Commodus, Emperor of Rome

[Expat]

I've been trying to type this guy; I have some ideas but perhaps someone has a better insight.

Here are the bare facts:

- hereditary monarch, so he did not have to do anything to climb to power
- wielded near absolute power, so his actions can be seen as result of his functional preferences
- spent as little time as possible actually governing, leaving that to appointed subordinates
- spent as much time as possible in sports, taking long baths, and sex
- usually did not care about what was going on, except when he felt threatened - then he would spring to ruthless action (which usually meant executing the guys who happened to be doing the actual governing)
- enjoyed sycophancy and extravagant honours - people had to kiss his ass constantly
- a superb athlete and skilled in many sports - that was really his interest, even obsession
- had no qualms about putting his sister to death because of conspiracy

I know that he sounds like an asshole, but he also had a type.

Does the above suggest any obvious types?

[Dioklecian]

I've been trying to type this guy; I have some ideas but perhaps someone has a better insight.

Here are the bare facts:

- hereditary monarch, so he did not have to do anything to climb to power
- wielded near absolute power, so his actions can be seen as result of his functional preferences
- spent as little time as possible actually governing, leaving that to appointed subordinates
- spent as much time as possible in sports, taking long baths, and sex
- usually did not care about what was going on, except when he felt threatened - then he would spring to ruthless action (which usually meant executing the guys who happened to be doing the actual governing)
- enjoyed sycophancy and extravagant honours - people had to kiss his ass constantly
- a superb athlete and skilled in many sports - that was really his interest, even obsession
- had no qualms about putting his sister to death because of conspiracy

I know that he sounds like an asshole, but he also had a type.

Does the above suggest any obvious types?

My guess woul be ESTP because of the sports, etc, and the ruthlessness, as well as the delegation of responsibility.

[Kristiina]

Si type. Probably SiTe (ISTp).
good at sports and liked doing sports, comfortable long baths, etc.
because Fe would have been a little less ruthless. But I'm not so sure about that.
Not particularly Se, because Se would have liked to rule. He just wanted to enjoy himself.

ISTps I know aren't very forgiving people. He doesn't seem forgiving either, slaughtering people, including a sister.
Enjoyed people kissing his ass... Well... ISTps are very sure of being almighty. When they have a chance, I think they would enjoy it if others accepted their position (e.g being the alpha and omega of the world)

[Rocky]

[Dioklecian]

So, who is this person Expat?

[Expat]

Thank you for your views.

If even Rocky can see him as ISTp, the matter is settled for me. Kristiina, that is what I thought too.

I had thought of ESTp and ISFp as possible alternatives but ISTp seemed most likely. I did not want people to think that I think that he is a typical ISTp.

The person is Commodus, Emperor of Rome 180-192. The historical Commodus was a very different person from the way he was portrayed in Gladiator; but I guess that if he was shown as he really was, modern audiences would simply not believe it.

[Dioklecian]

Thank you for your views.

If even Rocky can see him as ISTp, the matter is settled for me. Kristiina, that is what I thought too.

I had thought of ESTp and ISFp as possible alternatives but ISTp seemed most likely. I did not want people to think that I think that he is a typical ISTp.

The person is Commodus, Emperor of Rome 180-192. The historical Commodus was a very different person from the way he was portrayed in Gladiator; but I guess that if he was shown as he really was, modern audiences would simply not believe it.

I would still say ESTP for Commodus, in particular if you contrast his exceesses with known ISTP emperors. I think that ethics are very important as a hidden agenda, whereas Commodus was completely lacking from what I understand.

[FDG]

Thank you for your views.

If even Rocky can see him as ISTp, the matter is settled for me. Kristiina, that is what I thought too.

I had thought of ESTp and ISFp as possible alternatives but ISTp seemed most likely. I did not want people to think that I think that he is a typical ISTp.

