Tips for the LII in attracting an ESE

[Mariano Rajoy]

Tips for the LII on attracting the esfj

In our noble quest for the lovely ESE, it is most important to prepare ourselves before hand. Certain negative qualities that manifest in members of the type LII should be avoided, and certain positive qualities that the ESE enjoys should be accentuated. We shall begin with things that are held to be common sense, but without these considerations you will never achieve your goal. Furthermore, we shall assume that you are male, and no contact has been made prior to reading this article.

1.Iron your shirt. Always. You never know when you might happen to run into the elusive nymph during your daily activities.
2.Shave. Always. Again, you never know when you might run into someone worth while.
3.Be in a good mood. Don’t be a prick that will not hold a conversation. Be approachable. If you are going out, don’t be afraid to take stimulants such as red bull, or caffeine pills. If you are really serious, coke may be in order.

These things are fairly straight forward, and once you have consistently mastered them, you can move on.

4.Learn to communicate. Once you have the will, learn to actually hold a conversation. This means not being an arrogant ass and assuming that only what you like is interesting. An essential part of communicating is listening. Pay attention and don’t go on auto pilot. If you are as smart as you think you are, then you will be able to ask intelligent questions about anything and keep the conversation moving. Learning to communicate will not happen overnight, so do it frequently with anyone. Smile.
5. Stop being so damn introverted. Have a conversation with someone you don’t know. Learn to approach strangers. This is key. Don’t expect to just meet an ESE that you work with or through a friend. That is waiting for chance to give you what you want, which is stupid.
6. Manage your expectations. Don’t get anxious. Your only goal is to have a conversation and try to have a second conversation.

At this point, we can begin to look at identifying the ESE, and specific behaviours that will help attract the ESE.

7. The ESE can be hard to identify for an LII, so it may take practice in order to visually identify your target. The most noticeable aspect is the gait and body movements, so learn to pick them out. There is something very important to remember when trying to identify the ESE while having a conversation with said ESE. Very often the ESE has interests such as art, film, anthropology, etc. Once you have found such an interest, further inquiry is never rewarded with an elaborate answer. The answer will always be short, and will never divulge more information. For example: “What do you think of anthropology. (the course at university she is studying). Do you enjoy it”. And the answer is “it is interesting”. Any further answers will be similar. Another example: “what kind of film do you like? (a film student at university) Any genres or distinguishing characters?” and the answer: “I like short films”. Again no further elaboration will be given.
8. Realize that she will be suspicious of strangers trying to talk to her. She is going to be critical of you, and may reject you. Your conversation skills have to be decent here. Remember, ESE relies on gut feelings, and make decisions on gut feelings. Strangers cause nervousness, so your goal is to calm her through conversation.
9. if you make it past the initiation phase, you must know that your chances of being able to continue the conversation increase exponentially with the use of flattery. No, its not stupid to give someone a compliment. Just don’t give compliments about her body, she will think you are a perv. Flattery will get you everywhere, given that it is not superficial. Often simple flattery is enough, like “cool shoes” or whatever.
10. it is important to stick to your primary functions. Ti and Ne. use your logic, but don’t get dry and boring. Think of new topics and keep the ball rolling. Remember, ESE judge people using gut reactions. Keep it friendly and talk about what she wants to talk about, but do so using your primary function. Keep a confident logical background that she can say anything and not be criticised from. Smile.
11. the longer you can talk to her the better. Your physical presence is vitally important. (this is true during the relationship as well)
12. at some point, the conversation will have to end. Be sure to ask for the phone number. If you haven’t asked her about a boyfriend, and she hasn’t told you already, this is a great way to find out. With any luck she will give it to you.

[Raver]

Sounds pretty accurate to me because my mother is an ESFj. The ESFj and INTj duality is starting to make a lot of sense because I noticed that all the questions UDP poses as threads in this forum would be answered by an ESFj without even asking them. I believe ESFjs are not really concerned with your physical appearance, but of how you control your appearance. That would mean that they would find you attractive if you you make yourself look as attractive as you possibly can, not really how your natural looks are.

