A Little Bit of Alchemy Never Hurt Anyone

[VivPhilos]

Actually we might be talking different in here. One thing is emotsion like fear or love, but another is feeling in Jungs sence what Socionists named to Ethichs as it made people to confuse. As I understand the Ethical functions are more of the subjective evaluations like I like this person , but do not like that one and this in sence of psychology seems to be more like an attitude, at least I think so. Emotsions are what everione are living through equally, Ethical and Logical types both can feel the fear or love powerfully. And that thinking thing might also be something ellse having similar name to Socionics. Jungs Thinking was named into Logic in Socionics and it seems to me to be something different from that thinking,what you were talking about.

This seems like to make the best sense to me so far, although it hasn't solved my "problem" of "sequence" directly...

Yes, Emotions maybe different from Feeling, as Pedro also mentioned once vaguely, and Jung's "Feeling" or even "Thinking" for types may have a different definition from the modern psychologies.

But what's the meaning behind these possible differences anyway? Doesn't Feelings/Thinking/Sensing/Intuition all produce some sort of emotions anyway? If yes, why would the modern psychologiests "choose" to change "thinking" (first) instead of anything else for an effective therapeutic method (e.g. Congnitive Therapy), i.e. not sensing, and feeling, especially when F is a Judging function too?

[VivPhilos]

+(relative to the ego, relative to the id it is -) functions are all accepting functions. One is "strong", one is "weak". Due to this, it inhibits the weaker + function, making consciousness possible.

Okay, I understand what you are saying, but this doesn't prove that there isn't a sequential reaction between each function before the final form expression (e.g. E/I) comes to light...

If all the forces were equal there would be zero, nothing, just a "gooey mess" of functions. So yes, all the functions do exist at once, we are animals, we are open systems. We all have brains and all the same parts in our brains(hopefully) we have a sensory cortex, a motore cortex, a visual cortex etc... We have all the same "pieces", but somehow these pieces process information differently. Some pieces are weak, some are strong.

So yes, it does happen all at once, its just that there are strengths and weaknesses.

Some rationalize first, as acceptance(take measurable details), then attempt to perceive, as production(apply patterns to experience?). Others perceive first(take in stimulation), then attempt to rationalize(give details based on experience). Of course, when we are in our creative act we can not "switch off" our (+), it is always there and perhaps always interrupts the signal of the (-) functions.

Okay, but what you say is, still, a different matter from what I have raised, I think. Yes, I understand that all (potential) functions my potentially exist at the same time, say, within our body or mind, but I suspect for all this functions to work in "actions", and altimately to produce some expressions (e.g. through E/I), it might take some sort of "secretive proceedures" (e.g. these "chain reactions may happen within 0.000001 Second of tim, therefore misleading us to think they all work simultaneously) which the modern people/psychologiest (or even Jung) is not yet aware of ...


Am I confusing you?

If yes, sorry, I sometimes don't know how to put things in words (especially in English). I will think about how to put my thoughts in "better" and clearer words and will probably explain my thoughts again if necessary.

**Anyway, thanks for ALL your comments on my crazy thoughts and theory. We might be talking about something nobody knows or something we humans will never find out...

So, whatever I said, until now is just some silly thoughts, and may not be some practical tool to help us with the type analysis, hehehe...

Cheers!

[VivPhilos]

Your brain itself has to interpret the sensory information first, in order to feel or think or do anything.

It's been proven that logic AND emotion are ALWAYS used in EVERY brain process for EVERYONE. The "conciousness" of these processes is the ONLY thing that differs.

Yes, Transigeint,

I agree with you, although with my limited understanding of Emotion and Logic at this point.

[VivPhilos]

Thinking before feeling? Must have been a T type psychologist that came up with that conclusion :-). Maybe by thinking he meant any form of processing, which also involves feeling. The word thinking is often used in impropper context as well. Some people may say.... I need to visualize the possibilities so let me think. Obviously they are not thinking, but intuiting. So by thinking before feeling, it is obvious that the brain needs to process something (not necesarily logic) in order to resolve a feeling tone. You cant get answers without ballancing the data.

But as I said and posted earlier in this forum, it is scientifically proven that people don't Feel before Thinking, and it (e.g. Congnitive Therapy) is not a major scientific/psychological theory nowadays.