The person is Commodus, Emperor of Rome 180-192. The historical Commodus was a very different person from the way he was portrayed in Gladiator; but I guess that if he was shown as he really was, modern audiences would simply not believe it.

I would still say ESTP for Commodus, in particular if you contrast his exceesses with known ISTP emperors. I think that ethics are very important as a hidden agenda, whereas Commodus was completely lacking from what I understand.

He wasn't ESTp. If he were ESTp, he would have tried to expand the empire as much as he could. ESTps are no type to "dwell" on luxuries when they have the possbility to conquer and command, that is, when they have the possibility to employ their program function at their best.

[Dioklecian]

Thank you for your views.

If even Rocky can see him as ISTp, the matter is settled for me. Kristiina, that is what I thought too.

I had thought of ESTp and ISFp as possible alternatives but ISTp seemed most likely. I did not want people to think that I think that he is a typical ISTp.

The person is Commodus, Emperor of Rome 180-192. The historical Commodus was a very different person from the way he was portrayed in Gladiator; but I guess that if he was shown as he really was, modern audiences would simply not believe it.

I would still say ESTP for Commodus, in particular if you contrast his exceesses with known ISTP emperors. I think that ethics are very important as a hidden agenda, whereas Commodus was completely lacking from what I understand.

He wasn't ESTp. If he were ESTp, he would have tried to expand the empire as much as he could. ESTps are no type to "dwell" on luxuries when they have the possbility to conquer and command, that is, when they have the possibility to employ their program function at their best.

He sounds similar to Herman Goering to me. After securing a position of power he went on a bingy spree .

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[FDG]

He wasn't ESTp. If he were ESTp, he would have tried to expand the empire as much as he could. ESTps are no type to "dwell" on luxuries when they have the possbility to conquer and command, that is, when they have the possibility to employ their program function at their best.

Well, you get tired of working or learning information or talking about stuff don't ya? I'm sure Ne types get tired of new things and ideas or whatever the fuck Ne is supposed to be about. Fe types probably get tired of people/emotions whatever. Etc., etc., etc.

Of course, but he didn't even start.

Besides, I think sports can be an expression of both, but it's a far-fetched guess of mine. Se is more about the powerful and gross movements, whereas Si for the fine-tuned precise movements.

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[Dioklecian]

Of course, but he didn't even start.

Yeah, I am just playing devil's advocate here. Doing the whole elimination of the Se and Ne sterotypes that Se is about conquring the world and Ne is about being a scientist. Those stereotypes are only true in about 10% of the cases really.

Besides, I think sports can be an expression of both, but it's a far-fetched guess of mine. Se is more about the powerful and gross movements, whereas Si for the fine-tuned precise movements.

Then I guess it would be a question of what sports? Anyway, I would really guess that most sports use all the functions, but and would be the functions that I would most want on my team, because it isn't really about talent, but tenacity really.

How is tenacious? I though that is about tenacity.

[Expat]

I think may well be more about being into sports than , at least violent sports. The problem is that dominant types also have strong and vice-versa.

I think that what makes Commodus more likely than is precisely that he did not feel motivated to actively exercise his power over others; one gets the impression that self-indulgence in terms of having a good time was his chief motivation.

It is illuminating to compare Commodus to other tyrannical emperors such as Caligula and Caracalla, who were likely ESTp. They also liked to have a good time and were sports-mad; but unlike Commodus, they were active in (mis)ruling the empire and in trying to expand it, as FDG mentioned.

Commodus is different from another ISTp emperor, Tiberius, but it must be taken into account that Commodus became emperor at 19; Tiberius, at 55.

[Kristiina]

I'm just glad I typed him correctly (according to the way we use the socionics theory.) In a way I considered this a test of my typing skills.