[Gilly]

Sounds pretty accurate to me because my mother is an ESFj. The ESFj and INTj duality is starting to make a lot of sense because I noticed that all the questions UDP poses as threads in this forum would be answered by an ESFj without even asking them. I believe ESFjs are not really concerned with your physical appearance, but of how you control your appearance. That would mean that they would find you attractive if you you make yourself look as attractive as you possibly can, not really how your natural looks are.

This goes to shit. UDP is a Beta NF.

[Raver]

Sounds pretty accurate to me because my mother is an ESFj. The ESFj and INTj duality is starting to make a lot of sense because I noticed that all the questions UDP poses as threads in this forum would be answered by an ESFj without even asking them. I believe ESFjs are not really concerned with your physical appearance, but of how you control your appearance. That would mean that they would find you attractive if you you make yourself look as attractive as you possibly can, not really how your natural looks are.

This goes to shit. UDP is a Beta NF.

Traveler is right about the ESFj I know....

However, I'm not necessarily "unattractive",

And Gilligan, you don't know me as well as you like to think you do.

Well, when I said "you" I was pointing out anybody in general who was reading it or any INTj. I believe the fact you are an INTj seems more clear now and duality is beginning to make sense as well. Duality seems to work on the mechanism of filling doubt with conclusions over a cloudy area that the dual partner sees with clarity.

[Creepy-]

1.Iron your shirt. Always. You never know when you might happen to run into the elusive nymph during your daily activities.
2.Shave. Always. Again, you never know when you might run into someone worth while.
3.Be in a good mood. Don’t be a prick that will not hold a conversation. Be approachable. If you are going out, don’t be afraid to take stimulants such as red bull, or caffeine pills. If you are really serious, coke may be in order ...
...
...

Well said about everything, in my opinion. I like the first three especially, because that is what I'd tell another INTj, especially if he has no idea what he's doing.

1-3 are things that need to be highlighted,though.


More on all of this later


PS: What I made of smaller font is what I don't agree with. THat's absolute shit advice to give. If you need drugs to "set things right", then you shouldn't be dealing with people, especially in terms of relationships. But hey, that's just how I roll.

[Creepy-]

Sounds pretty accurate to me because my mother is an ESFj. The ESFj and INTj duality is starting to make a lot of sense because I noticed that all the questions UDP poses as threads in this forum would be answered by an ESFj without even asking them. I believe ESFjs are not really concerned with your physical appearance, but of how you control your appearance. That would mean that they would find you attractive if you you make yourself look as attractive as you possibly can, not really how your natural looks are.

Just to clarify a bit more....... I haven't always acted as a true Alpha INTj here, on this site. I have always been one personally, but especially interacting online, I probably have come across more of an F type as Gman said.

You may not believe or understand this, but I've had a huge personal block or just restriction for the past few months. It is as if blood flow has been cut off to certain parts of my being, my self. A last few words about this subject, myself: For the longest time, I have waited in terms of 'commiting' to what sort of person to 'allow myself' to be. After a long, long time, and certain events, it is clear to me what sort of person I "want" to be, and as I go further, I just see that what I "want" is really what I "have been" all along, with a few twists. (This, of course, leads to questioning as to whether or not I was trying to or did "put the cart infront of the horse, but I won't get into all of that as it is not necessary now). until recently, I never noticed how much I test things.

[Creepy-]

Here is a comment I am tossing up to see what others think:

In terms of what an INTj should emulate (a role model, if you will), how about the famed "Mr. Darcy", the legendary man from "Pride & Prejudice". I did some research on the whole story a while ago, and it was interesting in a few ways. I remember hearing some trivial stuff about how a lot of girls would want to date "the Fitz" -- he was pretty high on a poll or survey a few years ago when it asked women what fictinoal character they'd like to have a date with. I don't remember the specifics of the poll (English?), but perhaps it applies here.

