ENTps in games and anime

[tcaudilllg]

This shouldn't be hard. If ESFJs are the rarest figures in Japanese culture, ENTPs and ENFJs are the most common. (though INTJs do seem to feature in every episode of every anime!)

First up, I believe Garnet Til Alexandros of FF9 to be an ENTP. (the other option is INTJ, but I'm really not seeing it)

[CloudCuckooLander]

I think Garnet was IEI, with her relationship with Zidane being IEI-SLE duality - she was essentially an Aeris (IEI) or a more subdued Rinoa, Rinoa and Squall being EIE-LSI duality.

A better example of an ILE in anime is Konata Izumi from Lucky Star. In video games, I think Lucca from Chrono Trigger fits quite nicely.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

Urahara Kisuke from Bleach
Merciful Goddess from Saiyuki (mostly a guess)

[CloudCuckooLander]

Urahara Kisuke from Bleach

Oh yes, Kisuke is a brilliant example of an ILE. Kudos for that pick.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

Thankee.
------------

Yutaka Watari from Descendants of Darkness (possibly)

[tcaudilllg]

I totally disagree about Zidane being SLE. He's way too light hearted to be a T.

Agree about Lucca. C subtype, yes?

Or would you say a D?

Bird Studio style is not effective for VI purposes. So instead...


http://kagerostudios.b1.jcink.com/in...=0&#entry76648

[CloudCuckooLander]

I totally disagree about Zidane being SLE. He's way too light hearted to be a T.

Agree about Lucca. C subtype, yes?

Or would you say a D?

Bird Studio style is not effective for VI purposes. So instead...


http://kagerostudios.b1.jcink.com/in...=0&#entry76648

He has Fe. SLEs have Fe-HA, and it can be quite apparent. If he's not SLE, he's probably an EIE with an entirely too strong Se-HA. I therefore think SLE fits him better.

I'd say VIing animated characters doesn't exactly work, but based on how she's written I'd say she's C-ILE. ILE-Ne in Gulenko's IE subtypes.

[tcaudilllg]

On the matter of VI, it appears we have a difference of opinion. Let us agree to disagree.

Cid Kramer, FFVIII


Harmonizer, I suspect.

L'Arachel, Fire Emblem 8


Of all the types, I think ENTps are the easiest to distinguish. They always have that peculiar mix of ice cold logic and extraverted gregariousness.

[717495]

Of all the types, I think ENTps are the easiest to distinguish. They always have that peculiar mix of ice cold logic and extraverted gregariousness.

Oooh yea.

[tcaudilllg]

Arche from Tales of Phantasia



She's definitely got that crazy Augusta thing going...

Someone that... wacky can only be an ILE-C.

Hey BG -- try to get a handle on THAT one!

[CloudCuckooLander]

Two more ILEs, basically the same character in two separate circumstances:

Radical Edward Wong Hau Pepulu Tivruskii IV (I love that name) from Cowboy Bebop, and Kaolla Su from Love Hina.

[tcaudilllg]

Yeah I was thinking of Edward.

But either of them are too young to be decent VI. And their features are rather indistinct.

[tcaudilllg]

An Einstein clone for the ILE-D department (he is not a C!).

...Wily looks like Einstein. Let's just leave it at that.

[tcaudilllg]

I think Garnet was IEI, with her relationship with Zidane being IEI-SLE duality - she was essentially an Aeris (IEI) or a more subdued Rinoa, Rinoa and Squall being EIE-LSI duality.

You're wrong about Squall and Rinoa. Rinoa is certifiably ESE -- the uneven lip, let alone the damn enjoyment factor, are absolute ESE indicators. Squall is LSE... it's been debated on these forums to death: a "workaholic SeeD." Workaholic = LSE.

[CloudCuckooLander]

You're wrong about Squall and Rinoa. Rinoa is certifiably ESE -- the uneven lip, let alone the damn enjoyment factor, are absolute ESE indicators. Squall is LSE... it's been debated on these forums to death: a "workaholic SeeD." Workaholic = LSE.

EIEs have just as much Fe as ESEs, explaining the "enjoyment factor." She also seems to have Se-HA, showing occasional signs of demand for immediate action which she usually gets by pressuring Squall in a manner common of EIEs.