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[Dioklecian]

I obviously could be wrong, but here are some Se traits that I found in his bio:

Commodus began to dress like the god Hercules, wearing lion skins and carrying a club.[[12]] Thus he appropriated the Antonines' traditional identification with Hercules, but even more aggressively. Commodus' complete identification with Hercules can be seen as an attempt to solidify his claim as new founder of Rome, which he now called the Colonia Lucia Annia Commodiana. This was legitimized by his direct link to Hercules, son of Father Jupiter.[[13]] He probably took the title of Hercules officially some time before mid-September 192.[[14]]

While the literary sources, especially Dio, Herodian, and the Historia Augusta, all ridicule the antics of his later career, they also give important insight into Commodus' relationship to the people.[[15]] His most important maneuver to solidify his claims as Hercules Romanus was to show himself as the god to the Roman people by taking part in spectacles in the amphitheater. Not only would Commodus fight and defeat the most skilled gladiators, he would also test his talents by encountering the most ferocious of the beasts.[[16]] Commodus won all of his bouts against the gladiators.[[17]] The slayer of wild beasts, Hercules, was the mythical symbol of Commodus' rule, as protector of the Empire.[[18]]

[Expat]

These are indeed traits, but as I said ISTps also have . Altogether it seems that was his main drive.

The fact that he had traits does not automatically make him an ESTp, please take also a look at the arguments for . You tend to look only at the arguments that support your point, Dioklecian, rather than balance them against others.

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[Expat]

Why would an type (while being thier "type") risk thier own personal being?

The historical Commodus did not really fight gladiators "for real", ie in the sense of actually being in danger of getting seriously hurt.

[Dioklecian]

These are indeed traits, but as I said ISTps also have . Altogether it seems that was his main drive.

The fact that he had traits does not automatically make him an ESTp, please take also a look at the arguments for . You tend to look only at the arguments that support your point, Dioklecian, rather than balance them against others.

I am sorry, I guess I tend to do that automatically in my head (that is balancing the viewpoints).

Si I am sure was present, but Si is about a comfort zone I think, not about showmanship. Commodus strikes me as a person that loved to be the center of attention. The other ISTP emperor that we were discussing a while back, Tiberius, left Rome entirely so that he could enjoy his comfort away from the hussle and bussle of the metropoli.

despite his administrative abilities he showed such reluctance in running the state as to retire entirely from Rome and live out his last years in isolation on the island of Capri.

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[Polly_G]

I was thinking ESTp but I agree with how the ESTp needs to expand. My experience with an ESTp boss was that she would take on a project, then deligate it poorly, then run off to get more projects for people to do who were already stretched too thin as it was.

If you tried to stop her, you became her enemy.

[Rocky]

Besides, sports can be the ultimate Se, because it is directly connected to what you can physically do. (Although, for Rocky, sports is Si and only Si and Si is only sports, but whateva...)

Then why would I say that there are ENTP athletes that you disagree with.

[Rocky]

I think may well be more about being into sports than , at least violent sports.

Hmm... Si doesn't like violence... tell that to Mike Tyson, lol.

[Dioklecian]

I think may well be more about being into sports than , at least violent sports.

Hmm... Si doesn't like violence... tell that to Mike Tyson, lol.

I think what ****** means is that Si seeks comfort, being a gladiator is not necessarily the most comfy job in the world.

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[Rocky]

@Dio: no. Comfort is a weakness caused by false illusions. Si may create their own comfort level (it's more like an adaptable function).

@Transigent: oh really? That's fine...

But, maybe you should at least consider the other perspective first. You know, maybe at least give any good reason why Tyson is not Si. If anything, Si (like I've said in the past) is merely the concentrated, intensive form of Se. Plus, Tyson himself has shown to be too strong of a reflective thinker, and even described as a recluse.

[Expat]

I think may well be more about being into sports than , at least violent sports.

Hmm... Si doesn't like violence... tell that to Mike Tyson, lol.

Actually I'd be inclined to type Tyson as ISTp too, but what I don't understand is that you all seem to be reasoning as if being dominant meant you had weak . I think Tyson and Commodus show traits, just like ESTp also show traits.

