Ethnosocionics

[Timeless]

Derived from this: http://www.socionics.us/practice/ethnosocionics.shtml

Do you believe there are leading elements in countries? I don't think Rick is trying to say "every" person from the United States, or the country by itself must be/represents -valuing. I think what he was getting at is that there is a pretty high likelihood of people being so, or at least the way the society portrays and is built upon can be seen that way. For example, simplifying the US from popular culture: Rags to riches, American Dream, Rosa Parks, Space Race, Capitalism, IMO sounds like + .

I don't intend this thread to be a history lesson as it can severely get off topic, and I know there a billion of factors that come into play; culture, state, city, neighborhood, people, parents, upbringing, the fat kid who says "O'Doyle Rules!" but if I were to rephrase the question:

If countries were IM(s) what do you think they would be?

[Timeless]

I think 'ethnosocionics types' evolve over time through the course of quadra progression. For example, while the original formative influences of the USA in the 1700s might have been β/γ, modern USA in the 2000s in more of a δ-α hybrid. Though there's been a lot of fluctuations in between.

That's pretty true, I didn't think about the progression. I was mainly trying to sum it up overall or at least to present (~100y) times.

This is what I roughly think so far:

Mexico: +
France: +
Denmark: +
Japan: +

[Jonathan]

I think it has to do with what elements come to the fore. It's similar to styles over time. In the late 18th century, it was fashionable to emphasize Te and to be very rational and "enlightened." In the 19th century, Beta was very much in style. 20th century art began to suppress all forms of feeling (esp. Fe) with "modernism" and emphasize Ne above all other values.

But that doesn't mean that the population changed in those ways. Nevertheless, I think that people who don't match the fashion of their time and place may need to work a little harder at gaining recognition. That's why certain places and times seem to have a type bias.

[jughead]

I've always wanted to move to France.

[Creepy-male]

I thought the idea of ethnosocionics was that it adds a surface level to people of a given culture, and also that a culture will have IM-ascribable traits. Australia is a fairly conservative, xenophobic Delta nation, and our cultural focus on horizontal loyalty over the "system" (and the characteristics of the system itself) all seem to point to us being SLI.

I think due to the unique cultures that tend to form in individual cities, they can be typed as well. Though they'll always be coloured by the nation's integral type.

Compared to Sydney, Perth is really relaxed. And small. And conservative. We're like the grandma city. I think Sydney is Te dominant, where Perth is the quintessential SLI city.

Then there's Canberra. Canberra is ¹/₃rd students, ¹/₃rd public servants, and ¹/₃rd kangaroos

[Creepy-male]

American Capitalism:
German Efficiency:
Nazi Germany: +
European Romanticism: Beta
European Enlightenment: Alpha
Industrial Revolution: Gamma
Dawn of Modernism: Delta
American Dream:
Bavaria: +
English Propriety: +
1950's America: +
1930's America: (Beta/Gamma)
Rural Texas: +
Russian Communism: +
Japanese Entertainment and Modern Culture: Alpha
Chinese Industry/Business: Gamma
France: , ,
Switzerland: Alpha
Vienna: Alpha NT + Beta NF
Mediterrian: +
Mexico:
Columbia:
1960's America: Delta/Alpha Hippies + LSD + McCarthism (Gamma) + Civil Rights Movement
1970's America: 1960's America with Disco and Civil Rights
1980's America: , , Materialism, Cocaine, Cheesy Action Movies, Reagan, Hiphop/Rap begins, Big Hair, Safety Dance, Karate Kid
1990's America: Hiphop/Rap/RnB, Seinfeld, Sitcoms, Still Cheesy Action Movies, Materialism without the Cocaine, Teh Internet, Boy/Girl Bands, Communism Falls
2000's America: Reality TV, Bush Administration, Emo subculture emerges, school shooters, Internet/Technology comes into its own, Fall of the boy/girl bands -- rise of disney channel

[FDG]

How can Switerzland be alpha? It's as as it can be.

