View Poll Results: What was the sociotype of Carl Jung?

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  • ILE (ENTp)

    3 4.00%
  • SEI (ISFp)

    0 0%
  • ESE (ESFj)

    0 0%
  • LII (INTj)

    20 26.67%
  • SLE (ESTp)

    1 1.33%
  • IEI (INFp)

    18 24.00%
  • EIE (ENFj)

    0 0%
  • LSI (ISTj)

    6 8.00%
  • SEE (ESFp)

    0 0%
  • ILI (INTp)

    22 29.33%
  • LIE (ENTj)

    0 0%
  • ESI (ISFj)

    0 0%
  • IEE (ENFp)

    1 1.33%
  • SLI (ISTp)

    1 1.33%
  • LSE (ESTj)

    0 0%
  • EII (INFj)

    3 4.00%
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Thread: Carl Jung's type

  1. #1

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    I have never posted a video link prior to my present post so I'm uncertain the link will not break. Putting aside all doubts, here is an interview of the man himself. Honestly I'm suspending judgement. When he talks about feeling 'love at first sight' I have to question that can indicate INTP hidden agenda to love but by your own standard I do not think that is clear evidence.



    the next video is his view on death of the body but he posits the psyche remains unrecognizable prior to death. His view of death is reminisent of Socrates discussion of life, death, pleasure and pain in the Crito. A common pre-sentiment toward death is fear but Carl Jung suggests to embrace death without fear. Socrates held such a view but for different reasons. Socrates argued the immortality of the soul based upon protagathorian logic. I'm undecided on how to best interpret that. Socrates is regarded as a INTP on ricksocionics.com but Plato is an INTP according to typelogic which utilizes the myers-briggs model so after converting that to socionics model his type is INTJ.

    As a lasting point his facial expressions seem sparce, and he has the arch eyebrows and boneless cheeks best befitting the physical descrption of INTJ. However he has a protruding nose which is a facial feature of INTP.




    Last edited by silke; 03-27-2018 at 06:17 PM.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Can we please get back to this?

    I would like to see if anyone can pose a good argument of why Carl Jung would be ESTp.
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    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  3. #3
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    Ni + Ti
    Ni > Ne
    Ti > Te

    IEI
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Pookie that's a nice suggestion but why?
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  5. #5
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    He built a system internally that was based on a collective of inferences, and tried to balance out the system by doing his best to have none of the components in the system overlap in any but intended ways. All of this while working with a minute amount of facts, and not really producing any real facts himself. All that makes me strongly believe Ti>Te. And i can attempt to explain the Ni, maybe at a later point, i just know that i work in a similar manner internally.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    He built a system internally that was based on a collective of inferences, and tried to balance out the system by doing his best to have none of the components in the system overlap in any but intended ways. All of this while working with a minute amount of facts, and not really producing any real facts himself. All that makes me strongly believe Ti>Te. And i can attempt to explain the Ni, maybe at a later point, i just know that i work in a similar manner internally.
    I agree with Se/Ni valuing, as you've stated above, but I disagree with him being an introvert. What argument can you make for that?
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I agree with Se/Ni valuing, as you've stated above, but I disagree with him being an introvert. What argument can you make for that?
    To be able to create this kind of thing,singlehandedly, and not get exhausted by the task doesnt seem likely for someone with an introverted creative function. To me it speaks of someone who gets charged/energized by introspection, which is typical of an introverted base function.

    And also, Dynamics. The whole creation was a means of describing intertype dynamics and the dynamics within the human psyche. I don't honestly think a static type could come up with this without it coming across in a much more reductive and seperated manner. I could be wrong about the I, but i know i'm not wrong about the dynamic portion, so if Jung was indeed an E, i think you'd have to argue that he was an EJ
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    .
    Last edited by mfckr; 12-29-2014 at 12:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    To be able to create this kind of thing,singlehandedly, and not get exhausted by the task doesnt seem likely for someone with an introverted creative function. To me it speaks of someone who gets charged/energized by introspection, which is typical of an introverted base function.