Squall is nowhere near mobile or energetic enough for EJ temperament - he's practically an IJ stereotype, calm and mellow but internally strained and conflicted. He's likewise an introverted stereotype - he's nigh-mute, and seems to get no enjoyment out of any sort of social interaction. He also seems to display Se rather than Si, being prone to occasional impulsive bursts and mobilization of authority (which Rinoa seems attracted to, further pointing to EIE for her). As for LSIs not being nearly as much workaholics as LSEs, you evidently don't know very many LSIs.

[Aleksei]

Bah, he just thinks she's ESE because he wants to 'dualize' with her, if you know what I mean...

[CloudCuckooLander]

Bah, he just thinks she's ESE because he wants to 'dualize' with her, if you know what I mean...

Well, too bad for him. I claimed her when I was 10 or 11! My first, and thankfully only, video game crush.

[Creepy-male]

Zidane is ESE. His entire role in FFIX is as the cheerleader, raising everyone's spirits, being the indefatiguable voice of "Come on guys!" Back when I thought I was IEE, I was convinced he was my identical, but I don't see Mirror as being such a long shot (esp. when you consider idealised self vs. actual self; the former for me is definitely an ESE).

At least in the US localisation.

Anyway, I've heard another theory about Rinoa and Squall that they're IEE-SLI. Which particular intraquadra complementary pair is irrelevant. I think the characters are all so vague in contrast to the sharpness of their relationships in VIII and IX that every man and his dog wants to claim them for their quadra.

Speaking of which I had a dream where I could talk to my dog. Then he turned into a man. Then back into a dog. It was weird.

[DividedsGhost]

Anyway, I've heard another theory about Rinoa and Squall that they're IEE-SLI.

I agree.

[tcaudilllg]

Although he made a valid observation about LeLouch, at this point Cuckoo is just trolling. I don't know what Aleksei said, but he's a nazi so who cares?

As usual Gul offers a superior analysis. I agree with him that most of the characters in FFVIII are pretty vague; however, scenario writers make it a priority to develop characters by giving each of them defining crises which reveal the traits stipulated by their designers.

What all these characters have in common, is that they break through simple stereotypes. The aim of ESE is to "break through the mask" created by beta NF, and to reveal the person within.

It is not correct to say that ESE is the last to fight and the first to make peace... that is not their role. Their role is to reveal who is trying to do the world right... and who is just out to make trouble.

Anyway...

Kisuke Urahara

[CloudCuckooLander]

I do not appreciate the accusation of "trolling." It's quite insulting.

As for Rinoa and Squall, I see entirely too much Fe in Rinoa for IEE (plus no Ne to speak of), and entirely too much Se in her for either IEE or ESE. In Squall, I see entirely too much Se and Ti and entirely too little Si and Te for SLI.

As for Zidane - same deal. An SLE can raise the emotional mood - ESEs being the only ones able to do that is a silly and ridiculous stereotype. I see Fe and Se in Zidane - I see too little Si.

[tcaudilllg]

Vaan







He's clearly a D.

[tcaudilllg]

I do not appreciate the accusation of "trolling." It's quite insulting.

As for Rinoa and Squall, I see entirely too much Fe in Rinoa for IEE (plus no Ne to speak of), and entirely too much Se in her for either IEE or ESE. In Squall, I see entirely too much Se and Ti and entirely too little Si and Te for SLI.

As for Zidane - same deal. An SLE can raise the emotional mood - ESEs being the only ones able to do that is a silly and ridiculous stereotype. I see Fe and Se in Zidane - I see too little Si.

We've been through this before -- EM types exist which explain preponderances of element usage in spite of what would be expected by the IM function ordering. What matters is not the elements which they use, but the elements they attempt to affect and the reasons for trying.

I will label people according to their apparent behaviors (and attitudes).

Your mistake is that you aren't looking at how the functions are used, only trying to intuit the predominance of one's element's appearance in speech. Information aspect semantics alone don't work because EM types exist.


Mirage Koan - Star Ocean: Till the End of Time



Another ILE-C

[Creepy-male]

As for Zidane - same deal. An SLE can raise the emotional mood - ESEs being the only ones able to do that is a silly and ridiculous stereotype. I see Fe and Se in Zidane - I see too little Si.

It's not about what SLEs can or can not do, Zidane fits the role of an ESE. Assuming he's acting out of his ego elements, time and time again all through the story he's there to pick Vivi and Garnet up with some story or other. He's hands-on manipulating their Fe. He's the cheerleader, that is his most prominent role in the story.