[Timeless]

Nazi Germany: +

100% Agree.

I thought the idea of ethnosocionics was that it adds a surface level to people of a given culture, and also that a culture will have IM-ascribable traits. Australia is a fairly conservative, xenophobic Delta nation, and our cultural focus on horizontal loyalty over the "system" (and the characteristics of the system itself) all seem to point to us being SLI.

I think due to the unique cultures that tend to form in individual cities, they can be typed as well. Though they'll always be coloured by the nation's integral type.

Compared to Sydney, Perth is really relaxed. And small. And conservative. We're like the grandma city. I think Sydney is Te dominant, where Perth is the quintessential SLI city.

Then there's Canberra. Canberra is ¹/₃rd students, ¹/₃rd public servants, and ¹/₃rd kangaroos

Rocko!

Well, yeah. In that case, San Francisco is very much . Probably + unlike in the 60's where it was + .

North Korea: +
South Korea: +
India: +
Jamaica: +
Russia: +
Ukraine: +
Greece:
Egypt:
Colombia:

[stray]

Rural Texas: +

That's funny (kind of). I might be Delta NF, but I live near Rural Texas. I can't hang around people with that particular mindset. Ever heard the song China Grove? I don't live far from there actually.

But every day there's a new thing comin'
the ways of an oriental view
The sheriff and his buddies
with their samurai swords
you can even hear the music at night
And though it's a part
of the Lone Star State
people don't seem to care
They just keep on lookin' to the East

[Pa3s]

Nazi Germany: +

100% Agree.

Yeah, that's commonly accepted, but what is it today? Still ? And if you consider the the time of pre-1990, what's East and West Germany?

Germany has exactly 16 federal countries (including city states) so it would be enough for every type. However, I doubt we find a fitting one for the whole socion.

[The Ineffable]

I like you associations overall, though I think (without having an opinion on everything):

American Dream: American Dream: Delta
Japanese Entertainment and Modern Culture: Alpha Japanese Entertainment and Modern Culture: Delta
Switzerland: Alpha / Switzerland: Delta

About Switzerland, they're stereotypical-historically Delta-ish, though I admit that modern Switzerland sounds rather Alpha: science, research, innovation. What a Delta would call "useless crap".

North Korea: +

Certainly not, it's
---

@MegaDoomer: yea I agree with nowdays Germany that it's too strongly Ti and Fe - much less visible the other elements to me, but rather Se/Ni (some extravagant elements in the culture, esp in the West: bondage, goth stuff, piercing, weird shows, freakish stuff, shininess, neatness, artificial).

[Exodus]

Most rural areas have an emphasis on .

[krieger]

The whole idea that modern day Germany is ISTj or generally Beta is overrated. It's a country operating in the philosophy of a social-democratic European nation with a very strong christian-democrat element, both of which have overwhelming delta influences. The country is still very much reeling from it's dark ages of beta dominance and trying to compensate for these on many levels.

[Pa3s]

About Switzerland, they're stereotypical-historically Delta-ish, though I admit that modern Switzerland sounds rather Alpha: science, research, innovation. What a Delta would call "useless crap".

Agreed.

@MegaDoomer: yea I agree with nowdays Germany that it's too strongly Ti and Fe - much less visible the other elements to me, but rather Se/Ni (some extravagant elements in the culture, esp in the West: bondage, goth stuff, piercing, weird shows, freakish stuff, shininess, neatness, artificial).

Well, there is probably still a lot of Ti, which is especially visible from a American point of view since they're typically more Te as a Gamma culture. I don't actually know where that stereotype of 'kinky sex stuff' comes from, I don't think it's much more liberal than in other countries.

The whole idea that modern day Germany is ISTj or generally Beta is overrated. It's a country operating in the philosophy of a social-democratic European nation with a very strong christian-democrat element, both of which have overwhelming delta influences. The country is still very much reeling from it's dark ages of beta dominance and trying to compensate for these on many levels.

