Marilyn Manson

[Creepy-female]

I once had the realization when I was high that Manson is an overgrown child rolling around in blood and making scary clown faces at random. I see ENTp more than anything else.

[717495]

Yes he's ENTp, people just don't know enough difference between Beta NFs to base anything else but a stereotype on.

"Devil's advocate with clown makeup. So dramatic, Beta omg. Not scientific enuf for ILE."

[ashlesha]

Yes he's ENTp, people just don't know enough difference between Beta NFs to base anything else but a stereotype on.

"Devil's advocate with clown makeup. Not scientific enuf, so dramatic Beta omg."

its one of my pet peeves when people criticize arguments that they just made up themselves.

"ashton says he's alpha. entp omg."

isn't that annoying? i suggest you not pull it on other people.

[717495]

In an attempt to be different, Kassie is going against some distinguished perspectives of her peers and joining the majority.

[ashlesha]

In an attempt to be different, Kassie is going against some distinguished perspectives of her peers and joining the majority.

i don't even know if you're talking about my opinion about manson or my irritation with your post but i guess either way you're spot on since you're reading my subconscious or whatever.

[Absurd]

Haha, I laugh wnever I hear about him. I mean there was a guy and a huge bonfire who said "play Marylin Manson" and I would "haha."

[mfckr]

its one of my pet peeves when people criticize arguments that they just made up themselves.

"ashton says he's alpha. entp omg."

isn't that annoying? i suggest you not pull it on other people.

C'mon, don't drag my name into other people's arguments plz lol

a lot of people seem to think entp, i don't like that.

Why?

[717495]

i don't even know if you're talking about my opinion about manson or my irritation with your post but i guess either way you're spot on since you're reading my subconscious or whatever.

I don't know why everything has to be argument this or argument that, as if there is something to be gained by forcing your thoughts to sound appropriate so other people will believe you, as though it's some kind of a tournament with a winner. I haven't even made an argument so no need to act pretentious. I'm stating the truth. I don't care if someone argues the same thing for another type, they would simply be wrong.

[ashlesha]

Why?

for no other reason than that i like him and think he makes a ton of sense in interviews. if i had an actual reason i would have shared it. i'm not into the whole scary clown face aesthetic myself and his music is just ok but the way he explains his perspectives kinda resonates.

[ashlesha]

I don't know why everything has to be argument this or argument that, as if there is something to be gained by forcing your thoughts to sound appropriate so other people will believe you. I haven't even made an argument so no need to act pretentious. I'm stating the truth. I don't care if someone argues the same thing for another type, they would simply be wrong.

putting something in quotes that was never actually said is very obviously the exact opposite of "stating the truth."

[woofwoofl]

I once had the realization when I was high that Manson is an overgrown child rolling around in blood and making scary clown faces at random. I see ENTp more than anything else.

Was it around the time of Golden Age of Grotesque? It all hit me, in the middle of that album, that the stuff was more constructed than felt, it's mentally playful like a shit ton with the double entendres and wordplay, the music is more still than propulsive or building, and there's that certain thing with outside objects being parts of groupings that had nothing to do with their physical build (some of you caught me in the chatbox going on about the Si-SLI girl and her idea of what constitutes a "restaurant" being entirely separate from what its physical makeup happens to be, that it magically makes food of its own volition by being part of a "restaurant") that I spot him doing...


We're a death-marching band
Peter Pan off the wagon
Entertain but never trust anyone sober.
We're tasteless but taste good
My (S)top Hat's top hat(ed)
Unsafe cheerleaders with
Porn poms and pipe bombs

I won't do it with you
I'll do it to you
I hope this hook gets caught in your mouth
I won't do it with you
I'll do it you
Don't say no
Just say now

I like a big car, cause
I'm a big star
I make a big rock and roll hit
I'd like to love you
but my heart is a sore
I am, I am, I am so yours
Ka-boom, ka-boom
Ka-boom, ka-boom
Ka-boom, ka-boom
I'd like to la la la la love you
Ka-boom, ka-boom
Ka-boom, ka-boom
Ka-boom, ka-boom
I'd like to la la la la love you

