ILEs can definitely be shy. However I stand by Manson as IEI.
ILEs can definitely be shy. However I stand by Manson as IEI.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
When he was young he was overprotected by his mother(a bit of a loony too) and during his teenage year he used to spit on her and beat her as well as have a lot of emotional fits at her when his father was suspecting her of cheating.
His defined his youth by hatred of his parents and of the world.
Also he does a not ofdevaluing things like throw vomit at each other and sucked a NIN member's cock on stage.
This is in his book. I don't really see him as ILE, but type him whatever you want.
http://books.google.com/books?id=C27...page&q&f=false
Homo emo ILE it is - almost sounded like I'm calling him Beta.Originally Posted by hkkmr
ENFJ(?)
I'd say EIE-Ni (ENFj-INTp?). His stage presence is extremely strong, he knows how to entertain... Regarding Amanda Palmer I'm inclined to think she's SLE (which is what The Ineffable typed her in the past anyway). Some Beta NF's (especially Ni-ENFj which is Evolutionary/Process and may have smoother movements compared to Involutionary/Result types, and Constructivist, etc.) may seem quite passive, self-contained/self-controlled, detached/distant, etc. in interviews, videos, etc. Contrast that with SLE's like Courtney Love, Amanda Palmer, etc. who are more overt and physically powerful in their communication with the camera (and probably more physically involved/there/present speaking in interviews, etc.) . . . Nevertheless, Marilyn Manson on stage probably looks quite different than he does in his videos... I've seen him in concert once -- he's a very dynamic performer. Marilyn Manson has a more interesting stage presence than Shirley Manson (who I've also seen live/in concert once) in that respect. Shirley Manson has a better voice, Marilyn Manson has a more dynamic/'entertaining' stage presence/persona.
Here are two of Marilyn Manson's best songs:
"The ants are in the sugar/The muscles atrophied/We're on the other side, the screen is us and we're TV. . . . Are all your infants in abortion cribs/I was born into this/Everything turns to shit/The boy that you loved is the man that you fear/Pray until your number/Asleep from all your pain/Your apple has been rotting/Tomorrow's turned up dead/I have it all and I have no choice but to/I'll make everyone pay and you will see/You can kill yourself now/Because you're dead in my mind/The boy that you loved is the monster you fear/Peel off all those eyes/Crawl into the dark/You've poisoned all your children to camouflage your scars/Pray unto the splinters, pray unto your fear/Pray your life was just a dream/The cut that never heals/Pray now baby, pray your life was just a dream/(I am so tangled in my sins that I cannot escape)/Pinch the head off, collapse me like a weed/Someone had to go this far/I was born into this/Everything turns to shit/The boy that you loved is the man that you fear/Peel off all those eyes and crawl into the dark/You poison all your children to camouflage your scars/Pray unto the splinters, pray unto your fear/Pray your life was just a dream/The cut that never heals/Pray now baby, pray your life was just a dream/The world in my hands, there's no one left to hear you scream/There's no one left for you/When all of your wishes are granted, many of your dreams will be destroyed"
" . . . . I am so all-American, I'll sell you suicide/I am totalitarian, I've got abortions in my eyes/I hate the hater, I'd rape the raper/I am the animal who will not be himself . . . . Hey victim, should I black your eyes again?/Hey victim, you were the one who put the stick in my hand/I am the ism, my hate's a prism/Let's just kill everyone and let your god sort them out . . . . Everybody's someone else's hero, I know I'm only my own/I wasn't born with enough manly virtues/I don't need to choose a side/I better, better, better, better not say this/better, better, better, better not tell . . . . I hate the hater, I'd rape the raper/I am The Idiot who will not be himself . . . . America cannot see anything/History was written by the winner . . . . Everybody's someone else's hero/I know I'm only my own/I wasn't born with enough manly virtues/I don't need to choose a side"
Oh, and Christgau, how could I forget:
http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_a...Marilyn+Manson
'Smells Like Children [Nothing/Interscope, 1995]