Yes, I agree. That's why I questioned that the culture could still be seen as typically . It's harder to type nowadays, I don't have a suggestions spontaneously.

[stray]

Why would Deltas consider research/science useless? :\ Just curious. I'm not a scientist (maybe not even Delta), but I'm intrigued myself. How could anyone not be (not a question.. I know people like that).

edit: I'm typing this while watching Michio Kaku btw

[Exodus]

An EII friend of mine posted this on facebook a while back:

Germany prob isn't an ideal place for me to live, b/c I can see how little I have in common with them, in terms of lifestyle and thinking. I really can't see how I can bear to spend time with Nietzsche-like folks for more than one hour per week, for the sake of my sanity. My ideal place is prob somewhere like England, USA or South Korea.

[1981slater]

As a Spaniard, I can tell you Spain is SEE.

The types of nations has been briefly discussed in previous threads

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ead.php?t=8390

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=30053


USA Ne-ENTp
Russia Ti-ENTp
Canada Ne-INTj
Japan Te-ESTj
China Se-ISTj
Germany Ti-ISTj
Spain Se-ESFp
France Si-ESFj
England Te-INTp
Ireland Fe-ISFp
Belgium Si-ISFp
Holland Ni-ENTj
Italy Se-ESTp
Turkey Ti-ESTp
Australia Te-ISTp
Brazil Se-ESFp
Argentina Fi-ESFp
Finland Ti-ENTp
Sweden Fi-ISFj
Norway Si-ISTp
Denmark Te-ENTj

[1981slater]

Inside countries there are differences too:

Germany
-Bayern: Beta
-Prußen: Delta

Spain
-Center: Beta
-North, West: Delta
-South: Alpha
-East: Gamma

etc etc

[stray]

They're just aggrandizing their own quadra at the expense of others. Typical silly shit.

Coincidentally, of the 4 people I know of here who work directly in scientific fields, all are self-typed Deltas.

Hmm..

On another note, I was just listening to NPR the other day, and there was a German guy touching upon the relative lack of home/property ownership there. While that's one of the chief concerns with people in the UK or USA. Secondly, they tend to "buy german" a lot. Not sure if that indicates anything though.

Italy doesn't strike me as Se, but Si. Good food, big families, kind of rustic atmospheres, good looking women riding topless on scooters (or maybe not ).. they're just chillin'. Perhaps the Vatican is Se though?

[Pa3s]

They're just aggrandizing their own quadra at the expense of others. Typical silly shit.

Well, it's exaggerated to claim Deltas would abhor anything related to science or research (they still have as valued function). But Deltas are not exactly known as the advocates of progress. Maybe it's just another stereotype but a negative (dependent on your point of view of course) trait of Delta is that they are very 'backward' as you can see it in the Amish. They would stick to the old and known rather than come up with something new because they don't know where it might lead them.

[1981slater]

Hmm..

On another note, I was just listening to NPR the other day, and there was a German guy touching upon the relative lack of home/property ownership there. While that's one of the chief concerns with people in the UK or USA. Secondly, they tend to "buy german" a lot. Not sure if that indicates anything though.

Italy doesn't strike me as Se, but Si. Good food, big families, kind of rustic atmospheres, good looking women riding topless on scooters (or maybe not ).. they're just chillin'. Perhaps the Vatican is Se though?

Compare the South of Italy and the North. I guess FDG would say they look different planets.

[stray]

Well, it's exaggerated to claim Deltas would abhor anything related to science or research (they still have as valued function). But Deltas are not exactly known as the advocates of progress. Maybe it's just another stereotype but a negative (dependent on your point of view of course) trait of Delta is that they are very 'backward' as you can see it in the Amish. They would stick to the old and known rather than come up with something new because they don't know where it might lead them.

Hmm, Amish is definitely not a goal in my life. Actually, the more I think of Italy, the more Monica Bellucci pops in my head. And the more I think I need to move to Italy than rural Pennsylvania.