I'm the leader of the club
And I've shrugged off my mouse ears
We fly No-Class Dumbo jets
And drive hardcore-vettes
We fight war with drugs
And our sex always formal
We wear lawsuits when
We get high high high

I won't do it with you
I'll do it to you
I hope this hook gets caught in your mouth
I won't do it with you
I'll do it you
Don't say no
Just say now

I like a big car, cause
I'm a big star
I make a big rock and roll hit
I'd like to love you
but my heart is a sore
I am, I am, I am so yours
Ka-boom, ka-boom
Ka-boom, ka-boom
Ka-boom, ka-boom
I'd like to la la la la love you
Ka-boom, ka-boom
Ka-boom, ka-boom
Ka-boom, ka-boom
I'd like to la la la la love you

"Inhale, exhale, let's all hail"
It's a depraved new world
"Inhale, exhale, let's all hail"
It's a depraved new world
After all

I like a big car, cause
I'm a big star
I make a big rock and roll hit
I'd like to love you
but my heart is a sore
I am, I am, I am so yours
I am a big car and
I'm a strip bar
You call it fake,
I call it, "good as it gets."
Nothing in this world is for real
Except you are for me and
I am so yours
Ka-boom ka-boom


I'll pretend that I want you
For what is on the inside
But when I get inside,
I'll just want to get out
I'm your first and last deposit
Through sickness and in hell
I'll never promise you a garden
You'll just water me down
I can't believe that you are for real
But I don't care as long as you're mine

When I said we
you know I meant me and
When I said sweet
I meant dirty (hey, hey)
When I said we
you know I meant me and
When I said sweet
I meant dirty (hey, hey)

I'm unsafe, I'm unsafe
I won't repent and so
I memorize the words to the porno movies
It's the only thing I want to believe
I memorize the words to the porno movies
This is a new religion to me

I'm a VCR funeral of
Dead-memory waste and
My smile is a chainlink fence
that I have put up
I love the enemy, my love is thee enemy
They say they don't want fame
But they get famous
When we fuck

When I said we
you know I meant me and
When I said sweet
I meant dirty (hey, hey)
When I said we
you know I meant me and
When I said sweet
I meant dirty (hey, hey)

I'm unsafe, I'm unsafe
I won't repent and so
I memorize the words to the porno movies
It's the only thing I want to believe
I memorize the words to the porno movies
This is a new religion to me

I never believed the devil was real
But god couldn't make someone filthy as you

When I said we
you know I meant me and
When I said sweet
I meant dirty (hey, hey)
When I said we
you know I meant me and
When I said sweet
I meant dirty (hey, hey)
When I said we
you know I meant me and
When I said sweet
I meant dirty (hey, hey)
When I said we
you know I meant me and
When I said sweet
I meant dirty (hey, hey)

You are the church
I am the steeple,
When we fuck
We're all god's people
You are the church
I am the steeple,
When we fuck
We're all god's people

[717495]

putting something in quotes that was never actually said is very obviously the exact opposite of "stating the truth."

I've seen users say the exact sort of thing, a reactive typing approach on this forum. Not a direct quote by anyone in particular.

[mfckr]

for no other reason than that i like him and think he makes a ton of sense in interviews. if i had an actual reason i would have shared it. i'm not into the whole scary clown face aesthetic myself and his music is just ok but the way he explains his perspectives kinda resonates.

If you like the things someone has to say, why let something like type get in the way of that?

I thought he made good sense in the interview too and found myself agreeing with him. His conversation style also struck me as fairly analytical and NT-like, along with him coming off like a Static type… so ILE seems pretty reasonable to me.

[The Ineffable]

I once had the realization when I was high that Manson is an overgrown child rolling around in blood and making scary clown faces at random. I see ENTp more than anything else.

Can you point us to at least one instance in the theory of Socionics where this is how ILE is described, at least hinted? In my knowledge, the closest to what you describe is Beta NF. ILEs are described as pensive, curious into how things work, rational, geek-ish, airy, logical or at least analytical. Their humor, from what I know, is either witty, satirical (or something close to these) or unintentional (lack of attention - but not defiant! - to social customs, taboos, etc). What you describe is unfamiliar, the only thing I recognize is the idea of appearing childish, but which you misinterpret, overlooking at which aspects of the personality of this type it refers to, making correlations unintended by those descriptions.

