He VIs like SEI-, he clearly values and promotes self-expression () and subjective sensation (). He is critical of American society, which is very gamma/LIE. His criticism of American society is largely directed at religious fundies though, which I don't associate with LIE or NTs in general. He is not fundamentally anti-American, but he hates how American society stifles his persona and self-expression (according to him). I think he is the opposite of gamma, where gammas wanna be productive in real world scenarios ( and ) he wants to express himself () in a subjective way ( and ).
His enneagram: 4w5 sx
I was thinking of people I had known and met irl. For example, when I was a teenager, my EII friend liked to go to a store in my town that sold occult supplies, the shop owner, also named Brian fwiw, looked alot like Manson. He practiced Wicca "the craft" had long, flowing, dark hair was soft spoken, didn't laugh at my jokes, and was also a really nice guy. From what I remember he reminded me of Manson, physically, though it could also just be a style thing. The expression in Manson's eyes is very similar.
Now that I think about it, I think Amy Lee looks like Manson, again, it could be a style thing, but I think there is a resemblance in the gaze:
Amy Lee is SEI imo, but probably the subtype.
I saw mentioning how Si egos often try to avoid disturbing elements due to this, and I know this is not really a statistically relevant pattern (one person), but I remember how an ESE friend of mine also mentioned once how he was afraid of disturbing things, and often wanted to help me to get out of my room when I spent 3 days in a row reading about the most obscure and horrifying things, offered me a drink, a hug, and took me to a place with fluffy cats. Which I'm not sure I really need, but it makes him very happy, and it's a way he shows his care towards his friends.
Or did you think this is exactly what Manson is against, and using these images in an ironic way? I'm happy to listen to your reasoning, as I said, I don't know a lot about Si really (yet).
That being said, I never looked at the question of this way. People who like disturbing things and imagery are (much) more rare than those who don't. Most people like comfort in an emotional and psycholigical way, myself included, and I'm polr, though I think there are varying thresholds of what people consider "horrible".
You raise an interesting point, though I myself haven't explored the question enough to really address it.
In his journal he also seemed to jump into a way of living, that consisted of hellish and horrible conditions, involving pretty amoral and chaotic shit (this could be caused by many other factors too, of course, one being that he wanted to experience the exact opposite of the Christian childhood and environment that he was living in before). I feel his dark imagery is more of a self-expression, not only a way to mock Stepford Wives, but showing his own darkness as well. But I think you have a point besides the whole society agenda he is against - he became what people fear the most. In that, I can see myself (even more, when I was a teenager), similar to a "okay, you are afraid of your darkness, I will become yours, and at the same time I will show the beauty of it).
What I was wondering of, would Si doms be more prone to avoid these types of mental imageries and states of mind, or am I totally misunderstanding what an Si dom is? I know all these typology systems are about generalizations, but I still feel weird about asking a question straight up like this, as this can be based on so many other factors, haha. I guess I'm wondering about the official (?) viewpoint on Si, which I'm sure doesn't exist in the end.
I should probably read more about the function though.
Manson is a great example of the SEI-Fe cognition running on the dramatic 4w3 character type. SX/SPer. (The 4w3 character type has a predisposition towards borderline personality disorder.). SEI-Fe is the dark subtype of SEI. By dark means negatively charged -- edgier, more intense.
Marilyn Manson's cognition in a nutshell: Si collects sensations, objects, symbols, visuals, even ideas that cause a certain sensation, and Fe-creative chooses among that collection as to which will produce the desired emotional responses from his audience. Ni-role sees outside the box as to ways that those chosen sensations can then be imaginatively organized/collaged in a way that reflects a basic message, theme.
Gaahl (sheep's head on a stake)
Ozzy Osbourne (birds to bite the heads off of)
Wendy O. Williams (televisions and cars to smash)
Marilyn Manson's reputation for the grotesque speaks for itself..
Now, adds in the caveats. Fe subtype puts a more intense and edgy angle on it. Also, type four being in the reactive triad gives it a more intense charge. The 3 wing adds a level of performance and exhibitionism. Also, sx/sp being a dark, edgy, confrontational stacking raises this particular combination to the crème of the crop in terms of grotesque. i.e. you have Marilyn Manson and Ozzy Osbourne, the two kings of the Fe-creative, Ni-role style grotesque.
