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    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
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    Default Ti and Fi

    The most important teaching of socionics is that we all see reality distorted according to our personal preferences. And only those who are different from us are capable of noticing it.

    Since I'm a Fi valuer myself, it is my turn to explain how deformed the views of the Ti valuers are.

    Ti is small scale logics and Fi is large scale logics. A Ti valuer has a natural tendency to analyze stuff in a detached way. Sees a statement and any given information and determines wheter there is coherence, validity and the like. Ti is the ability to present ideas in a way they require nothing else to be understood; encapsulated.

    Fi valuers, however, do not communicate in such a way. Fi valuers have an intelligence which is associative and when presenting an idea, they simply share the filter which arranged the existing information in an specific way (Fi). Their natural interlocutor is a Te valuer, who knows a lot of information and uses the Fi filter to arrange his own information in that particular way, to arrive to the same conclusion the Fi valuer has. Te valuers analyze the factual aspect of the communication and notice when an association is being made on false grounds. They use Ti, but it is subordinated to Te.

    When Fi and Ti types do not understand each other, it is always because Ti valuers are unable to compensate for information which is not explicitely shared (because they use Te, but it is ultimately subordinated to Ti), or are unable to build their own frameworks to understand the relationship between raw information when there is none given explicitely.

    Conclusion: Ti is the innability to understand complex ways to handle information.
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    you can go to where your heart is Galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Since I'm a Fi valuer myself, it is my turn to explain how deformed the views of the Ti valuers are.


    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Conclusion: Ti is the innability to understand complex ways to handle information.
    lol what

    Both Fi and Ti egos are equally capable of understanding complexity in dealing with information; it's just that they do it in different, incompatible ways. You can't honestly say that Ti egos can't understand complex ways of handling information because they do, just in ways you can't understand.
    Last edited by Galen; 02-16-2011 at 05:42 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    The most important teaching of socionics is that we all see reality distorted according to our personal preferences. And only those who are different from us are capable of noticing it.

    Since I'm a Fi valuer myself, it is my turn to explain how deformed the views of the Ti valuers are.

    Ti is small scale logics and Fi is large scale logics. A Ti valuer has a natural tendency to analyze stuff in a detached way. Sees a statement and any given information and determines wheter there is coherence, validity and the like. Ti is the ability to present ideas in a way they require nothing else to be understood; encapsulated.

    Fi valuers, however, do not communicate in such a way. Fi valuers have an intelligence which is associative and when presenting an idea, they simply share the filter which arranged the existing information in an specific way (Fi). Their natural interlocutor is a Te valuer, who knows a lot of information and uses the Fi filter to arrange his own information in that particular way, to arrive to the same conclusion the Fi valuer has. Te valuers analyze the factual aspect of the communication and notice when an association is being made on false grounds. They use Ti, but it is subordinated to Te.

    When Fi and Ti types do not understand each other, it is always because Ti valuers are unable to compensate for information which is not explicitely shared (because they use Te, but it is ultimately subordinated to Ti), or are unable to build their own frameworks to understand the relationship between raw information when there is none given explicitely.

    Conclusion: Ti is the innability to understand complex ways to handle information.
    BLAH BLAH BLAH. This whole post can be summed up as:

    HEY GUYS! I'M AN FI-VALUER, SO I'M BETTER THAN YOU!

    You do not understand large-scale socionics, and are misusing it to justify why you're better than people.

    Not all Ti-valuers have "deformed views". It would be healthier if you considered that some of the people you disagree with perhaps could still be in your own quadra, and not use socionics to justify why your views are better than others.

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    UMADBRO???

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    Imagine Timeless's Avatar
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    Even if you value something, it doesn't mean it is the only right way and the other other way is wrong, or in other words; & may be different, but they not better or worse than one another.

    That goes for all IMs actually.

     
    Rules! Drools.

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    oh that was to OP not you MD, lol, that was ridiculous xD

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    When Fi and Ti types do not understand each other, it is always because Ti valuers are unable to compensate for information which is not explicitly shared (because they use Te, but it is ultimately subordinated to Ti), or are unable to build their own frameworks to understand the relationship between raw information when there is none given explicitly.
    THAT in particular is just..... LOL. BECAUSE WHEN AN FI VALUER AND A TI VALUER DON'T UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER IT IS BECAUSE OF THE TI VALUER. i am giggling so much right now. you're hilarious.