[Singu]

Why do people keep saying that Germany is Beta? I have many reasons to think that it is rather Delta...:

- Germany highly values punctuality and sees it as a sense of loyalty - Ni PoLR and Delta Fi

- Germany values straightforwardness in speech and demeanor, and not shiftiness - Delta ST

- Germany is rather conservative and doesn't like risks that much. Rules are important so that things flow more smoothly - apparently, Delta is more "conservative" (not in a political sense). I tentatively agree. On the other hand, Betas are disruptors and like "revolutions" and such, while Deltas don't like to "rock the boat". I would think that either sides would find each other rather obnoxious.

- Germany values high-quality goods - Delta Te

- Germany values attention to details, thoroughness and meticulousness - Delta Te

- Hard-work ethics - Te, particularly Delta Te

- The way you address a person differs based on hierarchical relationship ranks - Delta Fi

I'd say the "weirdness" is more Delta Ne - Delta values unusual and interesting people.

Many people might think that these are the "stereotypes" of LSI values, but actually, they are Delta values.

[Pa3s]

Hmm, Amish is definitely not a goal in my life.

Yeah, this was another exaggerated example. But I think this is Delta lifestyle taken to the (unhealthy?) extreme.

@Singularity:
Interesting list but I'd still say it's >. The way people here treat laws and general rules makes me think they're taken very literally and not in a more practical sense, like Te would do. Take pedestrian lights as an example: You'd see that the majority of people will wait until it turns green, no matter if there's a car or not. And if someone crosses the street while it's red I already saw policemen shouting "are you blind?". True story.

[Creepy-male]

Heh, yeah, here in Australia, the red man is a sign of "look for cars", not "do not cross".

Britain is apparently a good example of how Te deals with legislation and formalities.

[stray]

But I think this is Delta lifestyle taken to the (unhealthy?) extreme.

I suppose it's possible. I'd like to get away from it though, whatever it is. I was just mentioning in the hometown/local city thread, that my own locale feels like that. While if you drive up to Austin just up the road, it's as if all the ENFps or ISFps live there. It's bohemian. Plus, the tech industry there is probably full of NT types (I know some that are at least).

[The Ineffable]

I don't actually know where that stereotype of 'kinky sex stuff' comes from, I don't think it's much more liberal than in other countries.

Hmm I don't know if it's a stereotype, that opinion is based on my observations along the time. Watching television, streets, festivals. German bands appear to me more "polished" and rich in accessories and glamor. What I can think of now: Wacken, the Leipzig goth festival, Rammstein, very rich entertainment and accessories industry, hmm there were more... Btw, check this out: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikiped...stival#Germany and compare with the other countries, even if they're probably not all up-to-date .
IIRC not once I saw company officials and other otherwise "serious" Germans covered with tattoos, piercing and different stuff, which I don't remember seeing somewhere else (or maybe not so much). As far as I can tell, only about Japan I could tell that it's above in the ostentatiousness of this "thing". As far as I can tell, many Japanese dye their hair, though I never been there myself .

Germany = steel and glamor .

(Oh, and a little detail, maybe it's not typical, but part of my experience: at one night outdoor concert, the German spectators came all dressed in black carrying combat helmets. Right before the headliners began playing, they all got up from where they were scattered and formed a phalanx/troop in the front, standing there until the end, roaring concurrently. It was really cool though a bit intimidating, they appeared like some sort of force of nature.)

[The Ineffable]

They're just aggrandizing their own quadra at the expense of others. Typical silly shit.

I don't know what all this "they" is, but I'm talking from my experience. My close Deltas: father, brother, two exes, mother-in-law. All things that I talk to them has to have a connection with their daily life, an use, a practical or at least human purpose. Exaggerating of course, I'd say that my SF girlfriend is more interested in science than they all put together. My IEE father bought a huge amount of books of all fields and knew a lot of mainstream science facts, though I'd not call that scientific inclinations, as he was rather learning than researching or exploring new directions.