His relationship with Garnet as well is this very tender kind of bordering friendship/romance. I don't see any SLE doing that.

The above and his relaxed attitude are sign enough for Si, I don't really see how you can say that he has "too little Si".

There's another critical flaw in your argument in that you assume the HA to be capable of things it is not, and to be able to act in ways it does not. You cannot argue that an SLE with Fe HA has more Fe than Si. That is Socionics nonsense, mathematically an analogy would be that 3 > 5.

Mmkay?

[CloudCuckooLander]

It's not about what SLEs can or can not do, Zidane fits the role of an ESE. Assuming he's acting out of his ego elements, time and time again all through the story he's there to pick Vivi and Garnet up with some story or other. He's hands-on manipulating their Fe. He's the cheerleader, that is his most prominent role in the story.

His relationship with Garnet as well is this very tender kind of bordering friendship/romance. I don't see any SLE doing that.

The above and his relaxed attitude are sign enough for Si, I don't really see how you can say that he has "too little Si".

There's another critical flaw in your argument in that you assume the HA to be capable of things it is not, and to be able to act in ways it does not. You cannot argue that an SLE with Fe HA has more Fe than Si. That is Socionics nonsense, mathematically an analogy would be that 3 > 5.

Mmkay?

SLEs can be quite tender with their duals. And while an SLE has less Fe than Si, he or she would value Fe more, and thus make more of an effort to use Fe.

Additionally, I don't see a relaxed attitude in Zidane at all. I see someone constantly driven to make an immediate impact on situations arising around him - very Se. He's the risk-taker, the impulsive brigand. If he's not SLE, then he's most certainly EIE.

[Creepy-Snaps]

It is not correct to say that ESE is the last to fight and the first to make peace... that is not their role. Their role is to reveal who is trying to do the world right... and who is just out to make trouble.

"Revealing who is trying to do the world right" is more ESI I think. My conflictor . They don't care for the shortcuts we ILEs take... we don't care about *trying* to do the world right, putting in hard work, we only care about the end result, if right was actually done.

[tcaudilllg]

"Revealing who is trying to do the world right" is more ESI I think. My conflictor . They don't care for the shortcuts we ILEs take... we don't care about *trying* to do the world right, putting in hard work, we only care about the end result, if right was actually done.

Right =/= just.

[Creepy-Snaps]

Right =/= just.

I know. Continuous Ti correcting Ne, haha.

[Creepy-male]

EIE I could accept.

See, look. This is a story Zidane tells Dagger, IIRC either when they're under Madain Sari or in the Black Mage Village.

Ipsen and his good friend Colin worked at a tavern in Treno. One day, Ipsen got a letter. The letter was so wet from rain that most of the writing was illegible. The only part he could read said, 'Come back home.'. Nowadays, we have airships and stuff, but back then, it was really hard to travel. He didn't know why he had to go back, but he got some time off, gathered his things, and set out on his journey home. He walked a thousand leagues through the Mist. Sometimes he was attacked by vicious monsters, but he made it, because his friend Colin was by his side. And then, after much time on the road... He had to ask Colin something:
"Why did you come with me?"
"Only because I wanted to go with you"

You cannot tell me that that is weak Fe. You cannot tell me that the plurality of moments that Zidane has like that with Garnet and Vivi that he's not a Fe dominant, or at the very least some kind of ethical type. That is not weak Fe. That is strong Fe. That is adept, skillful, direct and targeted manipulation of emotions.

Moreover, the problem with EIE is that he's never doing his Fe thing to direct people to Causes or Issues or any of that sort of stuff, he's a here-and-now "come on guys!" cheerleader, for lack of a better word. He's always trying to get people to feel better, or relax, or what have you. This is Alpha Fe.

Okay? Good.

[CloudCuckooLander]

EIE I could accept.

See, look. This is a story Zidane tells Dagger, IIRC either when they're under Madain Sari or in the Black Mage Village.



You cannot tell me that that is weak Fe. You cannot tell me that the plurality of moments that Zidane has like that with Garnet and Vivi that he's not a Fe dominant, or at the very least some kind of ethical type. That is not weak Fe. That is strong Fe. That is adept, skillful, direct and targeted manipulation of emotions.

Moreover, the problem with EIE is that he's never doing his Fe thing to direct people to Causes or Issues or any of that sort of stuff, he's a here-and-now "come on guys!" cheerleader, for lack of a better word. He's always trying to get people to feel better, or relax, or what have you. This is Alpha Fe.