You can also intuite and sense, without sensory organs! Lets pretend that you had all your sensory organs up until you were 20, then tragically you lost them. You will still have access to stored information which you can use to dirive new information.

I understand what you are saying. But when you say "you will still have access to stored information which you can use to derive new information", that is SENSING too! Agree?

Intuition also allows you to examine your own perceptions, which will allow you to constantly generate new information or possibilities. Sensing also continues, because you can still imagine spatial structures, you can visualize 3D maps of objects, you can still recall and even generate in your field of vision (even without eyes) images.

Yes, but what you say here doesn't contradict with my saying of the "sequence"thing... I am really talking about some possible "invisible" or unconscious kind of "chain" reactions between all (8 or 4) functions - and these "reactions" may happen all in one second or even 0.00001 second of time, so just because we don't "see" this "sequence", doens't mean it doesn't exist.

Hope I have explained it clear enough so you guys know what I am trying to say.

Sorry if there are tons of confusions that I might have produced...

[Creepy-]

[quote="VivPhilos"]Oooops, that (Guest) was me, forgot to loggin again ....

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Also, did you ever notice that "thinking" will only come into play when your energy levels are low, or you are depressed? When your conciousness is stimulated to higher levels, you do not want to "think" at all. I think that what it comes down to is a Concentration/Energy balance of the psyche, where if Concentration>Energy, you are xxTx, and if Energy>Concentration, you are xxFx, and Concentration+Energy is your "intellegence/insight/life/charisma/etc."

I think the low energy of thinking did not necessarily come from thinking itself - as you said, it comes from "depression", and depression is a negative form of "feeling" other than thinking, and "feeling" maybe, as I have suggested, the result of "thinking. So, you have somehow "proved" my proposed version/point that THINKING comes before FEELING!

For these types, they "expand" thier conciousness into space rather than time. This is why they live in the "here and now" beause they tend to stay in one space, expanded into 3-dimensions, while intuitive types use thier mind to expand into the 4th dimension.

Ah, I like the last sentence of conclusion - it says INTUITION maybe the 4th dimension after the 3-d. So, as I said, Intuition may exist only AFTER S, T, F, not before. But it is possible that without Intuition (i.e. time) nothing may exist or all things/matter would be static - that is, if time is what is classified in the "physical" form as you've discussed earlier, but I am not sure about this classification.

Now, don't you guys see my possible theory of "sequence/order" of the functions? You've constantly used this principle during your analysis. :wink:

The white functions are his contact with the mind and body, and the black functions are his contact with the environment and others. They are ALL active and continuously zipping back and forth. However, your soul, being the fickle emporer as he is, favors some messengers over others, and this is where the "type theory" comes in. He gives the messengers that he favors more money in which to throw into the "life pool", and these messengers therfore have more control over you, and are more integral to your being.

As a matter of fact, and as I have just said above, I have got some different/opposite conclusions from yours. Sequential reactions may have taken place in an invisible way which we human eyes/senses cannot really notice.

Sorry, Transigient, I may have argued too hard, but this is FUN, isn't it? hehehe...

[Creepy-]

Oooops, that (Guest) was me, forgot to loggin again ....

==================

Also, did you ever notice that "thinking" will only come into play when your energy levels are low, or you are depressed? When your conciousness is stimulated to higher levels, you do not want to "think" at all. I think that what it comes down to is a Concentration/Energy balance of the psyche, where if Concentration>Energy, you are xxTx, and if Energy>Concentration, you are xxFx, and Concentration+Energy is your "intellegence/insight/life/charisma/etc."

I think the low energy of thinking did not necessarily come from thinking itself - as you said, it comes from "depression", and depression if a negative form of "feeling" other than thinking, and "feeling" maybe, as I have suggested, the result of "thinking. So, you have somehow "proved" my own proposed version/point that THINKING comes before FEELING!

For these types, they "expand" thier conciousness into space rather than time. This is why they live in the "here and now" beause they tend to stay in one space, expanded into 3-dimensions, while intuitive types use thier mind to expand into the 4th dimension.

Ah, I like the last sentence of conclusion - it says INTUITION maybe the 4th dimension after the 3-d. So, as I said, Intuition may exist only AFTER S, T, F, not before.