  7. #7
    Creepy-Snaps

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    UMADBRO???
    Yes. Very much so. Hypocritical people.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    The most important teaching of socionics is that we all see reality distorted according to our personal preferences.
    People who don't realize they are ironically distorting reality to make a false statement how others distort reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Conclusion: Ti is the innability to understand complex ways to handle information.
    Conclusion: Sometimes we all understand complex ideas that we think won't be comprehensible by other types. It doesn't mean that other people's opinions are "deformed" if they're just different.

  8. #8
    Creepy-Snaps

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Since I'm a Fi valuer myself, it is my turn to explain how deformed the views of the Ti valuers are.
    And that is just pure arrogance.

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    lol @ mikemex's ego. just lololol at the arrogant ego thinking its better.

    When anybody attacks with their ego, it means their true self is hurt. Wanna talk about it mikemex?

    Now she'll just say 'You're using your Fe to judge my post as emotionally arrogant when there isn't really the issue' or something like that. The things people do to excuse themselves of being assholes.

    Just more fuel for my art. Keep it coming guys. You're gonna make me famous one day.

  10. #10
    Creepy-Snaps

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    oh that was to OP not you MD, lol, that was ridiculous xD



    THAT in particular is just..... LOL. BECAUSE WHEN AN FI VALUER AND A TI VALUER DON'T UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER IT IS BECAUSE OF THE TI VALUER. i am giggling so much right now. you're hilarious.
    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    lol @ mikemex's ego. just lololol at the arrogant ego thinking its better.

    When anybody attacks with their ego, it means their true self is hurt. Wanna talk about it mikemex?

    Now she'll just say 'You're using your Fe to judge my post as emotionally arrogant when there isn't really the issue' or something like that. The things people do to excuse themselves of being assholes.

    Just more fuel for my art. Keep it coming guys. You're gonna make me famous one day.
    IEIs. You both relax me. It is more a lol thing, I shouldn't have been so harsh.

    Sorry mikemex that, for whatever reason you drew your conclusions, you were misunderstood. Obviously your ideas and insight are important. Obviously you'll get things that others won't. But it doesn't mean your ideas are better than others, that's all.

    Sorry you've been misunderstood. Or are perhaps surrounded by people whose views are so different than your own. There are a lot of stupid people out there, that's for sure.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    You guys are having an obvious conflictory type argument. Don't you think you should leave this thread alone DW?
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Ti is small scale logics and Fi is large scale logics.

    ....

    Conclusion: Ti is the innability to understand complex ways to handle information.
    lol gg .







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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    You guys are having an obvious conflictory type argument. Don't you think you should leave this thread alone DW?
    I'm not LSI Maritsa. If you wish to discuss my type, please follow the link in my signature.

    Super-Egos can argue too. So can Mirrors. Duals. Any type. You're making the same mistake mikemex made and pointing to socionics immediately and making generalizations.

    Surely you wouldn't let someone go ahead and think their type is better than everyone else's?

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    I for one appreciated this. Subjective descriptions of functions are quite useful, and we have had an unbalanced share of Ti valuers highlighting all the flaws of Fi. And while, of course, I gladly assert that any type is capable of complex thinking, I think I see, to a degree, what you mean: Ti is incapable of understanding implicit information, framework information. Fi gives the framework and assumes the content inputs. Ti has to see each place where the content and framework interact, meticulously. Also, Ti tends not to operate on the heuristic (of how to reason, or how to interpret data), but is the application of the heuristic (of interpretation) to the data. (Of course, Ti can and does generate heuristical maxims of how to do something, from experience, especially TiSe). So what's the natural fit of Ti, then?

    Implicit goes to complex; explicit goes to simple. I like it.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

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    The most important teaching of socionics is that we all see reality distorted according to our personal preferences.
    Not always true. Anybody can train themselves to be objective if they try hard enough. It just takes more effort, and most people are lazy by default, so we operate on ego-basis reality. Also there really isn't much point in being objective, unless you're making art or something. (the subjective perception mixed with the objective reality)

    There doesn't seem to be any self-gain for being objective that way, so most people don't do it. But really, it's the only thing that ever makes anyone happy.

    All an individual does is have to *try* and work at it. It's spiritually satisfying undoing your own ego and your own projections about things. Like for example your perception that you think in a more complicated and sophisticated way than me.

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    Slippery when wet Simon Ssmall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    The most important teaching of socionics is that we all see reality distorted according to our personal preferences. And only those who are different from us are capable of noticing it.

    Since I'm a Fi valuer myself, it is my turn to explain how deformed the views of the Ti valuers are.

