something else is imposed upon you (which often means that you're not "compliant", not necessarily exploited);
    - establishment Irrational (Decisive): awareness of "the best", standards, wanting that all people be in a similar framework, relate in values, that your accomplishments are recognized - imagine what big dump take a random Amazonian tribe on your Cambridge degree let alone that you're Steve Jobs/Bill Gates -, that your capacity/position/skills can work everywhere, compliance.
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    Okay, I got it now. So a scale indicating functional independence would look like this:

    most independend----------medium independent----------least independent
    -----Alpha----------------------Beta/Delta------------------Gamma------
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Alpha/Beta = Offense
    Gamma/Delta = Defense
    (i)NTFS

    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

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    pat generalizations = often wrong

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    there is also the issue that "violence" isn't a fool-proof description of what Se is about.
    Of course, it's also not just violence I was thinking of. Power, influence, territory, to resolutely make a stand against something, ect. I connect all this to Se. I thought in these 'roles' I was talking about, LIIs can become quite similar to LSIs.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Alpha/Beta = Offense
    Gamma/Delta = Defense
    How do you get to this idea?
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    How do you get to this idea?
    It's interesting how you ask for HOW you get to something?

    That would make you a process type...
    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Process

    That's why I'm so attracted to ILI, because of their Te. Because I prefer process over result.
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    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
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    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    It's interesting how you ask for HOW you get to something?
    Well, I'm just interested in the reasoning behind the statement. I also prefer to read books/watch films from the beginning to the end. That's also 'process'.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    Well, I'm just interested in the reasoning behind the statement. I also prefer to read books/watch films from the beginning to the end. That's also 'process'.
    It's odd that I huddle around process types more so than result even though result types are my close relations too, activity SLI, I don't really care to read or watch what the SLE are doing except on a rare occasion. Because, I find myself... (getting hungary and need to go to lunch ) BRB
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Felix Gaeta (a character from the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica TV show) might've been an INTj in my opinion. He became a revolutionary near the end, and got executed. Then again I could be wrong about his type...
    Last edited by HERO; 03-13-2011 at 08:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    The act of uprising and fighting the established rulers (or external aggressors) is stereotypically a Beta thing. This is probably connected to their / valuing. Especially the motivates people to rebel against, rather than endure, whatever is not okay, imho.

    But I read that a lot of LIIs were actually famous revolutionaries (Robespierre, Garibaldi, ect.) even if they have as polr. But shouldn't this actually make the individual hate violence (like INFjs)? The sense of justice comes from the leading , but aren't those actions more typical for LSIs?
    I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians typed a lot of LIIs as LSIs, judging from Weisband's description. You should trust your own judgment over some typing that someone made 25 years ago.

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    (i)NTFS

    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

    31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
    My work on Inert/Contact subtypes

    Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
    Socionics Tests Database
    Comprehensive List of Socionics Sites


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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians typed a lot of LIIs as LSIs, judging from Weisband's description. You should trust your own judgment over some typing that someone made 25 years ago.
    oops, that should be the other way around, obviously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    oops, that should be the other way around, obviously.
    I think the main difference between the two is that LIIs acknowledge that you most likely may have had no opportunity/possibility to read the Constitution/proclamation/rules while LISs don't. The LSI machine doesn't work for particular cases, therefore it's more efficient .
    (Se-Creative vs Ne-Creative)
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    The act of uprising and fighting the established rulers (or external aggressors) is stereotypically a Beta thing. This is probably connected to their / valuing. Especially the motivates people to rebel against, rather than endure, whatever is not okay, imho.

    But I read that a lot of LIIs were actually famous revolutionaries (Robespierre, Garibaldi, ect.) even if they have as polr. But shouldn't this actually make the individual hate violence (like INFjs)? The sense of justice comes from the leading , but aren't those actions more typical for LSIs?
    Im not about robespierre being LII. I dont know what his type is.

    Social paradigm shift is a beta thing, but why are you saying that it is linked only to and ? By that arguement, shouldnt gammas also be revolutionaries?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    Im not about robespierre being LII. I dont know what his type is.
    I'd believe he is LII. I've learned a bit about him at school (not very much, though). And I also know not every example which is chosen to represent a type is 100% undebatable but still, many socionists agreed that he is a clear LII.

    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    Social paradigm shift is a beta thing, but why are you saying that it is linked only to and ? By that arguement, shouldnt gammas also be revolutionaries?
    That would be the logical conclusion, yes. However, I don't see Gammas as revolutionaries like Betas, even though they also value /. I've thought could be used to 'see' about the further development of a nation/state and the potential of change that lies in the hands of the people. The might serve as the motivation to fight or protest rather than to do nothing. I'm not so sure about that.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post


    That would be the logical conclusion, yes. However, I don't see Gammas as revolutionaries like Betas, even though they also value /. I've thought could be used to 'see' about the further development of a nation/state and the potential of change that lies in the hands of the people. The might serve as the motivation to fight or protest rather than to do nothing. I'm not so sure about that.
    So how exactly does and keep one from being a revolutionary all the while valueing and ? Or that precisscly what you're not sure about?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    Or that precisscly what you're not sure about?
    Yeah. I think I haven't put enough though in this thread from the beginning. I actually didn't think much about Gamma because I mainly wondered about the 'revolutionary' mind of LIIs and their -polr, which should actually cause them to avoid confrontation. But a revolution, an uprising against the state, so to speak, is definitely a confrontation. I can't really tell why Betas appear to be more revolutionary compared to Gamma even though they share two valued functions, sorry.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    ok
    Thunderbolt
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