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    Default Vegetarianism

    I wonder if the reasons someone might have for becoming a vegetarian might be related to their type. Anyway, for whatever reason, type or coincidence, most vegetarians I know IRL are Beta, and the rest are Delta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    I wonder if the reasons someone might have for becoming a vegetarian might be related to their type.
    No idea, I don't know any vegetarians.

    Anyway, for whatever reason, type or coincidence, most vegetarians I know IRL are Beta
    Seems like they never had tasty meat in them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    Anyway, for whatever reason, type or coincidence, most vegetarians I know IRL are Beta, and the rest are Delta.
    That could be true. I know a girl who is a vegetarian and she could be ENFj, but I'm not sure. Another guy who might be ISTp, too.
    I'm not a vegetarian.
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    hmm I've known three people who I'm fairly sure of their type that are vegetarians or vegans.
    Ones an EIE, has been a vegan since she learned about where meat and animal bi-products came from. She is passionate about animals and has been volunteering for the SPCA since highschool.

    A probable SLI who gave up meat, but eats fish, when making a radical healthy lifestyle change. She did a lot of research on how the slaughter industry works and the effects of meat on the body; she'll often quote facts about it and such.

    An IEI who was raised by vegetarian parents, he isn't as passionate about the ethics of eating meat as they are but still doesn't think it's right

    I have no idea if this is consistent with type, but the two NF's are more concerned about the ethics involved whereas the ST looks at it from a more personal logical point of view
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    I am not a vegetarian, but I don't eat meat every day as it is expensive. I would consider vegetarianism if I were doing it for my health, but I have no personal convictions against eating meat, so what's to stop me from eating it at least once in a while, yk? Even if I were doing it for my health, I wouldn't have to be strict about it...

    The life of a true vegetarian would just be too strict for me; having to keep track of what I ate, and having to plan all my meals to make sure I got my complete proteins; or showing up at a party and not being able to eat anything except the crackers because everyone else are meat lovers lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    I would consider vegetarianism if I were doing it for my health, but I have no personal convictions against eating meat, so what's to stop me from eating it at least once in a while, yk? Even if I were doing it for my health, I wouldn't have to be strict about it...l
    Yup, it ain't that "healthy" in the long run but hey, choice is yours.

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    My friends are vegetarians for different reasons:

    SEE - because they want to preserve nature and be kind to animals...
    SEI - because they want to better take care of themselves and their bodies...

    I also know many SLI's who are vegetarians for the same Si reasons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    SEE - because they want to preserve nature and be kind to animals...


    Last edited by Absurd; 01-01-2011 at 04:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    I wonder if the reasons someone might have for becoming a vegetarian might be related to their type.
    with Betas and Deltas, i think the reasons might be related to Aristocracy (associating themselves with people who think like them - same beliefs, convictions, lifestyle choices, etc.) with Humanitarian (NF) ideology and activism.

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    This thread is awesome....we've named every quadra
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    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    with Betas and Deltas, i think the reasons might be related to Aristocracy (associating themselves with people who think like them - same beliefs, convictions, lifestyle choices, etc.) with Humanitarian (NF) ideology and activism.
    I have always wondered. A vegetarian eats vegetables but what does a humanitarian eat ?

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    Eating meat is directly correlated to valuing Se/Ni because of the brute, savage nature that Se valuers innately possess. As Se is brute force and power, an air of dominion sort of permeates everything the Se ego does, particularly the ESXps where being oppressive and savage is like breathing. These people have a peculiar habit of jumping on large slabs of raw meat if presented with such an opportunity, since the Se leading types are controlled by their impulses. It's a little more mediated and played down in the ISXjs, but if they ever get a chance to strike on a hunk of steak or a quadruple-decker hamburger you know they'll be on it before you have the chance to breathe.

    In this way, Ni egos can fall into one of two extremes: the hippies who don't feel that they can adequately devour the meat in question, or those who who overcompensate for their deficiency in an animalistic nature by eating as much meat as they can. The former group of people tend to be INXps, those who need the everpresent Se monsters to teach them how to unleash their voracious inner animals. The latter situation is more commonly associated with Se HA, types who have a more conscious and controlled desire to rend living creatures of their flesh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Eating meat is directly correlated to valuing Se/Ni because of the brute, savage nature that Se valuers innately possess. As Se is brute force and power, an air of dominion sort of permeates everything the Se ego does, particularly the ESXps where being oppressive and savage is like breathing. These people have a peculiar habit of jumping on large slabs of raw meat if presented with such an opportunity, since the Se leading types are controlled by their impulses. It's a little more mediated and played down in the ISXjs, but if they ever get a chance to strike on a hunk of steak or a quadruple-decker hamburger you know they'll be on it before you have the chance to breathe.