    Ti is small scale logics and Fi is large scale logics. A Ti valuer has a natural tendency to analyze stuff in a detached way. Sees a statement and any given information and determines wheter there is coherence, validity and the like. Ti is the ability to present ideas in a way they require nothing else to be understood; encapsulated.

    Fi valuers, however, do not communicate in such a way. Fi valuers have an intelligence which is associative and when presenting an idea, they simply share the filter which arranged the existing information in an specific way (Fi). Their natural interlocutor is a Te valuer, who knows a lot of information and uses the Fi filter to arrange his own information in that particular way, to arrive to the same conclusion the Fi valuer has. Te valuers analyze the factual aspect of the communication and notice when an association is being made on false grounds. They use Ti, but it is subordinated to Te.

    When Fi and Ti types do not understand each other, it is always because Ti valuers are unable to compensate for information which is not explicitely shared (because they use Te, but it is ultimately subordinated to Ti), or are unable to build their own frameworks to understand the relationship between raw information when there is none given explicitely.

    Conclusion: Ti is the innability to understand complex ways to handle information.
    You are a sad sad person.
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    Robot Assassin Pa3s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Ti is small scale logics and Fi is large scale logics.
    Fi people think logically? Didn't know...

    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Ti is a small penis logic.

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    C-ESI-Se 6w7 sx/sp ashlesha's Avatar
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    lmfao

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    OTOH, Ti PoLRs are deformed because they can't lay out their reasoning on the table in the name of clear communication.

    See what I did there?

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Fi is the function that levels a carnal reaction toward the area of complex issues. It is probably the most unequivocally stupid function.

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    Flame War aside, I have a serious question. Based on what logic is any given element more efficient at identifying (or describing) any other element? Based on my understanding, each of the information elements is capable of identifying the belying behaviors of each of the other elements.

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    There isn't much to add to this thread, really. Every element has its handicaps and its strengths; to say " sucks, and my favored IME is so much better," is kinda stupid. types apparently feel that way about your favored IME, too.

    ----------------

    *hands MD a sedative*
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    It's no longer a dating site, so why aren't you joining now?
    Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.

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    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
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    Your own prejudice. I never claimed to be any better, I just said that being Fi myself I can pinpoint exactly how Ti valuers deform reality. Where did I say that I don't deform it myself?

    I just say that there are two and not one, aspects to truth: coherence (form) and empirical validity (substance). It is a common issue among Ti valuers to take for granted that the logical consistency of an statement automatically makes it either true or false. We all know what happens then one applies sound logic to absurd things: the theological discussions of the middle age are a good example.

    See this:

    Quote Originally Posted by W.I.E. Gates
    Then there is the man who drowned while crossing a stream that was, on average, 6 inches deep.
    Such confusion comes from the fact that Ti valuers analyze stuff in a detached way, this is, without a broader context in mind. But why this happens is more interesting. Logic is exacting and thus impractical for handling complexity, simply because complexity means a large number of variables and the more the variables, the more the processing power requiered. People such as Ray Kurzweil (ILE) go as far as to claim that the issue of artificial intelligence is mere brute force, which is ignorant, to say the least. This is the deformation of reality I was talking about: Kurzweil presents the problem the way he understands it, assuming it is the only way.

    If logical analysis is one form of thinking what is the other? Well, it is statistical analysis. Statistics exchanges small scale coherence for large scale efficiency. Thus, Fi valuers are capable of handling an almost infninite number of variables at the expense of not being exacting. Think in terms of digital vs analog recordings.

    My point remains: True complexity is the field of competence of Fi valuers.
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    Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction
    Albert Einstein
    I agree that Fi valuers make things complicated, and Ti valuers simplify things.

    Relationships are Complicated
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    So fluffeh. Cuddly McFluffles's Avatar
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    Complaining about black-and-white thinking and not accounting for variables sounds like a valued/devalued issue, not vs .
    Johari/Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Conclusion: Ti is the innability to understand complex ways to handle information.
    Fuck you.

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    I still like these:
    Ti = Mental Caregiver / Emotional Victim
    Fi = Emotional Caregiver / Mental Victim
    "Stupid" might actually be a good word for the unhealthy end of the Fi spectrum, but it is not all that makes up the function.
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    I think that rather than say "distorted views of reality," the OP should have said "biased views of reality". Clearly, we see or seek some aspects of reality, and do not see or seek other aspects of reality. Our perceptions of reality are based primarily on the Ego block and the Demonstrative function (or at least, that is how I understand it), and since information of all the IM elements exists, I think "bias" is a suitable word to describe how we tailor reality to fit our predominant elements and avoid information from elements we don't like.