Darcy wasn't a romancer

He was smart, uber formal, a true gentleman, concerned about honor, and wore ironed shirt. Yeah... he did have Preamberly (spelling?), and loads of cash. And despite the arrogance and pride, he may at least be somewhat of a role modle for aspring INTjs.

I am not claiming to know Darcy's type, I just want to figure out what others think - is it ia good role modle? WHat do you suppose Darcy's type is, anyways? And, in terms of the traditionally minded ESFj, what Pride & Prejudice applications would be good ideas to follow? Or is it a bad comparrision from the start?

What do you think.

[Creepy-]

Also, in light of that other Data (star trek) thread, what about that one episode where a girl sort of "falls for" Data? If anyone has seen it, of course. I vaguley remember bits and peices of it, and I am a "novice" when it comes to star trek

But it occured to me that it may be a good example of how an attraction can be developed by someone who is logically based. Again, I'm just throwing this out there, as the topic made me think of that interaction.

[Expat]

Also, in light of that other Data (star trek) thread, what about that one episode where a girl sort of "falls for" Data? If anyone has seen it, of course. I vaguley remember bits and peices of it, and I am a "novice" when it comes to star trek
.

A few comments --

1) I'd really advise against using Star Trek plots as any guide or reference regarding romantic relationships, especially involving Data.

2) People can fall for others for many reasons, it doesn't mean that it can work out - in fact that is the overall point of that episode.

3) ESFjs do appreciate types because they help the ESFjs feel assured that they are making sense of their life on a daily basis.

[mike_INTJ]

1.Iron your shirt. Always. You never know when you might happen to run into the elusive nymph during your daily activities.
2.Shave. Always. Again, you never know when you might run into someone worth while.
3.Be in a good mood. Don’t be a prick that will not hold a conversation. Be approachable. If you are going out, don’t be afraid to take stimulants such as red bull, or caffeine pills. If you are really serious, coke may be in order.

but wouldn't they fall for the false image your shooting at?

and i assume Cola - Coke right? ideally i don't operate on Caffeine, it intensifies everything around me 10 fold. when i'm calm, my senses are 10 fold to begin with. it's like being shot in the head with hammers - not a good idea. and caffeine is addictive and not good for you in the long run. no one should depend on it.



These things are fairly straight forward, and once you have consistently mastered them, you can move on.

4.Learn to communicate. Once you have the will, learn to actually hold a conversation. This means not being an arrogant ass and assuming that only what you like is interesting. An essential part of communicating is listening. Pay attention and don’t go on auto pilot. If you are as smart as you think you are, then you will be able to ask intelligent questions about anything and keep the conversation moving. Learning to communicate will not happen overnight, so do it frequently with anyone. Smile.

communication only goes so far. you have to have something interesting to say to start with. and be used to talking to people in general. more so you need to be able to hear what he/she is saying. i know if the room is noisy, i can't hear anything but noise. if you don't smile often, it won't be natural. it will look fake, and my face cramps.

5. Stop being so damn introverted. Have a conversation with someone you don’t know. Learn to approach strangers. This is key. Don’t expect to just meet an ESE that you work with or through a friend. That is waiting for chance to give you what you want, which is stupid.

electroshock treatment perhaps. introversion isn't a choice or a lifestyle. it's brain based. as a kid you don't approach strangers as an adult, you have to. i learned not to. i don't trust people, why would or should i trust a stranger?

6. Manage your expectations. Don’t get anxious. Your only goal is to have a conversation and try to have a second conversation.

and talk about what? the weather? boring.



At this point, we can begin to look at identifying the ESE, and specific behaviours that will help attract the ESE.

9. if you make it past the initiation phase, you must know that your chances of being able to continue the conversation increase exponentially with the use of flattery. No, its not stupid to give someone a compliment. Just don’t give compliments about her body, she will think you are a perv. Flattery will get you everywhere, given that it is not superficial. Often simple flattery is enough, like “cool shoes” or whatever.

due to honesty rules, i can never give a compliment unless i really meant it. and i've found most people have very little taste in anything. and if i say cool shoes she'll expect it every time. i don't accept flattery either.



and where do we find these people? i don't hang out in bars or coffee places i hate both those drinks. i don't read books and can't talk in a library anyway. where would this place be?