But I'm just disagreeing with that reasoning, I'm not saying MM cannot be ILE, in fact that's my second option for him after EIE, but for different reasons. Ashton makes a good point IMO; MM in interviews is tracking down the reasons for everything, including his motives, he seems to have a detailed hypothesis for everything [1] that occurs to him, to society, to things.
---

[1] - from an Beta NF I don't expect to come with such concrete cause-effect conclusions, but more with mottoes and rules of thumb.

[Ryan]

Beta NF, EIE > IEI.

I'm not a fan, but the interview was actually pretty good. It brought up a side of him that I have never seen before.

[Absurd]

gamma>beta

Obviously Gamma.

[Creepy-female]

Can you point us to at least one instance in the theory of Socionics where this is how ILE is described, at least hinted?

I'm not sure you can apply these generalizations hyper-literally across the board, but I feel some aspects of them do work.

Childlike Types: ENTp, INTj

These types seem to exist outside their own sexuality. Sex is to be metabolized psychologically for them in an almost roundabout way - as an emotional entity, or possibly even an intellectual exercise. In a partner, they are looking for someone who will deal with (and protect) their quirks and understand their sexuality on the same intellectual/emotional level.

(http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...e-descriptions)

Stages of life metaphor

Often the quadras are linked, in order, with four general stages of life:
Alpha - childhood
Beta - adolescence
Gamma - adulthood
Delta - old age

This metaphor describes the quadras at a more general level than value dichotomies. In particular group behavior very often follows the pattern: the curiosity and frivolousness of Alphas, the iconoclastic tendencies of Betas, the industry and conservatism of Gammas, and the balanced and detached pragmatism of Deltas.

(http://www.socionics.us/wikisocion/Q...#Quadra_values)

In my knowledge, the closest to what you describe is Beta NF. ILEs are described as pensive, curious into how things work, rational, geek-ish, airy, logical or at least analytical. Their humor, from what I know, is either witty, satirical (or something close to these) or unintentional (lack of attention - but not defiant! - to social customs, taboos, etc).

When I say "overgrown child rolling around in blood and making scary clown faces at random" I mean to communicate something of his gestalt as a person. Manson seems to fit most of those attributes you describe. I don't see how my description paints him as defiant. I see an exploratory, process orientated bent to his work rather than the perhaps more pointed agenda I see with Beta NFs, thus the child rather than adolescent way of relating works better to me. I get a rather sensory bent to his work that I associate with Si.

Compare this video of his work:



to Amanda Palmer, an ENFj:



The energy is more apparent if you watch them both with the sound off. They've both got the pancake makeup, the glitzy costumes, and the same microphone, but their bearing seems quite different. Amanda is going to incite the party goers into a coup if they don't pass out in a frenzy first - she's got a pointed, devious quality to her. Manson is making love to his Lolita and rolling around in her blood in a way that I can only describe as soft. He is airy compared to Amanda, and pensive, almost sensuous.

What you describe is unfamiliar, the only thing I recognize is the idea of appearing childish, but which you misinterpret, overlooking at which aspects of the personality of this type it refers to, making correlations unintended by those descriptions.

I don't feel you're interpreting what I said in the way I meant it. You're criticizing your own projections, which may be an exercise in futility.

[Absurd]

some gammas can be pretty emo ime. his gf seems esi too. failing that, beta.
ps: are you serious? can't always tell lol
pps: i'm not interested in manson tho, so wouldn't be surprised if i were wrong.

Yes, of course. There was a guy I once knew who looked like Sideshow Bob from The Simpsons and every one called him unconscious for he was slow like shit and a druggie. So once upon a time when me and some people in number of at least ten were having a barbecue near the river this guy wakes up, regains consciousness and in his turtle slow mumbling voice says, "hey, man, put on Marilyn Manson". I thought I'm going to die laughing.

Guess what his type is.

[Gilly]

I'm not sure you can apply these generalizations hyper-literally across the board, but I feel some aspects of them do work.