    In this way, Ni egos can fall into one of two extremes: the hippies who don't feel that they can adequately devour the meat in question, or those who who overcompensate for their deficiency in an animalistic nature by eating as much meat as they can. The former group of people tend to be INXps, those who need the everpresent Se monsters to teach them how to unleash their voracious inner animals. The latter situation is more commonly associated with Se HA, types who have a more conscious and controlled desire to rend living creatures of their flesh.
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    There's only one problem - I eat it already dead, not alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton2 View Post
    It's said that the transition early proto-humans undertook from predominantly herbivorous diets to carnivorous diets, had a lot to do with catalyzing growth of the large brains modern humans now possess. A view that makes some sense considering that the metabolic demands of a large brain are rather difficult to fulfill without a rich calorie source like animals provide, along with abundant fats+proteins.
    This is true, I also heard of that. In the early development of the human, those had averagely largers brains who lived in rather barren regions in the north without a full year supply of plants to eat. Especially in the winter, they had to hunt animals and eat them to survive, since they didn't knew any techniques to conserve food. The protein in the meat let the brain grow, as well as muscles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton2 View Post

    most vegetarians look rather unhealthy to me—skin is usually paler and somewhat papery looking, hair is thinner and more brittle, eyes bloodshot. Among other off-putting cues that make it seem like not a good idea lol.
    Really guy...

    Anyways, I was once a raw food vegan, now pescatarian. I chose the lifestyle for health and fitness reasons, then I later discovered moral and economic reasons to strengthen my resolve. The poor little cows and chickens won't have to endure a lifetime of a literal living hell, placed upon them in courtesy of "The Rich People" that I may get my high cholesterol, artery clogging, saturated, slobbery, fatty fix for a quarter hours time. I don't need meat, I need macro-nutrients, vitamins, minerals and antioxidants, all found in plants... and yes there is protein and fats in plants, loads, enough to sustain our livestock, gorillas and vegan athletes. The one thing plants can't give me is b12, which is derived from bacteria in human/animal intestines. The body stores this vitamin for a very long time, thus vegan/vegetarians need not worry, for many foods are fortified with b12, but then a lot of these "processed" foods contain loads of high glycemic carbohydrates, and some even containing hydrogenated oils. Pescatarians like myself can eat a fish now and then, which have all the essential amino acids, loads of omega-3 fatty acids, and of course b12... and trace amounts of mercury.

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    What type(s) are most likely to resort to breatharianism?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    I have always wondered. A vegetarian eats vegetables but what does a humanitarian eat ?
    I eat meat because it's a logical part of the human diet. I don't eat it all the time and I try to buy it from animal friendly farms (organic/free range).
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    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

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    More than most of my diet is pure meat. I think it's downright barbaric the way vegetarians treat plant-beings. I vowed a long time ago that I would only eat plants if I was sure to die without.
    Last edited by Crispy; 01-02-2011 at 08:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    with Betas and Deltas, i think the reasons might be related to Aristocracy (associating themselves with people who think like them - same beliefs, convictions, lifestyle choices, etc.) with Humanitarian (NF) ideology and activism.
    Possibly. I'm vegetarian btw. For me it just doesn't feel that good to eat meat/animal products. I guess you could call that or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    I have no idea if this is consistent with type, but the two NF's are more concerned about the ethics involved whereas the ST looks at it from a more personal logical point of view
    I know an SLI who thought it was pretentious to be vegetarian so as not to hurt animals, but now I think she's vegetarian for health reasons and to not support the industry - but that's a moral reason too.

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    I'm a vegetarian, but not for any moral reasons. I just don't like the taste of meat, and haven't since I was tiny. The only moral vegetarian I know is SEE and she stopped being a vegetarian and became a pescatarian a while back.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

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    GO VEGETARIANS!

    Both my parents are vegetarian, and I was raised as a vegetarian, so I never really had the impulse to go over to the dark side. Actually, being raised vegetarian gave me an ingrained aversion to meat, so the idea of becoming a meat-eater kind of repulses me now. I figure that's a good thing because my eating habits are already pretty unhealthy, so leaving meat out of the equation is probably the one thing about my diet that I can confidently call healthy. That, and my salad addiction.