Unmitigated consumer fraud--a mess of instrumentals, covers, and remixes designed to exploit its well-publicized tour, genderfuck cover art, titillating titles, and parental warning label. The lyrics to "S****y Chicken Gang Bang" are nonexistent, those to "Everlasting C***sucker" incomprehensible. Only "F*** Frankie," a spoken-word number in which a female feigning sexual ecstasy reveals that it isn't "Fool Frankie" or "Fire Frankie" or "Fast Frankie" or for that matter "Fist Frankie," delivers what it promises. It's easily the best thing on the record. D+
Mechanical Animals [Nothing, 1998]
If only the absurd aura of artistic respectability surrounding this arrant self-promoter would teach us that not every icon deserves a think piece, that it's no big deal to have a higher IQ than Ozzy Osbourne, that the Road of Excess leads to the Palace Theater. Instead, his banned-in-Wal-Mart slipcase job will fade into the haze of records people found interesting at the time. Its strategy is to camouflage the feebleness of La Manson's vocal affect by pretending it's deliberate--one more depersonalizing production device with which to flatten willing cerebella whilst confronting humankind's alienation, amorality, and failure to have a good time on Saturday night. Catchiest songs: "The Dope Show" and "I Don't Like the Drugs (But the Drugs Like Me)." Duh. C+'
Last edited by HERO; 09-05-2012 at 11:52 AM.
It's going to change soon and I think I know what the next consensus is going to be. Anyhow, seems like a good candidate for alpha, beta and gamma...
Last edited by Absurd; 09-05-2012 at 11:57 AM.
Well I wouldn't completely rule out ILE or IEI for him, yet I think EIE makes the most sense. There's kind of that awkward, odd, 'semi-autistic' Napoleon Dynamite element that some EIE (and Beta NF) males have. And I've known ILE's in real life -- one was a Math teacher, another an English teacher, and another a boy I knew when I was at the psychiatric rehab in 2004 (I think he was diagnosed with Asperger's and OCD -- in my opinion many types can get diagnosed with Asperger's for example, including ILE and EIE). . . . ILE's often strike me as more rigid and conservative in ways . . . they usually don't employ the 'art ******ry' and rebelliousness and disorderly conduct, etc. that Beta NF's like Marilyn Manson do (and/or have done). At least not to his extreme. ILE's can be kind of annoying, they can judge other people, actively or 'forcefully' try to get them to stay in school or in a class (yet in a Judicious way, they don't go past a certain limit) . . . you can tell they're not Se-ego but Se-role. They often don't really (deeply/genuinely) understand or relate to suicidal or depressed or 'mentally ill' or mental troubled/disturbed/crazy people. Even the ILE guy I knew at the 'adolescent' psychiatric rehab or whatever wasn't very understanding of other people's issues. Like there was a girl who tried to kill herself . . . he was kind of freaked out about something he heard about her cutting herself or something, or having a knife. [They can sometimes talk about these things in a somewhat insensitive manner, but not offensive.] And then there was the other girl who cut herself and was kind of wild (she was Se-ESTp; don't forget Brody Dalle also self-mutilated) . . . he wasn't very understanding regarding the orange-haired girl's behavior either, although I liked her for the most part.
So ILE's are often pretty smart, yet they usually don't like to play the kind of role Marilyn Manson has played. There are actually many Beta NF males that sort of embody a Puer Aeternus archetype. From my experience with ILE's though, they're quite mature in a way even from an early age. There might be a certain 'child-like quality' to them, but it's really different from what people are seeing in Marilyn Manson, I think. (Marilyn Manson has behaved in an adolescent world-weary rebellious experimental unpredictable fashion as opposed to the more innocent 'harmless' logical [and/or LESS angsty/griping/complaining/bitchy] Alpha Infantile style). ILE's can question society, etc., they're usually not (too) prejudiced or closed-minded . . . but sometimes I find them (in real life) to be kind of annoying and rigid... and they're often not very understanding and can kind of put you down in a way... Although they are in no way as mean and cold as some SLE's (and Betas) can be at times. [I don't really hear this marked 'insensitivity' in Marilyn Manson's music that much -- one would have to listen to a lot of his music to understand him better, though (especially Holywood and Antichrist Superstar)]. Yet there were times when my ILE English teacher really liked my writing.