To claim that I was aggrandizing my quadra means that you consider science to be "greater" somehow, thing that IMO is relative and subjective. I indeed consider science-related topics the coolest, but not necessarily greater than say sport, business, whatever.

Edit: besides, Ashton, even if our experiences don't coincide, the stereotype refers to the Delta as a quadra, descriptions and values.

Coincidentally, of the 4 people I know of here who work directly in scientific fields, all are self-typed Deltas.

Well said, "they work". You don't talk about the same thing as me.

[Pa3s]

Germany = steel and glamor .

...for some it's more Blood & Honour, I suppose.

(Oh, and a little detail, maybe it's not typical, but part of my experience: at one night outdoor concert, the German spectators came all dressed in black carrying combat helmets. Right before the headliners began playing, they all got up from where they were scattered and formed a phalanx/troop in the front, standing there until the end, roaring concurrently. It was really cool though a bit intimidating, they appeared like some sort of force of nature.)

[Singu]

I would say that adherence to rigid rules and structures and orderliness are more Delta than Ti. I know that's what's stereotyped... but in actuality, I don't actually think that Ti is all that rigid.

Read this description of LSE:

4. Belief in playing fair. He considers obedience to rules to be a strength trait. He does not tolerate slyness and deviousness, hates cheaters and dodgy folks. "Political maneuvers may produce a quick effect, but a truly lasting and tangible results can be reached only through hard work" (Kim Philby). He likes order. Having bought a new thing, he will for sure read the manual and only then will switch it on. The famous traveler Roald Amundsen managed to avoid extreme situations all his life. "Victory awaits those who keep things orderly”, he used to say, “and this is what we call good fortune". A believer in honest labour. "If everything seems to be easy, this is an infallible evidence that the worker is far from being skilled and that the work is above his competence" (Leonardo Da Vinci).

I'd say that many Deltas countries have rather rigid social rules and regulations, and they expect obedience to these rules.

It's also a typical LSI trait (Ni-HA)

Not sure, but typically you read that XSEs are highly punctual, and expect punctuality in others.

Or Ni/Se.

No, it has almost nothing to do with Ni/Se. It's important for Delta Te to have high-quality things. I'm not really sure why, yet. Maybe it's the Aristocracy.

Way too broad to apply to a whole country. Doesn't every company value these things?

Not really. I consider myself to be a fairly thorough and meticulous person... but not in the way that some Deltas are. Some Deltas go through the same thing over and over and over and over again... until they get it right. And they have to make sure that everything is right and correct. What they go through is sometimes unbelievable. I don't really have that kind of patience that some Deltas have.

I'd say hard-work ethics is usually Te and EJ...

Another description of LSE:

2. "All I do is done well". One more quotation: "There is a gift which is always characteristic of great baseball players and teams. This is onslaught. This is the capability to run more rapidly then one is required to, to move more quickly than one is required to, to be more impertinent than one is required to” (Ph.Brooks). Initiative is habitual to him; he is decisive, likes to be the center of attention. He defends his ideas with guts and fervor. In front of his superiors he is not shy, even becomes aggressive. He knows that business only then goes perfectly if the necessary tempo is set from the very beginning. He does not tolerate procrastination, is an ardent struggler for quality and thoroughness in all work. A good army officer. Like Thomas Edison, a representative of this type is capable of working 19.5 hours a day.

Simple linguistic evolution. It's somewhat true of English too. (Mr, Professor, your Honour...). Also, externally imposed hierarchies are more likely to be Ti than Fi.

Well what I mean is that it differs on the level of familiarity, etc, so that's more Fi. It may or may not be a valid point.

Depending on what "weirdness" you're referring to, it could be Fe. See e.g. beta creative types in the Berlin underground - Nina Hagen, Nick Cave and Blixa Bargeld come to mind.