[Creepy-]

ESE questions/comments

1. I remember hearing of a distinct walk - do they also have distince sitting styles - such as certain ways of sitting with their legs crossed or to one side, etc?
2. Poking/hitting, etc - how can you differntiate between what it means? Different ESFxs all have differnt patterns it seems - maybe it's just something based on the individual
3. One ESFj, a relative in my family, sometimes playfully swats at me, and then declares that I can't do anything back, because she's a girl. I just wonder how other ESFjs feel about things like that, or how much I should "play back" -- There was one ExFj girl in a class who, as the class went on, started swatting more and more as time went by. It was alright and stuff, but then she nearly knocked a paper out of my hand, and that reminded me of some things an ESFp was doing once, so it kind of offset things for me - in that I didn't know how to interpret it. I don't know the ExFj well enough to get much of an understanding for how she opperates like that.
4. Do female ESFxs like swatting at reserved people in general?
5. There is one abnormal ESFj that I know, and we get along pretty well. I make fun of her a lot because of her emotionality, even the turn of a simple phrase, etc. She uses that as an excuse to swat at me - is that an example of a typical sort of interaction between an INTj and ESFj, or is that just because she happens to be that kind of individual?
6. Bugs, mice, etc - female ESE's generally react like traditional women-- scared, etc- right?

[MySaviour]

ESE questions/comments

1. I remember hearing of a distinct walk - do they also have distince sitting styles - such as certain ways of sitting with their legs crossed or to one side, etc?
2. Poking/hitting, etc - how can you differntiate between what it means? Different ESFxs all have differnt patterns it seems - maybe it's just something based on the individual
3. One ESFj, a relative in my family, sometimes playfully swats at me, and then declares that I can't do anything back, because she's a girl. I just wonder how other ESFjs feel about things like that, or how much I should "play back" -- There was one ExFj girl in a class who, as the class went on, started swatting more and more as time went by. It was alright and stuff, but then she nearly knocked a paper out of my hand, and that reminded me of some things an ESFp was doing once, so it kind of offset things for me - in that I didn't know how to interpret it. I don't know the ExFj well enough to get much of an understanding for how she opperates like that.
4. Do female ESFxs like swatting at reserved people in general?
5. There is one abnormal ESFj that I know, and we get along pretty well. I make fun of her a lot because of her emotionality, even the turn of a simple phrase, etc. She uses that as an excuse to swat at me - is that an example of a typical sort of interaction between an INTj and ESFj, or is that just because she happens to be that kind of individual?
6. Bugs, mice, etc - female ESE's generally react like traditional women-- scared, etc- right?

The one big thing I'll pass along is the gossipy nature of most ESFj women. GOSSIPY. They also seem overly concerned with politeness. These two traits are not common only to ESFj's, obviously, but yea..

[Mariano Rajoy]

but wouldn't they fall for the false image your shooting at? and i assume Cola - Coke right? ideally i don't operate on Caffeine, it intensifies everything around me 10 fold. when i'm calm, my senses are 10 fold to begin with. it's like being shot in the head with hammers - not a good idea. and caffeine is addictive and not good for you in the long run. no one should depend on it.

asking the question about false image goes right to the heart of the issue. if you are uncomfortable, you are going to make others uncomfortable. so, be comfortable in the fact that it is ok to take care of yourself and make yourself physically attractive, and quit thinking about shit that makes you uncomfortable.

communication only goes so far. you have to have something interesting to say to start with. and be used to talking to people in general. more so you need to be able to hear what he/she is saying. i know if the room is noisy, i can't hear anything but noise. if you don't smile often, it won't be natural. it will look fake, and my face cramps.