Anyway, I've never seen any Marilyn Manson(esque) qualities in any of the ILE's I've known. Marilyn Manson is smart; he might even be very good with Math (and/or computers). I don't know. I'm just not convinced that ILE is right for him. It's not a bad typing though. It seems convincing enough in its own right. Maybe I just haven't met any musically/artistically inclined ILE's. Either way I've never known an ILE who dressed up like Marilyn Manson and fooled people into thinking he's a 'fag' when at the most he's probably just hetero-flexible or something. His father was somewhat physically abusive and neglectful at times, and he didn't have a brother or anything. I think Marilyn Manson once said that Trent Reznor was like the brother he never had (regarding their past friendship). From what I've read though, I think Trent Reznor got Marilyn Manson addicted to heroin in the past.
Sergei Moshenkov and Wing Tung Tang M. Sc., MBTI and Socionics: Legacy of Dr. Carl Jung (Lexington: USA, 2010/2011), 92 [ILE (The Engineer)]:
"Ni - The ENTP is not an imaginative individual. It's hard for them to be artistically creative. Their intuition only shows in solving real world problems. They have a poor judgment of time, often coming late to meetings, and poor forecasting skills. But more notably the ENTP lives solely in reality with no inner world of their own."
- Ekaterina Filatova, Understanding The People Around You: An Introduction To Socionics (Hollister: MSI Press, 2006)
regarding the EIE: "For Performers, a somewhat irresolute lower face and flaccid, sometimes capricious mouth is characteristic. The narrowest, most <aristocratic> faces belong to Performers."
"Performers are people of very intense emotions. They easily become excited, and just as easily deflate. Everything, down to dismal weather, affects their mood. Such people easily fall into pessimism:
I always wake up in a bad mood.
Performers may spend the whole day in a gloomy mood and they love to be pitied . . . ."
http://www.socionics.com/prof/enfj.htm
"ENFjs often have slim arms, legs and torso. They look rather slow and relaxed, especially among friends."
"ENFjs always warn others about impending trouble. They often dramatise reality a little too much as they seem to see the world in shades of grey." [I'm pretty sure Gore Vidal was also ENFj.]
"ENFjs posses the ability to be great orators as they know how to paint speeches in many colours and how to keep the attention of the listener. Besides containing dramatic emotions, their speeches often contain sharp sarcasm and powerful bitterness. ENFjs know well how to combine humour with tragedy."
"ENFjs like to fantasize, often developing the same subject over a period of time. They also have the ability to persuade others that their opinions are right. Their completed projects are global in comparison to what they were when they were began. They also have a tendency to create problems where there are not any and moreover to convince others of it."
'ENFjs have no problems undertaking very difficult tasks and projects or working long unsociable hours. ENFjs strongly believe that human potential is unlimited. They often believe in a wide range of mystical phenomena, religion, the evil-eye and omens. They like to spend some time alone in order to contemplate life and the role of humans. "To be or not to be" is a question that ENFjs may ask themselves regularly.'
Once when my Aunt was angry with me in the past she contrasted my 'pure narcissistic ugliness' with Marilyn Manson's "anti-beauty". Anti-beauty sounds like Si-PoLR to me.
I love this song (definitely one of his best) [Antichrist Superstar was Marilyn Manson in his prime -- if you want to understand him (emotionally, etc.) you have to listen to that album]:
" '. . . . Tell me something beautiful/Tell me something free/Tell me something beautiful/And I wish that I could be.'/(When I got my wings and I never even knew it/When I was a worm, thought I couldn't get through it) . . . . The toys all smell like children/And the scab-knees will obey/I'll have to kneel on broomsticks/Just to make it go away . . . (Then I got my wings and I never even knew it/When I was a worm, thought I couldn't get through it)/Because today is black/Because there is no turning back/Because your lies have watered me/I have become the strongest weed . . . . This is what you should fear/You are what you should fear . . . ."