Okay? Good.

You firstly seem to have this habit of insulting, condescending speech - "Okay? Good." No, not okay. I find it very insulting, and do take offense.

You likewise seem to be severely stereotyping EIEs - and ignoring many of Zidane's actions, for that matter. Sure, he never mobilizes related to sociological or geopolitical issues - but he does direct people to assist Garnet (and later himself, when Kuja's role becomes clear) in taking action. Any Fe-ego (and for that matter, most anyone who isn't Fe-superego) type can raise the emotional mood around him. The point is that Zidane quite clearly seems to value Se - he's very impulsive, and very aimed at making a direct and immediate impact.

[Creepy-male]

So you're an obnoxious asshole and don't understand Socionics. Discussion closed, move along.

Good work losing my respect by demanding it.

[Creepy-Snaps]

You cannot tell me that that is weak Fe.

I'm not getting into sides with respect at all... I'm not even familiar with the character(s) you're talking about. But I'd just like to point out that perhaps the example you listed Thanks Arthur could be seen as Se instead of Fe...

Ipsen and his good friend Colin worked at a tavern in Treno. One day, Ipsen got a letter. The letter was so wet from rain that most of the writing was illegible. The only part he could read said, 'Come back home.'. Nowadays, we have airships and stuff, but back then, it was really hard to travel. He didn't know why he had to go back, but he got some time off, gathered his things, and set out on his journey home. He walked a thousand leagues through the Mist. Sometimes he was attacked by vicious monsters, but he made it, because his friend Colin was by his side. And then, after much time on the road... He had to ask Colin something:
"Why did you come with me?"
"Only because I wanted to go with you"

"Fe is responsible for the perception of an emotional state in an individual and the bodily and linguistic expression of emotions. Fe is able to influence others' emotional condition and to communicate its own, "infecting" others. Fe is used especially in generating and recognizing excitement and enthusiasm."

"Se is responsible for the perception, control, defense, and acquisition of space, territory, and control. It observes outward appearances, estimates whether forces are in alignment or conflict, and uses strength of will and power-based methods to achieve purposes. Se understands territory and physical aggression. It is also the function of contact and apprehension of qualia."

................. To put it simply: in the example, Colin is not actively influencing Ipsen's emotional state. He's just going along with him for the journey. Sounds more Se than Fe imho.

Again, I don't know the characters. That is simply an assumption based on the example. I don't know if perhaps Colin is a character of high emotions, shown in other parts of the game, or regularly influences other people, or if it's implied that Colin did more than 'go along' with Ipsen during the journey, implied that he kept up his spirits. If he did, I didn't infer that from the example. I inferred Colin went along for the adventure and to be with Ipsen because he cares about him strongly... but even Thinkers can care strongly, that's not showing Fe...

Again, this is not to offend you or anyone who thinks strongly about this subject. And actually, I can't say that it shows especially strong Se, or weak Fe. Doesn't show strong anything. I'd need to know the story/character more to make a more accurate guess. But just from the example, I'd lean more toward Se.

[Creepy-male]

Sorry, I perhaps wasn't clear. The quote I made is a story Zidane (who we're arguing about) is telling a friend of his, Garnet. What I'm arguing is strong Fe is Zidane using that story to make Garnet feel like less of a useless dead weight (which was what the scene was about).

Colin and Ipsen have nothing to do with anything, they're just people in the story Zidane chose to retell.

EDIT

And to clarify I don't feel especially strongly about the subject, I just take issue to people being wrong on the internet. Socionics is a symmetrical and logical system, and it irks me when that structure and logic is done away with with seemingly incredibly facile statements like SLES ARE ALLOWED TO HAVE STRONG FE DERP DERP DERP. No they're not, you just suck at Socionics. That breaks the definition of the HA. @Cloudcuckoolander: it's easy. Think about how you deal with structural logic. Apply every attribute of that to reading, tracking, and manipulating people's emotions, and you have Fe HA. Simple, right? This is why I keep trying to say Zidane is too good at Fe for Fe HA to make any kind of sense whatsoever.

I can't imagine anything in particular would sway my opinion of Zidane from being ESE, but I'm still open to having my mind blown by a hard-hitting and detailed analysis of his character and plot role. IEE would perhaps be acceptable, but I have my reservations.

[DividedsGhost]

[para]

I agree with ILE for Lucca.