Now, don't you guys see my possible theory of "sequence/order" of the functions? You've constantly used this principle during your analysis. :wink:

The white functions are his contact with the mind and body, and the black functions are his contact with the environment and others. They are ALL active and continuously zipping back and forth. However, your soul, being the fickle emporer as he is, favors some messengers over others, and this is where the "type theory" comes in. He gives the messengers that he favors more money in which to throw into the "life pool", and these messengers therfore have more control over you, and are more integral to your being.

As a matter of fact, and as I have just said above, I have got some different/opposite conclusions from yours.

Sorry, Transigient, I may have argued too hard, but this is FUN, isn't it? hehehe...

[discourse]

Actually Jung him self spoke that fist the sensing takes the information, then thinking says what it is, after that feeling says to us what it means and then intuition tells what it becomes.

[VivPhilos]

Actually Jung him self spoke that fist the sensing takes the information, then thinking says what it is, after that feeling says to us what it means and then intuition tells what it becomes.

Thanks for clarifying this, somebody else told me the similar thing today.

So now it makes more sense with Jung's "functional" theory.

In fact as far as I understand Jung didn't develop specific "type" theories himself. The first well known and specific type theory of the 16 types was probably developed by Myers-Briggs, which (they claim) was based on Jung's 4-functional theory.

[Slava]

Everyone processes the same information, but we focus on a specific set of it only. So "processing" comes before any form of feeling or thinking. Then you can chose to filter the data using F or T, where neither has to come first. In fact I'm pretty sure many T types have had a powerful feeling and spent days thinking about it. The order is just an appearant order, reletive to your own type. 4th dimension also doesn't have to come after the 3rd in order. Any single dimension can be isolated from the others. Most of the functions are just about what processies in your own brain you are focused on, or how wide or narrow the focus is, and weather it points out or in. and with all these combinations available to us, we can deal with most aspects of reality.

[VivPhilos]

Slava,

Thanks for reply!

Everyone processes the same information, but we focus on a specific set of it only. So "processing" comes before any form of feeling or thinking. Then you can chose to filter the data using F or T
where neither has to come first. In fact I'm pretty sure many T types have had a powerful feeling and spent days thinking about it.

Sure, when feelings have become thoughts (meanings interpreted/generated by feelings) after thinking, you may "rethink" these "thoughts" again and re-generate more feelings and then "translate" these (further) feelings into further meanings.... the cycle goes on...

The order is just an appearant order, reletive to your own type. 4th dimension also doesn't have to come after the 3rd in order.

What I really mean is that N may come from EACH S or F or T directly/simultaneously (and therefore may not come only after the third in order as you said), but at least from S (if not from F or T), without Sensing, I cannot imagine how Intuition could take place.

Any single dimension can be isolated from the others. Most of the functions are just about what processies in your own brain you are focused on, or how wide or narrow the focus is, and weather it points out or in. and with all these combinations available to us, we can deal with most aspects of reality.

Sure, undestood, but type functions may not "react" to situations or may not "process" external information simultaneously, but in a certain order, for example: from S to T, then to F. But this possible "order" may be soooo subtle (or so fast, e.g. happens in a 0.00001 second) that we humans cannot consciously or possibly sense or see it.

However, I don't deny that these potential functions (at the same time) may definitely have stronger or weaker dominance as our natural tendencies, such as socionics' descriptions e.g. "strong accepting/weak producing".

[Creepy-]

Very true but it seems like those not getting their support functions are more so and the more introverted you are the less ccontact you have with those things. I feel really sorry for IxTPs to have a hidden agenda that requires people and can never be satisfied alone. At least you can create Si on your own same for T it seems but Fi Se.... I think this hurts them a lot.

I agree with this

[Waddlesworth]

me above

[Creepy-]

http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/et/buklet.html#top

I just now noticed that there is alot of disagreement and speculations about what the definitions of the functions mean. I'm not going to say that this is going to clear up any confusion but it might actually help a little bit in understanding what the functions are fundamentally. The above link is from the International Socionics Institute page and describles the "Qualia" of the symbols used for each of the 8 functions.

I don't think its as philosophical as it looks at first.

I shall summarize:

Perception= Time and Space
Judgement= Matter and Energy

Time+Matter= NT
Time+Energy= NF
Space+Matter=ST
Space+Energy=SF


*snip*

So one can deduce that introversion corresponds with associations, extraversion corresponds with practicality, what is real and tangible.

...... hmm......

I can see what you mean. A tendency to see only what is there, sort of...