"A drink to make you numb/A game [machine] to make you dumb/A type to make you anybody else/But all the drugs in this world won't save her from herself . . . . Her mouth was an empty cut/And she was waiting to fall/Just bleeding like a polaroid/That lost all her dolls/You were from a perfect world/A world that threw me away today/Today to run away . . ."
Last edited by HERO; 09-06-2012 at 06:15 AM.
The only Marilyn Manson song that ever made me cry:
He's Ti-ENTp. Like Madonna's "Oh Father" and the live version of "Mother & Father", his songs can occasionally make you cry.
At least one of the only Eminem songs that ever made me cry:
They've both co-written songs that all Americans should be proud of.
ILE-Ti would be my guess, not very interested in his persona to write a lengthy argument for it.
Marilyn Manson
He should be challenging, right?!
Too ugly to VI.
Can you at least pin down his ego using VI - Se, Ne, Si, Ni?
Marilyn-Manson-marilyn-manson-29938043-908-1186.jpg
manson188.jpg
marilyn_manson_by_sandman_ac-d48pyk3.jpg
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I've seen him typed in the Beta NF family, and I'd definitely be inclined to see him as Se valuing, Beta > Gamma, and rational from what I've seen of him in interviews. EIE, I'd say.
NF is a definite! I agree 100% on that grouping.
But how is his ego not Ni?
So in the video above, on what level were Manson's complaints regarding President Clinton and bombing in Kosovo? Intrapersonal, interpersonal, or were they beyond that level? How was he dissatisfied with the events that occurred in Kosovo? At which level was the disconnect for Manson?
I'm intentionally play hard because Manson's complaints are very relevant to what's going on right now globally...
If President Clinton is IEE, then "Who" is Manson?!
I think you might have ego and base function mixed up. The ego block of an EIE has Fe as base function (the lens that the EIE views life from) and Ni as creative function (strong and used 'creatively' to deal with the world).
But honestly, I think getting political and 'speaking out' would be more a EIE thing than IEI. Rational + NF + Negativist. I haven't watched the video, nor do I have time to, but I have enough background knowledge of the guy to make a judgement call.
No no. I'm not mixing anything up. I already know "Who" Manson is, but intertype relationships within the video could just as easily tell you his type if those pictures don't give him away.
How about another video to create a continuum? Maybe you can watch it later?
You are mixing it up. EIE and IEI are both Ni ego.
No I'm not mixing anything up... I already know that IEI and EIE have the same ego, and Manson does not have Ni ego.
Manson's complaints about President Clinton are much more global than interpersonal, and the fact that he brings up Monica Lowinsky is just lagniappe for the taking!
(Argh, didn't mean to hit constructive on that post.) When you say,
it communicates that you believe Manson to beego and are asking why Narc is not of the same opinion. Hence the confusion.
Johari/Nohari
"Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."
Fruit, the fluffy kitty.
So if he's NF but not Ni ego (due to his weird and strange yet colorful behavior), then is he an Ne IEE or an Ne EII? His global complaints about President Clinton are good enough for me, but his complaint about Monica Lewinsky makes his type that much more obvious to me.
His weird and strange, yet colorful behavior makes him notSo if he's NF but not Ni ego (due to his weird and strange yet colorful behavior), then is he an Ne IEE or an Ne EII? His global complaints about President Clinton are good enough for me, but his complaint about Monica Lewinsky makes his type that much more obvious to me.+
in your estimation? It would be helpful for you to be more specific about what he has said and why you claim it fits Delta over Beta.
Johari/Nohari
"Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."
Fruit, the fluffy kitty.
I go Ni-EIE for the guy. I've got David Letterman as Te-SLI. Mix the two ingredients, and this is the result:
about as smooth as a brick rolling down the face of a cliff.
p . . . a . . . n . . . d . . . o . . . r . . . a
trad metalz | (more coming)
Being good at the guitar makes up for it.