    I know a couple other vegetarians -- a hardline moral-vegetarian EII, and an LIE who "converted" to vegetarianism after taking a philosophy class in ethics where they determined that meat-eating is WRONG! Everyone else I know falls into one of two camps for the most part: either being around me brings out their vegetarian tendencies, or they endlessly make fun of me for being vegetarian.

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    lol. I almost forgot to mention that two EIE I know personally are both vegetarians...go beta veggies. LOL
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    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

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    I didn't mean to imply that all vegetarians are Beta and Delta, just that it seems to have worked that way among my aquaintances. Maybe I just know more people in those two quadras or something. And I do think people's motivation for avoiding meat could be related to their type. Like maybe people of any type could be veg but some types might be more or less likely for whatever reason (say, aristocracy) and, of any type, the specific reasons could be type-related.

    It occurred to me because I volunteered to make food for an event and I was asked to bring a vegan dish, and the two people who are vegan who will be there happen to be Beta. I thought, "Hmm I know a lot of Beta and Delta vegetarians or vegans but not people of other types. Odd." Could just be chance. Not a burning issue, but I wondered what others had noticed, or what vegetarians here thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I converted Glamourama into a omnivore and this is my proudest accomplishment yet.
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    Why do people care about what cows feel? Serious question: I don't, personally, and I'm curious why other people do.

    And don't say to me "Would you like to be packed in a pen?" I'm a human being, not a cow. I have a more sophisticated brain, my species produces culture, and the majority of us add something of value to the world. Slaughter animals do none of these things, except providing enjoyment to people who want to eat them.

    For anyone playing the "morality" card, by what ethical system is it morally wrong? Can you explain your moral beliefs to me?

    That said I've lived off rice and beans in the name of saving money, but when I can afford meat, I've no problems eating it.
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    Although it's not in itself a fully coherent moral system, there does seem something wrong with putting animals through pain... Actually, it's not even an argument against eating meat, actually, but there are people who don't eat meat because of the suffering the animals need to go through, but if such suffering were avoided, could be convinced to eat meat.

    There are people who argue that life, any life, has value, and that killing an animal's life, even if it isn't capable of doing much, is morally wrong because of this value. Beliefs like Buddhism, for example, have reincarnation as why you shouldn't kill animals. There are, naturally, a few responses to this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat King Cole View Post
    Why do people care about what cows feel? Serious question: I don't, personally, and I'm curious why other people do.

    And don't say to me "Would you like to be packed in a pen?" I'm a human being, not a cow. I have a more sophisticated brain, my species produces culture, and the majority of us add something of value to the world. Slaughter animals do none of these things, except providing enjoyment to people who want to eat them.

    For anyone playing the "morality" card, by what ethical system is it morally wrong? Can you explain your moral beliefs to me?

    That said I've lived off rice and beans in the name of saving money, but when I can afford meat, I've no problems eating it.
    My response would be: imagine you're a cow, and this is your one life. I think humans often try to undermine the experience of life for other species, saying that they're not as intelligent, not as sophisticated, not as {whatever}. But if you're a cow and this is your one life, that experience is everything (all there is). And to take it away is a huge loss (the loss of everything). I think it's unfair for humans to make countless assumptions about what the experience of life is like for another creature and use this as justification for mistreatment. At the very least we could try to have some respect. I don't think I'm really playing the morality card here, because as I said before I currently eat some animals (although I'm thinking lately that I just need to stop). I still don't know how to justify what I do or don't do and this has been a conflict for me probably since I was 12 where I tend to go back and forth on whether I think it's okay to eat meat for varying reasons. There are some animals I think it is absolutely wrong for humans to eat, kill, torture/harm or hold in captivity (and yes, these are the obviously intelligent animals with complex brains, feelings, memories, etc). The problem is that I don't know where to draw the line. Animals I see as "like me" I feel should have the full range of rights; where as animals like fish, I think, well, everyone eats them anyway, it's just the way it is being a fish. However it's interesting that I would consider killing or hurting a dog or cat wrong, while at the same time I don't seem to feel so passionately about what happens to pigs, cattle or chickens. It's all a subjective mess in my mind. But what I want is simply respect that the lives of others are valuable. I just can't figure out how to apply this in action in a way where I won't always be conflicted about it, while understanding that this isn't simply about a successful resolution of my inner conflicts. I think this conflict is arising out of being a highly cerebral omnivore, to some extent. If I can survive just fine with the right diet that doesn't include meat, then shouldn't I? My current dietary practices arise out of simple laziness. Other predators in nature eat other animals because they have to (possibly with the exception of Orcas)--but I don't have to. This puts me in a questionable place because I have options and can make a choice. If I didn't have options it wouldn't matter--then it would just be a choice of doing what I need to to live, or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat King Cole View Post
    Why do people care about what cows feel? Serious question: I don't, personally, and I'm curious why other people do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cat King Cole View Post
    For anyone playing the "morality" card, by what ethical system is it morally wrong? Can you explain your moral beliefs to me?
    Hedonistic calculus: If an action causes more pain than pleasure, it is an morally bad action.
    Life imprisonment causes lots of mental anxiety. Although I don't feel it's wrong to purchase meat, I just think it is wrong.
    I can do a lot of morally questionable things without flinching, yet I restrain myself out of sense of responsibility.
    Too many things feel wrong, yet aren't and too many things don't feel wrong, but are.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    S.T.E.A.K