    And also, Dynamics. The whole creation was a means of describing intertype dynamics and the dynamics within the human psyche. I don't honestly think a static type could come up with this without it coming across in a much more reductive and seperated manner. I could be wrong about the I, but i know i'm not wrong about the dynamic portion, so if Jung was indeed an E, i think you'd have to argue that he was an EJ
    He wasn't gathering his material from inside of himself.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    I type Carl Jung ESTp.

    I type Sigmund Freud ISTp.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  11. #11
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    LII obviously; although I've argued LSI before, I don't believe he is. He's way too big of a wacko to be LSI lol......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I type Carl Jung ESTp.

    I type Sigmund Freud ISTp.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I am almost sure that Carl Jung is ILI or IEI (has leading Ni). The way he writes is very very pleasant and comfortable for me to read (Ashton correctly pointed out the features in Jung's writing that are probably Ni related)

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    Oh, he did it correctly, did he? Thanks for being the standard of Socionics wisdom.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    You are so lucky to have me on this forum, Gilly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    He wasn't gathering his material from inside of himself.
    Exactly, he cut open other people and got their material instead. As for his type, a long time ago I have had a brief encounter with Jung. I think I was 21 or 22 yrs old back then, but that's not the point. I found him to be quite aristocratic socionics-wise and I don't think delta which leaves beta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Exactly, he cut open other people and got their material instead. As for his type, a long time ago I have had a brief encounter with Jung. I think I was 21 or 22 yrs old back then, but that's not the point. I found him to be quite aristocratic socionics-wise and I don't think delta which leaves beta.
    Lmao
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Lmao
    Ahh, another satisfied customer. When I was little I had this squirrel that could speak like an owl. When you visit Ukraine there be very clever socionics people that can share more.

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    INTP

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    He wasn't gathering his material from inside of himself.
    His theories were muchly an insight and speculations, not empirical.

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    I type him IEI or LII, he has strong Ni and is Ti valuing. He is an introvert.

    There are good arguments for IEI or LII.

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    INTj harmonizing

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I type him IEI or LII, he has strong Ni and is Ti valuing. He is an introvert.

    There are good arguments for IEI or LII.
    wuss
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  23. #23

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    As much as I typically disregard "authority" as beeing a reason to trust one's opinion... what is the actual liklihood that these "socionists" (I'm assuming they're somehow professionals in this "field") are ALL wrong?

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    Excuse my overuse of snobby internet air quotes, and misspellings which I couldn't correct because fuck my computer.

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    Last edited by mfckr; 12-29-2014 at 12:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    Professional socionists have as much authority as professional palm readers and astrologers.
    lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Higher than you might think. Many "experts" are prone to incestuously conforming their opinions to one another, esp. when a more preeminent authority among them makes a decree.
    Gross.

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    LII or ILI, less likely IEI

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    Jung is the functions.

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    Based on his perception, yes, he'd be LII and Emma was dominant, maybe SEI.


    Reading his works though, he seems heavily obscured by imaginary...I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't actually correctly type himself according to his own typology - which was somewhat limited in how it was defined at any rate. I just feel I won't ever be able to have a strong opinion on his type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Based on his perception, yes, he'd be LII and Emma was dominant, maybe SEI.


    Reading his works though, he seems heavily obscured by imaginary...I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't actually correctly type himself according to his own typology - which was somewhat limited in how it was defined at any rate. I just feel I won't ever be able to have a strong opinion on his type.
    and which type was Sabina Spielrein?
    I don't totally discard the possibility of Jung being Ni dominant, because a lot of his theory is indeed in that direction - the tension of opposites in the psyche from which energy derives, the whole concept of the Shadow, synchronicity, his belief in the significance of dreams (he is said to even have shown some faith in what Tarot can do to unlock hidden content in the psyche). However Analytical Psychology is rather a Ti system. He's a complicated guess. Most LIIs have less interest in human psychology than in developing more abstract 'hard science' systems. ILIs are usually more pragmatic than that - dreams can only be indicative of some fears/wishes in the personal subconscious, but not related to a "meta" reality. Jung did have such a bent, one towards occultism and mysticism, which was one of the reasons why this relationship with Freud was severed. So of course there's still the possibility that he was a IEI with a very strong scientific background.
    Last edited by Amber; 03-22-2015 at 11:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    He mentioned that he was primarily a Thinking type with "archaic" (meaning less developed) Intuition in both works and interviews. I think this interview might have it, but I don't recall.
    archaic in jung's interpretation meant "existing at deeper levels of psyche" or in other words "original" which doesn't translate to it being "less developed" but shows that he viewed his intuition as constitutional. i looked it up on ref. lexicon of jungian terms and what struck me as odd is that his own interpretation of this word had blatant parallels with his own description of introverted intuition:


    "Archaism attaches primarily to the fantasies of the unconscious, i.e., to the products of unconscious fantasy activity which reach consciousness. An image has an archaic quality when it possesses unmistakable mythological parallels. Archaic, too, are the associations-by-analogy of unconscious fantasy, and so is their symbolism."


    calling his intuition as "archaic" jung means an intuition that functions by "associations-by-analogy of unconscious fantasy" and "possesses unmistakable mythological parallels". isn't this how Ni is conceptualized in socionics? this is all too far-fetched and contradictory as an account of Ne.
    Last edited by Nevero; 05-21-2014 at 08:20 PM.

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    I always thought he was an LSI. I believe that's what he typed himself as, at least. He obviously was a introverted thinking type, based on his introverted thinking definition. It was very well written out, unlike the other types, and had many examples of both positive and neurotic manifestations of thinking and feeling in this type. Also, his creation of an abstract structure to later apply to reality screams Ti as a leading. As for the sensation as a creative, I'm not as certain, but he is most definitely either LSI or LII.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevero View Post
    archaic in jung's interpretation meant "existing at deeper levels of psyche" or in other words "original" which doesn't translate to it being "less developed" but shows that he viewed his intuition as constitutional. i looked it up on ref. lexicon of jungian terms and what struck me as odd is that his own interpretation of this word had blatant parallels with his own description of introverted intuition:


    "Archaism attaches primarily to the fantasies of the unconscious, i.e., to the products of unconscious fantasy activity which reach consciousness. An image has an archaic quality when it possesses unmistakable mythological parallels. Archaic, too, are the associations-by-analogy of unconscious fantasy, and so is their symbolism."


    calling his intuition as "archaic" jung means an intuition that functions by "associations-by-analogy of unconscious fantasy" and "possesses unmistakable mythological parallels". isn't this how Ni is conceptualized in socionics? this is all too far-fetched and contradictory as an account of Ne.
    Well alright, maybe "less developed" is the wrong choice of words, but archaic functions are still more associated with the unconscious than waking reality. A big component of Freudian psychology is the idea that inappropriate actions or beliefs are repressed and driven into the unconscious. Jung took that a step further by suggesting that conscious extraverted functions "repress" introverted ones and vice versa.

    Model A attempts to emulate this with its distinction between conscious / unconscious blocks (superid = Animus/Anima Archetype; id = Shadow Archetype(?); both unconscious), but without the robustness of the former.

    Btw, I have no problem calling Jung something other than INTj in Socionics -- Socionics element descriptions are built around more palpable qualities that don't necessarily resonate with the more etheric functions described by him. Socionics is a mechanistic system (or attempts to be) on every level.

    Fun fact: both agree about Kant's type ( Ti-base ). The guy is as predictable as a clock or something...

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquility View Post
    I always thought he was an LSI. I believe that's what he typed himself as, at least. He obviously was a introverted thinking type, based on his introverted thinking definition. It was very well written out, unlike the other types, and had many examples of both positive and neurotic manifestations of thinking and feeling in this type. Also, his creation of an abstract structure to later apply to reality screams Ti as a leading. As for the sensation as a creative, I'm not as certain, but he is most definitely either LSI or LII.
    sounds like professor yukawa, limit and simulatedworld's spirits screaming in unison "WE ARE AUTHORITY PAY ATTENTION TO USSSS"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    sounds like professor yukawa, limit and simulatedworld's spirits screaming in unison "WE ARE AUTHORITY PAY ATTENTION TO USSSS"
    I don't quite understand your post. Could you please explain?
    DISCLAIMER

    If I use the wrong words for the same concepts, please excuse me. I understand this is a Socionics forum, but arguing over something as simple as semantics over similar concepts is not desirable. I'll try to keep to Socionics terminology, but I may forget to, and don't wish for any unnecessary confrontation. If you don't understand my point of view due to a misuse of proper vocabulary, I will be happy to expound upon the source of the misconception, and will attempt to use the proper word the next time. Also, if you happen to disagree with my opinion (which all of my posts are, regardless of how I present them), please don't attack me ad hominem. I am perfectly happy to consider alternatives, and am also fine with a friendly debate, but do not wish to be insulted just because my opinion differs from yours, nor insulted over my purposes for holding this opinion.
    Thank you!