(http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...e-descriptions)



(http://www.socionics.us/wikisocion/Q...#Quadra_values)



When I say "overgrown child rolling around in blood and making scary clown faces at random" I mean to communicate something of his gestalt as a person. Manson seems to fit most of those attributes you describe. I don't see how my description paints him as defiant. I see an exploratory, process orientated bent to his work rather than the perhaps more pointed agenda I see with Beta NFs, thus the child rather than adolescent way of relating works better to me. I get a rather sensory bent to his work that I associate with Si.

Compare this video of his work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvf1DMDTosk

to Amanda Palmer, an ENFj:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i62UF7uROGU

The energy is more apparent if you watch them both with the sound off. They've both got the pancake makeup, the glitzy costumes, and the same microphone, but their bearing seems quite different. Amanda is going to incite the party goers into a coup if they don't pass out in a frenzy first - she's got a pointed, devious quality to her. Manson is making love to his Lolita and rolling around in her blood in a way that I can only describe as soft. He is airy compared to Amanda, and pensive, almost sensuous.


I don't feel you're interpreting what I said in the way I meant it. You're criticizing your own projections, which may be an exercise in futility.

Ok I mean, at least make fair comparisons, yo...love song vs. song about how demoralizing western society is? How about Manson's version of Leeds:



Pretty riotous music, there...that's the real Manson, the old Manson, in the stage of his career which would be comparable to Palmer's when she did Leeds.

Also, if you want to see "soft..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UYEZnhnVCg

As far as quadra "ages" go, I think on the whole Manson and Palmer both exemplify emotions in their music, and aesthetics and methods of self-presentation most heavily attached to adolescence and, in general, the Beta quadra.

[strrrng]

I'm not set on him as IEI, and while dolphin's impression resonates, I feel something similar could be said of em, who I am, i.e. a frenzied bully victim tossing emotional barbs around to see how precisely he can spurt blood. it may relate to more fundamental fixations that can distort type (christian upbringing...), expressed in your typing Gilly SLE. catholic school made me more demonic, but the case isn't always so simple with 3s. all in all, initially viewing the interviews had me leaning ILE, because I've never seen beta NFs exhibit such neutral composure when it concerns socio-culture commentary; but at the same time, I don't see how his archetypal role and thematic focus can be said to exemplify an alpha transition in pop rock/metal music, when he was pretty much the morrison of our generation.

[Gilly]

Yeah there is something about his composure that doesn't exactly scream Fe ego, but he does seem rather deliberate, if a bit lazy, in his self-presentation. Alpha metal tends to have more of a generally open bitterness towards society and serve the role of catharsis while maintaining some level of musical/technical sophistication, but Manson just kind of shits it all out there, and tends to rage on society implicitly during his personal rants, which is similar to Palmer, and is rather poetic and metaphorical, rather than just being overt and literal about extolling his grievances.

[Creepy-female]

Ok I mean, at least make fair comparisons, yo...love song vs. song about how demoralizing western society is? How about Manson's version of Leeds:

Pretty riotous music, there...that's the real Manson, the old Manson, in the stage of his career which would be comparable to Palmer's when she did Leeds.

Also, if you want to see "soft..."

It's not the act of inciting a riot, it's the energy behind it. That's why I said, watch it without sound, it becomes more apparent. Manson is more laconic, more removed, more attuned to the flow of the environment that's heralding his demise - Amanda's energy is more instigative, regardless.

It's not about love songs, and if you want to project your own ideas onto my argument, I suggest you convene with Effy.

As far as quadra "ages" go, I think on the whole Manson and Palmer both exemplify emotions in their music, and aesthetics and methods of self-presentation most heavily attached to adolescence and, in general, the Beta quadra.

I don't mind seeing them both as 3s, but they def don't read as the same quadra to me.

[Gilly]

Project what ideas? I was just saying that it makes more sense to compare their "vibes" in similar songs.

[Gilly]

Oh and,I dunno what it is, but these EIEs just can't seem to get enough of me...

[Creepy-female]

Project what ideas? I was just saying that it makes more sense to compare their "vibes" in similar songs.

Manson has the same energy in both videos, and so does Palmer; I wasn't saying Manson = soft cuz love song.

I dunno what it is, but EIEs just can't seem to get enough of me...

Maybe cause you're Ti up the wazoo, or maybe just because you're a pretty awesome human being. Please don't tell me Socionics is the reason for your coolness factor, eye roll. Some Alphas are my favorite people. And that's a really cute pic.