[Dioklecian]

@Dio: no. Comfort is a weakness caused by false illusions. Si may create their own comfort level (it's more like an adaptable function).

Could you expand on that? I don't seem to understand your view of Si.

[Rocky]

Si is different from MBTI-Si. If you are thinking along those lines, then you may see Si as sort of a "J" function.

However, Si is of course perceiving, which is why it is more "adaptable". IMO, Si isn't so much concentrated on keeping things they way they were to be comfortable, but finding ways to make yourself comfortable (for instance one time one of my teachers told me that I could fit in anywhere).

[Park]

IMO, Si isn't so much concentrated on keeping things they way they were to be comfortable, but finding ways to make yourself comfortable.

I thought that's exactly what Si is about and that's the main reason I relate to Si. (I'm confused, maybe you could eloborate?) And the second part of your sentence sounds more like dual-seeking-Si to me.

As for the tyrant, he sounds more ESTp than ISTp to me.

[Jack Oliver Aaron]

Expat's analysis: http://worldsocionics.blogspot.co.uk...-analysis.html

"We have information on the 18th Roman Emperor, Commodus, from the writings of ancient historians (one of whom, Cassius Dio, was a Senator and knew Commodus personally) and from extensive archaelogical evidence.

Commodus became sole emperor on the the death of his father, Marcus Aurelius, in 180 CE, at the age of 19. At least nominally he had already been co-emperor for a few years.

For the previous 40 years, the emperors, although in reality absolute monarchs, had behaved as aristocratic yet approachable rulers of impeccable personal morals, in a sort of Victorian fashion, while assuming the role of commander-in-chief when necessary and spending much time on actual administration.

Commodus changed radically the public and private role of the emperor, in ways that were unprecedented and completely baffled contemporaries. They were not a response to circumstances since his "innovations" were almost all reversed after his death. So they must be attributed to his personal psychology alone (no modern historian disputes this - the only discussion is on what was he thinking).

Commodus changed the role of the emperor in the following way, gradually:

• withdrew from active personal involvement on actual governing, relying on appointed favorites, while retaining authority by sacking and/or executing them whenever he felt they might be a threat to his own position
• radically changed the public image of the emperor: he started presenting himself as the living incarnation of Hercules, appearing in Hercules's lion skin in statues and coins, and even personally (all of which was totally unprecedented) and calling himself Hercules, also in coins
• a superb athlete, he started appearing in the Colosseum killing (from a safe position) animals with javelins, arrows, etc, showing off his skills
• Cassius Dio reports: "And here is another thing that he did to us senators which gave us every reason to look for our death. Having killed an ostrich and cut off his head, he came up to where we were sitting, holding the head in his left hand and in his right hand raising aloft his bloody sword; and though he spoke not a word, yet he wagged his head with a grin, indicating that he would treat us in the same way. And many would indeed have perished by the sword on the spot, for laughing at him (for it was laughter rather than indignation that overcame us), if I had not chewed some laurel leaves, which I got from my garland, myself, and persuaded the others who were sitting near me to do the same, so that in the steady movement of our jaws we might conceal the fact that we were laughing."
• also according to Dio (and confirmed by inscriptions): "whatever honours they had been wont to vote to his father out of affection they were now compelled out of fear and by direct command to assign also to the son. He actually ordered that Rome itself should be called Commodiana, the legions Commodian, and the day on which these measures were voted Commodiana. Upon himself he bestowed, in addition to a great many other names, that of Hercules. Rome he styled the "Immortal, Fortunate Colony of the Whole Earth"; for he wished it to be regarded as a settlement of his own. In his honour a gold statue was erected of a thousand pounds weight, representing him together with a bull and a cow. Finally, all the months were named after him, so that they were enumerated as follows: Amazonius, Invictus, Felix, Pius,Lucius, Aelius, Aurelius, Commodus, Augustus, Herculeus, Romanus, Exsuperatorius. For he himself assumed these several titles at different times, but "Amazonius" and "Exsuperatorius" he applied constantly to himself, to indicate that in every respect he surpassed absolutely all mankind superlatively; so superlatively mad had the abandoned wretch become. And to the senate he would send messages couched in these terms: "The Emperor Caesar Lucius Aelius Aurelius Commodus Augustus Pius Felix Sarmaticus Germanicus Maximus Britannicus, Pacifier of the Whole Earth, Invincible, the Roman Hercules, Pontifex Maximus, Holder of the Tribunician Authority for the eighteenth time, Imperator for the eighth time, Consul for the seventh time, Father of his Country, to consuls, praetors, tribunes, and the fortunate Commodian senate, Greeting." Vast numbers of statues were erected representing him in the garb of Hercules. And it was voted that his age should be named the "Golden Age," and that this should be recorded in all the records without exception."
• also without precedent: he changed the millennial slogan, SPQR, 'The Senate and the People of Rome', to PSQR, 'The People and the Senate of Rome'