    Even still... I can't say I agree with the OP. Where are you coming to your conclusions; on what data?

    Also, there is clear arrogance and bias in your post which makes me question whether you are presenting information factually without putting your own interpretation on it.

    My conclusion is that your conclusion essentially has no basis and is merely a product of extreme personal bias or misunderstanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    The most important teaching of socionics is that we all see reality distorted according to our personal preferences. And only those who are different from us are capable of noticing it.

    Since I'm a Fi valuer myself, it is my turn to explain how deformed the views of the Ti valuers are.

    Ti is small scale logics and Fi is large scale logics. A Ti valuer has a natural tendency to analyze stuff in a detached way. Sees a statement and any given information and determines wheter there is coherence, validity and the like. Ti is the ability to present ideas in a way they require nothing else to be understood; encapsulated.

    Fi valuers, however, do not communicate in such a way. Fi valuers have an intelligence which is associative and when presenting an idea, they simply share the filter which arranged the existing information in an specific way (Fi). Their natural interlocutor is a Te valuer, who knows a lot of information and uses the Fi filter to arrange his own information in that particular way, to arrive to the same conclusion the Fi valuer has. Te valuers analyze the factual aspect of the communication and notice when an association is being made on false grounds. They use Ti, but it is subordinated to Te.

    When Fi and Ti types do not understand each other, it is always because Ti valuers are unable to compensate for information which is not explicitely shared (because they use Te, but it is ultimately subordinated to Ti), or are unable to build their own frameworks to understand the relationship between raw information when there is none given explicitely.

    Conclusion: Ti is the innability to understand complex ways to handle information.
    I disagree. On a societal level, Ti and Fi are symbiotic. Fi is the rock upon which society is built. It accepts the fundamental reactions that it is programmed to have by its' culture and surroundings and proceeds to blindly obey them. Now you might be thinking that sounds awful, and without considering its purpose in the greater scheme of things, it would be. The point is a stagnant society will die, but so will one what changes too rapidly, which is exactly what Ti does, examining things for their actual value without cultural or emotional context, driving evolution, but left untempered this could easily lead to destruction with the implementation of a few ideas that are a little bit off kilter, and that is why you Fi rocks provide the perfect medium for Ti to sculpt the future upon, not too soft. We wouldn't want to get overeager and chip away too fast lest we run out of a medium to bring form and order to, in which case existence would be meaningless.

    Arctures: delta just produces boring people
    Arctures: but that's how we like it

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    vero: That's why I date an SLI

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Conclusion: Mikemex has an innability to understand complex ways to handle information.

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    Or his ways of understanding complex ways of handling information are so complex none of us idiot Merry types can begin to grasp it.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    durrrrrr

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Conclusion: Mikemex has an innability to understand complex ways to handle information.

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    Mikemex claimed her father has invented a perpetuum mobile.

    nuf said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Conclusion: Mikemex has an innability to understand complex ways to handle information.
    lol, did you just copy this from the OP?

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    The downside of a function by itself is that you are neglecting other functions... It doesn't make sense to me to have discussions where there is no clarity between a function and a person, regardless of what he/she values. People have the capability of developing or making use of different functions for whatever purpose. Isn't that what maturity is, basically? Realizing that the methods that come naturally to you might not be suitable for certain situations, and you adapt. Someone who is Ti or Fi leading is not some kind of drone for those functions.

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    I also don't like Mikemex's arrogance (in her other recent post too about IEE subtypes).

    And I think the gist of her OP here is off.

    My understanding is that it's Ne that tends towards increasing complexity of a concept or information.

    My understanding is also that Ti tends towards reducing complexity. So it's not that Ti can't handle complex information (especially in alpha NTs' case where Ne is at work as well making complex associations). Ti sees complex information as a weakness that needs to be corrected with simplification. In a Te-valuing person's eyes, this can be seen as OVER simplification and omission of important details.

    So when Ne is paired with Te-valuing such as in the case of delta NFs, you get a person that has this complex thought process that gives and receives information that could be perceived (especially by Ti-valuers) as a completely disorganized dump of unnecessarily information. Meanwhile the delta NF feels that all of those details do pertain to the issue at hand and are thus important.

    Mikemex may have drawn the conclusion that this is Fi at work, but that's coincidental I think. I dont see how Fi can be compared/contrasted to Ti. They deal with different realms.
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    the funniest thing about this thread is that some people took it seriously and were actually arguing about which one is superior. i mean, come on, really?

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