Practical ways to tell apart SEI vs IEI: Manson's cognition is too crude for an IEI. SEIs also have a propensity for making inferences about people based purely on physical characteristics. That's another good disqualifier for the IEI cognition. Ni/Fe converts inner worlds into new modes of expression.
Needless to say, he's a perfect fit for the SEI-Fe VI:
learn the foundations and the typings practically takes care of itself.
Click here for my expanded view on Si and the Arts.
Last edited by Kill4Me; 08-08-2018 at 03:35 PM.
I would buy SEI before any beta NF tbh. It seems like there's still this lingering misconception that anything grotesque or dramatic is automatically beta, when really it's about how said qualities are expressed. Some guy paints his face similarly to Manson and suddenly they're both Si-polr, when the whole point of polr is that it's something we eschew, i.e. Si in that position would lead to a reticence towards such appearance games. Anyway in Manson's case it comes down to the fact that—and this isn't a negative characterization—his drama is far too overt and all over the place for any beta type to work. His cultural commentary bleeds from every aspect of his self-expression in a kind of ingenuously childlike way. Betas tend to keep things a little more implicit, even when going off.
Last edited by khcs; 08-13-2018 at 06:30 AM.
Still, I think a SEI would find a way to express their disturbing feelings in a way that still turned out beautiful and pleasing, somehow. Maybe more of a 'gothic' aesthetic. Marilyn Manson's style is pretty much just repulsive, there's nothing sublime or soothing about it to look at, period. Wikisocion has him pinned as ILE-Ti: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/26951297749906843/ I'm leaning towards him being the "type inverse of SEI"-ILE. He VIs as ILE, looking past all that makeup. ILEs and SEIs share the same IM values, so it's possible he'd be an ILE trying to supply the Si and Fe parts of his psyche in whatever way he can.
After all, do all sociotypes really pursue their strongest/most talented ego functions? I haven't always, for what my personal experience is worth. I used to test as an NT in myers briggs because I was trying to use my logic and intutition all the time, and other people even thought I was probably NT. In actuality I didn't use logic/intuition very well, but I sure tried. I didn't believe in the value of artistic or expressive abilities, and it took me a long time to realize I was happiest, most natural, and most energized/competent, when using sensing and feeling.
So, an unusually sensuality-concerned and disturbed ILE is my best guess, here
Anyways, I see where you're coming from with Manson, I find him an enigma to type. SEI was my best guess and it seemed better than beta NF (which is what I used to type Manson as) but maybe something about that doesn't feel right either. I don't know. But I do think that Manson's style being off beat like it is, to say the least, is what makes him hard to type. When you think about it, not many people dress like him, if any at all. This makes people ponder different types from dom to polr, because we don't really know what makes a person dress like him, confidence in or lack of it.
Oh and btw, not to be anal, but the gallery you posted is not wikisocion, it is the Socionix gallery. Wikisocion allwos users to type celebs but I don't believe they have an official stance on celebrities' types.
I agree, he is an enigma here. I'm still leaning towards ILE, but it's only my best guess. Beta NF doesn't seem right to me, either. If he's not ILE, then SEI would be my second guess. After that, maaybe I could see some kind of NF for him
Oh I see, so the pin is not really official, then. Thanks for the correction!
Yeah I think it is good to explore things outside of your strong functions, to use all your valued aspects but maybe keep the strong functions for your profession and the weaker ones for hobbies.
I find the Socionix gallery pretty good actually, even if it's not an official wikisocion thing.
Last edited by silke; 08-28-2018 at 11:43 AM.
Just a correction: I was (apparently) mistaken about socionix not being connected to wikisocion.
The typings of celebs in this wikisocion list is identical to their typings in the socionix gallery. http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p..._famous_people
I don't know who manages either though, I'm just saying I noticed both pages's typing of celebs is identical.
Last edited by Uncle Ave; 08-28-2018 at 02:39 PM.
I love Marilyn Manson. I think he's ILE-Ti, simply because of his originality and revolutionary sexuality. You usually don't see EIEs that are that open about their own sexuality.
Last edited by Disturbed; 12-24-2019 at 12:13 AM.
"The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools." ―Thucydides