bullshit. you do not need anything interesting to say. the only way to get used to talking to people is to do it. if you are not acting natural, then you are thinking too much. see #3. and yes, i do mean coke of the non-aluminum can variety. http://oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?p=8...ghlight=#85567

electroshock treatment perhaps. introversion isn't a choice or a lifestyle. it's brain based. as a kid you don't approach strangers as an adult, you have to. i learned not to. i don't trust people, why would or should i trust a stranger?

rubbish. why should you not trust a stranger? be introverted, fine. don't complain about the consequences of being introverted. you can choose to get out if you want. it is not pre-determined.

and talk about what? the weather? boring.

sex is not boring. talking about the weather leads to sex.

due to honesty rules, i can never give a compliment unless i really meant it. and i've found most people have very little taste in anything. and if i say cool shoes she'll expect it every time. i don't accept flattery either.

fine, be honest. be intelligent as well, and find something to compliment her on. and change your compliments. find something new. and just because you dont like compliments, doesnt mean others dont. i am telling you most people, including ESE's, love flattery.

and where do we find these people? i don't hang out in bars or coffee places i hate both those drinks. i don't read books and can't talk in a library anyway. where would this place be?

what do you mean "these people"? just go out and find anypeople.

essentially, be in a good mood. make it easy for people to like you.

[mike_INTJ]

but wouldn't they fall for the false image your shooting at? and i assume Cola - Coke right? ideally i don't operate on Caffeine, it intensifies everything around me 10 fold. when i'm calm, my senses are 10 fold to begin with. it's like being shot in the head with hammers - not a good idea. and caffeine is addictive and not good for you in the long run. no one should depend on it.

asking the question about false image goes right to the heart of the issue. if you are uncomfortable, you are going to make others uncomfortable. so, be comfortable in the fact that it is ok to take care of yourself and make yourself physically attractive, and quit thinking about shit that makes you uncomfortable.

communication only goes so far. you have to have something interesting to say to start with. and be used to talking to people in general. more so you need to be able to hear what he/she is saying. i know if the room is noisy, i can't hear anything but noise. if you don't smile often, it won't be natural. it will look fake, and my face cramps.

bullshit. you do not need anything interesting to say. the only way to get used to talking to people is to do it. if you are not acting natural, then you are thinking too much. see #3. and yes, i do mean coke of the non-aluminum can variety. http://oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?p=8...ghlight=#85567

electroshock treatment perhaps. introversion isn't a choice or a lifestyle. it's brain based. as a kid you don't approach strangers as an adult, you have to. i learned not to. i don't trust people, why would or should i trust a stranger?

rubbish. why should you not trust a stranger? be introverted, fine. don't complain about the consequences of being introverted. you can choose to get out if you want. it is not pre-determined.

and talk about what? the weather? boring.

sex is not boring. talking about the weather leads to sex.

due to honesty rules, i can never give a compliment unless i really meant it. and i've found most people have very little taste in anything. and if i say cool shoes she'll expect it every time. i don't accept flattery either.

fine, be honest. be intelligent as well, and find something to compliment her on. and change your compliments. find something new. and just because you dont like compliments, doesnt mean others dont. i am telling you most people, including ESE's, love flattery.

and where do we find these people? i don't hang out in bars or coffee places i hate both those drinks. i don't read books and can't talk in a library anyway. where would this place be?

what do you mean "these people"? just go out and find anypeople.

essentially, be in a good mood. make it easy for people to like you.

weather leads to sex? a yeah, ok. and why do i care about sex? is that really the goal?

i don't give out false praise. i don't care if they love flattery. i refuse to give it when it's not due. and as this alters my personality, i wouldn't be able to keep it up for very long. you have to be true to yourself, you can't keep it up forever. sooner or later, she'll figure you out. i would rather keep it honest in the beggining. very few things impress me, so flattery doesn't come so easy. when people hear it from me, they usually know they didn't something really well, i'm tuff to impress.

dressing nice and always keeping everything ironed are two different things. if you don't normally do it, then don't do it. you'll have to keep the persona forever - as she might have fallen for you just because of that one thing. it creates tension down the line if you fall out of the persona she fell for.

no you can't trust new people. i can't trust you at all. i never mentioned sex, and you went right to it. that's the end goal. say anything you have to get in her pants - right? why should she trust me then? most people have are single minded, you know what their thinking. i avoid those people.

take cocaine? are you mad? just another reason not to trust immediately. like i want to be with some drug crazed lunatic.

