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    Default Is duality is not a perfect criterion for marriage?

    From what I understand about duality, it is beneficial in that duals help each other see the big picture from either partner's PoV. Dual partners correct each others' false assumptions about the situation at hand. (in contrast to conflictors, who only end up reinforcing each others' fallacies). They also help their partners transform the situation into something more favorable to them by pointing out opportunities their partners may have overlooked.

    But, what about when what you really desperately need, due to environmental conditions beyond your control, is the touch of a type other than your dual?

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    This is always a difficult issue to look at because what you need may be best for you in marriage, but compared to days past marriage is now about what you want. What you want and need can be very different things.
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    It's funny that you bring this up. I was pondering a scenario in which a dual couple have a conflictor/supervisee child. Even with duality there would be no balance for the child itself.

    I settled on Super Ego being the perfect relationship for having children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    It's funny that you bring this up. I was pondering a scenario in which a dual couple have a conflictor/supervisee child. Even with duality there would be no balance for the child itself.

    I settled on Super Ego being the perfect relationship for having children.
    Interesting you should say that...My parents are probably super-egos, and they have done a wonderful job raising me and my siblings.
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    EyeSeeCold that's an astute observation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    EyeSeeCold that's an astute observation.
    It is. And it rather makes sense, too. Because there is no way to predict beforehand what type one's children will be, and if the child's parents are from opposing quadras, that means that the child will always have at least one parent in either his same quadra or a neighboring quadra.

    The only issue, then, is for the parents themselves to make the marriage work. Mine have managed to do it, for 26 years...I suppose it helps to have a lot of non-socionics things in common, like religion, life goals, interests, etc.
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    Duality is by no means the only thing that's necessary to having a good relationship with someone. I think that a lot of descriptions of duality out there state that there has to be some sort of common ground outside of socionics for a relationship to survive or even get off the ground: culture, religion, hobbies, tastes, values etc are probably more important in how a relationship works out. I've known a couple of ISTps that I've had 0 interest in romantically or even as friends due to the above personal factors.

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    socionics is not 'the answer', there is no 'THE ANSWER', there's lots of parts to it all

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Even with duality there would be no balance for the child itself.

    I settled on Super Ego being the perfect relationship for having children.
    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    Interesting you should say that...My parents are probably super-egos, and they have done a wonderful job raising me and my siblings.
    Just being nitpicky (Ti), but pointing out a difference: I think you mean Super-ego is best for the children, growing up in a more psychologically balanced environment no matter what their type. I believe Duality is still best for the married couple... easier for the parents raising the children.

    Of course people have different opinions on whether it's better long-term 'for the children' for parents to focus on raising them or on their own marriage. I still think a healthy marriage is best for the kids to grow under, to be raised in a loving environment, even if children don't see eye to eye with their parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    But, what about when what you really desperately need, due to environmental conditions beyond your control, is the touch of a type other than your dual?
    Please expand what you mean by "environmental conditions beyond your control". As you noted, your dual is the best at bringing about positive change for you, opening your eyes and seeing opportunities, etc. Benefactors and Supervisors are helpful too, but I think their version of positive change is tougher to swallow. But please expand your argument: until you mention what kind of environmental circumstances you mean, I still think duality is the best for changing, or any kind of other 'touch' that you need.

    And as for your other question, is duality a perfect criterion for marriage? I guess a perfect criterion, yes, but not a perfect requisite. Certainly a perfect criterion for getting along, lasting long-term, having an intimate understand and shot at true love. But even some may not focus on getting along with their partners as importantly, but rather focus on raising kids, reaching their life/career goals, etc.

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    But, what about when what you really desperately need, due to environmental conditions beyond your control, is the touch of a type other than your dual?
    That's honestly impossible tcaud. I'm not trying to idealize duality. But what they do for you *is* always naturally - everything you need. There is nothing else. It's as good as it gets. Thinking otherwise makes a person become narcissistic. 'Always thinking there's something better around the corner.'

    The only thing I ever need is personal, physical willpower to overcome objective physical obstacles that stand in my way of changing/growing/evolving, of not being stuck in unhealthy and repetitive psychological patterns. It's really the only thing that's blocked in me- all else is just fluff. It's the cutting of fluff. It doesn't mean that I'm necessarily going to feel all romantic or misty-headed when an estp calls me out on my shit. It isn't like that. But it's always what I need. Not maybe what I think I want, but it is what I need. And I can always go 'Oh. Okay.'

    EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TIME.

    Again don't think that it has anything to do with idealizing people because it really doesn't. But, duals are the person that makes you function in the outside world without feeling like society is out to get you or that you are the world's victim. Without them I wouldn't try anything and without me they would destroy everything out of anger because they wouldn't feel the love and peace of true pure heart meaning.

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    No offense, duality champions, but, I can name a few EIIs on this forum that I would pretty much freak if I were married to them.

    How is it that someone's entire psychological disposition and relationship competence, no less marriage capacity, is reduced to an intertype relationship?