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    I don't see him typing himself as an "introverted thinker with strong/archaic intuition" in an age dominated by behaviorism and materialism as any more outlandish than him calling himself an empiricist (which, despite efforts, he really wasn't, he just practiced medicine), in light of the likelihood of an Ni-IEI with an overactive hidden agenda melding themselves to social/cultural boundaries... i.e. why he didn't release the red book initially. the disparity between his typing in his system and socionics can be better understood if one sees a certain strength (if compensatory) in the agenda function, and a consequent over-appraisal of its weight/value to the individual. additionally, there isn't a hint of in any of his writings, as contrasted with Freud, who takes a more top-down, reductionistic view, especially when assessing motives... he's very divergent and interpolative, Jung more often subsumes information under broader conceptual headings and has a stronger inductive streak.


    edit: an example of what I'm talking about with Freud is his essay investigating the mechanisms behind the forgetting of words/phrases/etc. in interactions; synchronicity would be an example of Jung's style.
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    IEI-Ni sx/sp 9w1

    I've checked different excerpts from Jung's writing for Process/Result dichotomy and he repeatedly came out as a Result type, which is supportive of LII and IEI typings and detracts from ILI, EIE, LSI - all of these are Process types. Much like Gulenko and School or Dynamic Socionics have described of Result types, Jung first casts out some general idea and only after does he come in and back it up with specifics, anecdotes, references, which is a trait of Involutionary/Result types.

    Further choosing between LII and IEI, I've noticed that dynamic associative flow > static analysis for Jung. Anyone saying he's a static rational and a Ti-dom should try reading him without getting lost in all the disparate associations and anecdotes he draws together and piles up in every chapter in order to make his point. Ni subtype of IEI has an emphasized Ti hidden agenda. This makes some Ni-IEIs to believe themselves to be thinking types such as ILIs and LIIs, since there is a tendency to over-identify with one's hidden agenda that is like a thorn within the conscious view, while 1st "background" function is, well, in the background. If Jung's type was IEI-Ni, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for him to claim himself a thinking type.

    Besides that, in the interview that is commonly used to support his LII typing, Jung is using the word "thinking" in its colloquial sense i.e. "thinking" as a process of having thoughts ("I've always thought ...") rather than in the sense of socionics Ti as "structural logic". This isn't particularly telling of a type, since anyone is capable of thinking.

    Interviewer: Have you concluded what psychological type you are yourself?
    C. Jung: Well, you see, the type is nothing static. It changes in the course of life, but I most certainly was characterized by thinking. I've always thought, from early childhood on, and I had a great deal of intuition too. And I had a definite difficulty with feeling, and my relation to reality was not particularly brilliant. I was often at variance with the reality of things."

    Transcript from BBC's "Face to Face" interview with Carl Jung: http://www.jgsparks.net/folio/Mdr/FacetoFace.pdf


    And this piece of Jung's advice is not very exemplary of Te. Rather, he seems to shun it in favor of some ethical function:

    Anyone who wants to know the human psyche will learn next to nothing from experimental psychology. He would be better advised to abandon exact science, put away his scholar's gown, bid farewell to his study, and wander with human heart throught the world. There in the horrors of prisons, lunatic asylums and hospitals, in drab suburban pubs, in brothels and gambling-hells, in the salons of the elegant, the Stock Exchanges, socialist meetings, churches, revivalist gatherings and ecstatic sects, through love and hate, through the experience of passion in every form in his own body, he would reap richer stores of knowledge than text-books a foot thick could give him, and he will know how to doctor the sick with a real knowledge of the human soul. ― Carl Jung
    Last edited by silke; 07-13-2017 at 11:33 PM. Reason: fixed link

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