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Ok I'm not against meat but you can't pretend that the lack of malintent makes torture ok. You need a better reason, like "eating meat matters more to me than not torturing other sentient beings."
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Ok I'm not against meat but you can't pretend that the lack of malintent makes torture ok. You need a better reason, like "eating meat matters more to me than not torturing other sentient beings."
    It doesn't make torture ok, but I don't view it as torture nor do I view food animals as sentient(as far as my interpretation of the term). I won't eat greater primates or dolphins for the reasons that I think these animals might be sentient(as far as my interpretation of the term).

    I am positive towards humane farming practices and hope industrialized agriculture continue to adopt these processes where it is cost effective.

    I also eat a lot more vegetables then most Americans and am very fond of them.

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    Who's up for torture?

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    @hkkmr: If you don't view it as torture you either haven't been privy to the conditions food animals are raised and kept under, or you are being totally disingenuous. Unless your definition of the word torture means deliberate harm; either way, they do suffer a lot.

    Re: sentience, these animals feel pain. What else really matters?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    @hkkmr: If you don't view it as torture you either haven't been privy to the conditions food animals are raised and kept under, or you are being totally disingenuous. Unless your definition of the word torture means deliberate harm; either way, they do suffer a lot.

    Re: sentience, these animals feel pain. What else really matters?
    I think they suffer, and I am privy to the conditions food animals live in since I have family that do small scale farming as well as industrial farming. I have lived in a small farm before as well as participated in the slaughter of chickens, pigs, ducks, geese, fish, etc. I certainly did not do this with any malice or desire to see it suffer, and all care was taken to kill these animals in the fastest and most painless manner. There are many conditions in industrial farming which are not pleasant and I think there is quite a bit of callousness in the industry, but I don't view it as torture, nor I do I see people going out of their way to inflict pain on these animals.

    Quote Originally Posted by webster definition of torture
    a: anguish of body or mind :agonyb : something that causes agony or pain

    2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure


    Quote Originally Posted by another definition of torture
    1.a. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
    b. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.

    2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
    3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.
    There are a few definitions here with a great range of interpretation, but some of them are rather confusing since then a great deal of life would be torture. I think your definition of torture is too ambiguous for me to comment on. Not all suffering is torture. There is plenty of suffering and pain that just happens in the daily give and take of life.

    My definitions of torture are more like this.

    2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

    Or

    1. a. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.

    I think it's sad that agriculture is more like this


    and this


    People are suffering for vegetables too. I am very much in favor of improved conditions for workers and animals alike.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Ok enough with the bullshit. The point is that people willingly inflict excessive physical pain on animals beyond what natural predation merits, and the REAL issue is that the corporations who are responsible for this could easily afford more humane methods, but fail to do so because it would take money out of their bulging pockets.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    the REAL issue is that the corporations who are responsible for this could easily afford more humane methods, but fail to do so because it would take money out of their bulging pockets.
    I agree.

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    I'm an omnivore so I post this in a light-hearted way, not in a preachy way:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/smiteme/4170866438/

    (can't post photo for some reason so posting link.)
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    "Argues that humans are different from other animals,and therefore eating them is morally justified"

    The intent is obvious but grammatically it suggests that eating humans is ok. lol.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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