[Gilly]

I dunno, I agree his energy is the same in both, but its kind of...exaggerating it to compare a video where he's being all gooshy, to one where she is being all in-yo-FACE

[Absurd]

Monsoon.

[Gilly]

we get it, gilligan. you're *it*, in a good way.or sth
ps: more pics, pls

Heheheh. That's all I have with her.

That's Amanda Palmer, by the way, in case you were confused about the relevance.

[Creepy-female]

I dunno, I agree his energy is the same in both, but its kind of...exaggerating it to compare a video where he's being all gooshy, to one where she is being all in-yo-FACE

Not really. She's just standing in one place singing the entire time, and she manages to look more like an ENFj than Manson's entire Dope Show.

I posted the Heart Shaped Glasses vid in the first place because that was the vid I mentioned in my first post in this thread. The rolling around in blood scene was my "aha" moment. Take it for what you will.

[The Ineffable]

doplhin, I saw what you did there, but coming with good intentions you were as cute as mune and any other LSE out there. It's decided, we agree he might be ILE.

[Gilly]

Well yeah, she does...I don't think Manson is EIE...

I understand why you used that video now, though.

[Absurd]

lol i dunno. never typed sideshow bob either...honestly the whole goth thing never interested me and i know so little of this manson dude i should have just stayed out this discussion.

Neither did I.

As for Marilyn Manson, he joined something he thought is genuine at the beginning but it wasn't.

[NewBorn STAR]

the video dolphin posted seemed alphaish to me.

[World Socionics]

He describes himself in the interview as 'actually being a rather shy person who uses the music to express himself' - seems pretty IEI to me.

I'd agree that he's Ti valuing over Fi, as shown in the interview where he logically explains his 'shocking' Fe methods, however I would not say that his response is a particularly strong usage of Ti.

The guy also reeks of Beta with his whole appearance (along with grotesque sexuality) seeming a great example of the abandonment of Si for valued Ni and Fe.

I once had the realization when I was high that Manson is an overgrown child rolling around in blood and making scary clown faces at random. I see ENTp more than anything else.

As an ILE and thus Si suggestive, I would not feel comfortable making myself look this way. There is a subtle difference between the disturbing 'Victim-esque' appearance of someone like Marilyn MansonManson.jpg and the wacky but sinister 'Infantile' appearance of the Joker for instance 250px-Manwholaughs.jpg. The latter of which I find to be a rather appealing look.

[717495]

The guy also reeks of Beta with his whole appearance (along with grotesque sexuality) seeming a great example of the abandonment of Si for valued Ni and Fe.

Lmao. This forum is still going to be great, I'm crossing my fingers.

[Gilly]

Lmao. This forum is still going to be great, I'm crossing my fingers.

Oh Poli...

[golden]

@echidna1000, ime ILEs can be pretty shy. I'm not saying Manson is ILE--I'm not sure what I think his type is. I will say I have a whole group of rocker-type people in my past whom I type predominantly as Alphas, and they were more, um, indulgent in dark stuff than I ever have been. It was like they really needed to explore lurid and dark and violent imagery, whereas for me it was more like my internal landscape is already a bit full of that and I want to leave it behind or at least quell it.

All of that may just be a socionics-induced fantasy on my part. But it's at least sort of true.

[World Socionics]

@echidna1000, ime ILEs can be pretty shy. I'm not saying Manson is ILE--I'm not sure what I think his type is. I will say I have a whole group of rocker-type people in my past whom I type predominantly as Alphas, and they were more, um, indulgent in dark stuff than I ever have been. It was like they really needed to explore lurid and dark and violent imagery, whereas for me it was more like my internal landscape is already a bit full of that and I want to leave it behind or at least quell it.

All of that may just be a socionics-induced fantasy on my part. But it's at least sort of true.

Shy? or socially awkward?

[golden]

Shy? or socially awkward?

Both, depends on the person. But what I am saying is that I don't think the typing of ILE means a person cannot be shy or label himself that way.

[World Socionics]

Both, depends on the person. But what I am saying is that I don't think the typing of ILE means a person cannot be shy or label himself that way.

That is true.