Manson is EII
I'm pretty sure David Letterman is LII, and I'm almost positive Marilyn Manson is EII (I've always thought him to be classy and articulate, despite the getup)
I haven't tried to type Letterman and given him the attention he's due yet, but what you say about Manson is definitely in line with him being EII.
So basically, Manson is going to have a mirror relationship with President Clinton, which is exactly the same relationship that's going on globally with the other two giants that we're all familiar with and pay a lot of attention to right now. *wink wink*
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trad metalz | (more coming)
seriously though, I can't believe you think I'm EIE, it really proves how terrible you are at typing
just kidding, I can believe it, because you're bad at typing
I don't think Clinton is IEE
are you referring to Obama and Putin?
keep on shooting yourself in the feet, Chris-Chan
Exhibit A:
Exhibit B:
EIEs and IEEs are great overall, but you suck. If you're gonna go around retyping other people around here, then I ain't gonna hold my fire when it comes to your type, especially when you use it as an excuse to generally suck at life, indirectly shitting on every IEE ever in the process.
p . . . a . . . n . . . d . . . o . . . r . . . a
trad metalz | (more coming)
I'm not quite sure what your "Exhibits" are trying to prove
you don't know what EIE and IEE actually look like
"ain't gonna hold your fire"? lol, more like "ain't gonna hold your vomit", because that's how bad you are at typing
furthermore, you act like calling me EIE is this terrible thing that I should be angry about, but in reality I find it hilarious because it's so inaccurate; to me it just seems like a pathetic attempt at lashing out
I'll agree that I generally do suck at life; typing is about the only thing I'm good at
the neverending tale of Chris-Chan and the crack-filled wig powder
Good.
Thank you for Exhibit C.
And Exhibit D.
And Exhibit E.
When all the chips are down, the main lens through which you view the world is through temporal emotive states. Fe Base. I didn't "call" you EIE, it was a typing I leaned towards heavily since your appearance on TinyChat, which was a gut-level thing that happened due mostly to me finding you to be mainly reminiscent of Jadae, Pewdiepie of YouTube fame, and Gummibearz, all of whom I have at Fe-EIE. What you said about people close to you mocking you due to a certain emotional vibrancy is indicative of a Beta versus Delta divide, but you got the quadras wrong when you laid the typings down, just as you did when you typed Maritsa, Anndelise, Kim, and Absurd into Beta, and Steve Jobs, and now Marilyn Manson, into Delta. Your inevitable rejection of this rationale, however you should choose to reject it, will be filed under Exhibit F. Guess what the "F" stands for.
p . . . a . . . n . . . d . . . o . . . r . . . a
trad metalz | (more coming)
1. where the fuck are you getting this from?
2. aren't ESE and EIE both constructivists, and aren't SEE and IEE both emotivists?
so basically, Jadae, Pewdiepie, and Gummibearz must all be Delta; either that or they're something else entirely, because, again, you're bad at typing
okay, I just watched this video of Pewdiepie; I can't believe you actually think I'm *like* him, you really have no grasp whatsoever of "personal qualities"
I'll agree that Fe/Ti is generally more emotional than Fi/Te, but when did I claim to be "emotionally vibrant"? I would say it's quite the opposite: I've been called a "robot" and a "buzzkill", I've been told I need to "let up" and to "not be so uptight", and I've been told that I "don't show emotion" and that I "don't open up to other people".
Maritsa = IEI
anndelise = LII
Kim = SLE
Absurd = ILI (? still not sure about him)
Steve Jobs = EII
Marilyn Manson = EII (? still a little unsure about him; Beta NF actuallydoes seem like a possibility, well done!)
"fail", as in "your case fails"
seriously though, I have an idea: you live in northern Ohio and I live in western Michigan. We should meet up. I don't actually hate you; you still make me laugh quite frequently, even when you're mocking me. I just want to show you what I see, and it's difficult for me to do that via this forum.
Manson is EII
You said it, not me!
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