[tcaudilllg]

ESE questions/comments

1. I remember hearing of a distinct walk - do they also have distince sitting styles - such as certain ways of sitting with their legs crossed or to one side, etc?
2. Poking/hitting, etc - how can you differntiate between what it means? Different ESFxs all have differnt patterns it seems - maybe it's just something based on the individual
3. One ESFj, a relative in my family, sometimes playfully swats at me, and then declares that I can't do anything back, because she's a girl. I just wonder how other ESFjs feel about things like that, or how much I should "play back" -- There was one ExFj girl in a class who, as the class went on, started swatting more and more as time went by. It was alright and stuff, but then she nearly knocked a paper out of my hand, and that reminded me of some things an ESFp was doing once, so it kind of offset things for me - in that I didn't know how to interpret it. I don't know the ExFj well enough to get much of an understanding for how she opperates like that.
4. Do female ESFxs like swatting at reserved people in general?
5. There is one abnormal ESFj that I know, and we get along pretty well. I make fun of her a lot because of her emotionality, even the turn of a simple phrase, etc. She uses that as an excuse to swat at me - is that an example of a typical sort of interaction between an INTj and ESFj, or is that just because she happens to be that kind of individual?
6. Bugs, mice, etc - female ESE's generally react like traditional women-- scared, etc- right?

All ESEs chitter chatter chitter chatter incessantly. They have a million stories to tell you about what they did today, what they did yesterday, what they did last week, last month, last year. The longer you listen, the longer they'll talk.

My little sister chatters incessantly. About everything sensory extraverted. "I did this and I did this and then I did this. Then she did this and then he did this". It's cute for a while, but it gets on your nerves. Adult ESEs are the same way... chitter chatter, chitter chatter. FOREVER.

They have dimpled cheeks. Usually long hair. (females) They shift their weight a lot, and are apt to engage in any random activity. You don't have to look that hard for them. In particular, they'll probably go out of their way to help you. It's not difficult to find them.

[Expat]

=All ESEs chitter chatter chitter chatter incessantly. They have a million stories to tell you about what they did today, what they did yesterday, what they did last week, last month, last year. The longer you listen, the longer they'll talk.

My little sister chatters incessantly. About everything sensory extraverted. "I did this and I did this and then I did this. Then she did this and then he did this". It's cute for a while, but it gets on your nerves. Adult ESEs are the same way... chitter chatter, chitter chatter. FOREVER.
.

True enough, but for an INTj this should come naturally.

[Expat]

To listen to the ESFj's stories and help them make sense out of them. That's what they expect.

[tcaudilllg]

To listen to the ESFj's stories and help them make sense out of them. That's what they expect.

It depends on the content. Irrelevant kiddie content like my sis' bores me. I might get along better with an ESFJ who was interested in, say, psychology, and who actually considered in her mind whether what she was saying was relevant or not to what I wanted to hear before she said it.

[Mariano Rajoy]

LII's get so wrapped up in themselves. too bad they often don't realize that they are wrong about many things. the first thing is such a naive understanding of people and relationships. (3rd function pretends to be bigger than it is) i just want to bring to attention certain things that express a shallow understanding of realtionships, the first being the idea that someone will fall in love with you because of one thing, and the second is being uncomfortable with having sex with someone without being in love. having sex and being sexual with someone other than yourself is not an injustice.

and in the content versus delivery debate, i cannot convince any one of the validity of delivery. its value must be ascertained for yourself. seeing the value of drunkennnes, sex, chating, listening, etc means that the LII personality will have to develop. and heaven forbid, actually doing those things. i guarantee that opinions will change and be more robust and subtle due to experiences.