Obviously Dio and others just thought Commodus was nuts. But from the point of view of Socionics:

Clearly one of his goals was to constantly remind the Senate, and those serving him, who was boss. He did that not only through actual use of power but also through public humiliation and self-promotion. That puts him firmly in a F quadra.

He also put huge focus in a total revamping of the emperor's image, as the incarnation of Hercules (the personification of F, by the way) not only by his own performances, but also through coins and inscriptions (the social media of the time). That, and actions such as his theatrical intimidation of the Senators, point to E, and E blocked with F.

That puts Commodus squarely in the Beta quadra. His overall theme of totally restructuring the concept of the emperorship is also a Beta theme.

Since his most visible actions were related to E and F, with some T symbolism, besides his active behavior, EIE and SLE are more likely than LSI or IEI. But it was noted that Commodus, although indeed a strong man and superb athlete, was more into staged performances than actual competitive use of F. The Senators who laughed at him - who had seen war themselves - obviously saw his actual personal F as silly, while fearing the F of his position.

All of that points to EIE as Commodus's type, with SLE possible but less likely."



It's interesting to see how Expat's understanding of Socionics has changed over the past 10 years.

[Beautiful sky]

I think may well be more about being into sports than , at least violent sports. The problem is that dominant types also have strong and vice-versa.

I think that what makes Commodus more likely than is precisely that he did not feel motivated to actively exercise his power over others; one gets the impression that self-indulgence in terms of having a good time was his chief motivation.

It is illuminating to compare Commodus to other tyrannical emperors such as Caligula and Caracalla, who were likely ESTp. They also liked to have a good time and were sports-mad; but unlike Commodus, they were active in (mis)ruling the empire and in trying to expand it, as FDG mentioned.

Commodus is different from another ISTp emperor, Tiberius, but it must be taken into account that Commodus became emperor at 19; Tiberius, at 55.

Culture was not taken into consideration when typing him here It was almost standard and customary for men to engage in sports. Sport engagement is not type related.

[Beautiful sky]

Other things are not taken into consideration here that many people would and did kill rulers so that his threatening actions such as cutting an animal's head and displaying it would not have been uncommon. He seems more democratic in that he changed the name to "the people and the Senate" delta don't necessarily change existing institutions and overhaul it. But also this action can be rearrangement of a system so can be totally Ti.

I think SEE would be a good typing.

[Olimpia]

Based on the information from the OP, he strikes me rather as SEE (likely Se subtype), too.

Having said that, a friend of mine typed Commodus in the movie "Gladiator" as an EIE. For the movie portrayal of his, I could see it somewhat.
But looking at the "facts" so to speak, I find the "real" Commodus was most likely Se lead and Fi valuing/Creative, aka SEE. Perhaps he was SLE, though his Te seems too "weak" to be 4D.
All in all, I find Se lead rather certain.

P.S: He also sounds very SX 3 to me.