Yeah, it depends. I know that many Beta types are "weird". But... I don't know, it's not the same kind of weird, I guess. I can't really explain it clearly right now.

[The Ineffable]

I know it's unusual . Details on PM.

[Singu]

LSIs often keep dense notes to remind them of their future engagements, as well as directions as to how to do complex tasks. Lateness and incorrectness are almost taboo for the LSI, and to err in these ways can make the LSI unhappy with whoever has transgressed, even with themselves.

Ok, but what is the source of this? Is this from "official" Socionics? Sorry for being skeptical, but I don't really trust Wikisocion, lol. They are written by just about anyone.

My point is that wanting high-quality things isn't restricted to Delta Te. I agree that they do - every delta ST I know seems to want a high-end hi-fi system - but wanting high-quality things can also be a sign of Ni/Se. Wanting statement pieces that fulfill their role with style, and are going to make a lasting impression on others, and won't crap out on you when you need it - that's classic beta. That one piece of evidence can be interpreted multiple ways.

Well, I don't mean high-quality as wanting high-end things and the likes. I mean high-quality as in things that are robust, reliable, things with a lot of attention to details. Or it could simply mean high-quality as in having good taste, aesthetics or stylishness.

German products are often stereotyped as having high-quality... and maybe there's some truth to that. It's the meticulousness and attentions to details of Deltas that produce high-quality goods.

I'd say so too, and I think that's the general consensus, but you can't just say Germany as a whole values these things, or that only deltas do. I would say all employers in all countries value that trait when picking someone for a promotion.

Well, maybe the better word would be something like "productive" or "practical". Te Quadras types, are definitely not as interested in "frivolous" things as Ti Quadra types. Perhaps this is the difference between Subjective/Objective (aka Merry/Serious) Quadras.

[Rick]

I barely think of countries in terms of integral types anymore. Culture is to a large degree determined by things like geography, economy, and current demographics. I find these concrete factors to provide more insight than socionics.

Expat and I had a good hashing out of this subject in Germany some years ago, when we spoke of cultural types vs. the stage of development or "quadra progression" or whatever you want to call it. One can think of Germany today as being a LSI type culture in a Delta stage of development, whereas in the Nazi era it was in a Beta stage. But why is it LSI in the first place?

If the U.S.'s cultural type is LIE, why do we expect our politicians to be entertaining, as if we were a leading culture? Answers can be found only by examining trends in the economy and technology. Perhaps in a decaying empire people need "bread and circuses" to keep them involved in politics at all.

I have spent time in a lot of different countries and believe I could live in any of them. Each has its good and bad points, and none is ideal.

[Singu]

Well what I find interesting... is that imo, two different cultures with the same quadra type are somewhat similar in many ways, in holding similar values, etc. They may even have the exact same kind of peculiarity within the culture.

[Gilly]

"The American Dream" is Ni/Se as fuuuuuck. Also France is more SiFe than NiFe.

[EyeSeeCold]

"The American Dream" is Ni/Se as fuuuuuck. Also France is more SiFe than NiFe.

The American Dream is an objective concept that refers to a subjective experience. /.

[Gilly]

Wow, way to use being insanely general to your self-deluding advantage...

The American Dream is basically to overcome all obstacles you are faced with and accrue personal power. Ni/Se.

[glam]

The American Dream is an objective concept that refers to a subjective experience. /.

the idea of the American Dream is to work hard in order to prosper and acquire wealth (Te + Se), and being able to do this no matter what your cultural, racial, religious, etc. background may be (Democratic > Aristocratic). in other words, Gamma.

[Gilly]

Yar.

The US is essentially founded upon Gamma precepts, although today it's really too big, diverse, and disparate to be anything but Delta, currently trending to Alpha culturally.

[Exodus]

Wow, way to use being insanely general to your self-deluding advantage...

The American Dream is basically to overcome all obstacles you are faced with and accrue personal power. Ni/Se.

QFT