    The core of what actually makes a relationship function is being aware of how you breakdown during stress and what things you prefer or look for outside of yourself. If you find someone who gels with that, good deal.


    ...again, I think socionics should be seen as one factor, not THE factor. Just like opposing quadras may struggle in a relationship, opposing life views and cultural backgrounds may struggle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    No offense, duality champions, but, I can name a few EIIs on this forum that I would pretty much freak if I were married to them.

    How is it that someone's entire psychological disposition and relationship competence, no less marriage capacity, is reduced to an intertype relationship?


    The core of what actually makes a relationship function is being aware of how you breakdown during stress and what things you prefer or look for outside of yourself. If you find someone who gels with that, good deal.


    ...again, I think socionics should be seen as one factor, not THE factor. Just like opposing quadras may struggle in a relationship, opposing life views and cultural backgrounds may struggle.
    Forgive me, but ... (lol)

    I am beginning to suspect that the LSE-EII dual pair may be less likely to form than some others. I think my LSE ex, if he knew about Socionics, would have a similar attitude to yours, Ryu, that the EIIs he'd identified were not right for him. And for months I've been receiving emails from what appears to be an LSE who thinks I would be perfect for him. I'm not. I expect that guy would not be likely to pinpoint an EII in his environment as right for him. Sure this is just anecdotal, but it's something I've wondered about after hearing from EIIs who can't find their dual.

    Both my ex and the e-mail pursuer seem to think that I could/can be molded into what they want. They also seem to have, deep down, this idea that you can make marriage and relationships work. I'm not sure they'd put it that way themselves. But they seem to elevate pragmatism and control to a level that is untenable where human relationships are concerned. Where love is concerned.

    Both my ex and the email guy have done the same thing: lay out a practical case for wanting me and get into planning how to be with me. They also easily form/formed a sentimental kind of attachment to me that overrides real wisdom. I sort of see both these men as potentially doomed to end up in unsatisfactory relationships because they are out of touch with ... something. I don't know if I could call it that Ni/Fe problem of not being able to read the vibes and see the long-term picture of how the relationship will play out or what, but it could be one way of viewing the matter.

    I don't recommend using this forum's duals as a litmus test for what your duals are like. First, you don't really know them, second, they are not spokespeople for their type. Nobody is.

    I do think of myself as a spokesperson on this forum in a way, lol. Redbaron, too. We married our conflictor and supervisee, respectively. We both are experimenting with dual relationships: what is duality, how does it feel, how does it differ from other relations, etc. So think of me as a negative example, if you will, of someone who made the same mistake you might, of thinking, quite understandably (and led by an LSE into this thinking), that two well-intentioned, good-hearted people can always make a relationship work, and that one's personal will matters more than funky underlying psychological factors beyond one's control.

    If someone can't read the vibes and the signs for what the future looks like, then that person more than anyone else should take Socionics seriously.

    I see from your previous post that you know some duals. Have you known them over the long-term? Because that's what counts, and it's what Socionics best describes: the long-term viability of a relationship. I don't know how to make this clear to someone whom I expect is not holding that long-term picture inside above all, but I will say this:

    Making your mind up against duality in advance, based on short-term indicators, isn't logical, even if your arguments are logical.
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    ryu, i havent gotten the impression anyone is saying ANY DUAL WILL DO AS LONG AS ITS A DUAL. or at least i hope thats not what they mean, cos that really would be pretty silly.

    i think that things like conflicting goals are much more easily worked out if there is psychological compatibility, and i think that should be considered.

    idk, i'm not in the "it has to be duality" camp and i'm not in the "outside factors render socionics essentially useless" camp either. i just feel like it doesnt have to be that complicated with awareness and common sense? maybe it has to do with Fi ego, but i dont really see relationships as something to be hinged too much on theory or objectivity in general. i think people should be aware of socionics factors but not rely on the theory entirely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Forgive me, but ... (lol)

    I am beginning to suspect that the LSE-EII dual pair may be less likely to form than some others. I think my LSE ex, if he knew about Socionics, would have a similar attitude to yours, Ryu, that the EIIs he'd identified were not right for him. And for months I've been receiving emails from what appears to be an LSE who thinks I would be perfect for him. I'm not. I expect that guy would not be likely to pinpoint an EII in his environment as right for him. Sure this is just anecdotal, but it's something I've wondered about after hearing from EIIs who can't find their dual.

    Both my ex and the e-mail pursuer seem to think that I could/can be molded into what they want. They also seem to have, deep down, this idea that you can make marriage and relationships work. I'm not sure they'd put it that way themselves. But they seem to elevate pragmatism and control to a level that is untenable where human relationships are concerned. Where love is concerned.
    That's sort of a broad generalization about LSEs, don't you think?

    Both my ex and the email guy have done the same thing: lay out a practical case for wanting me and get into planning how to be with me. They also easily form/formed a sentimental kind of attachment to me that overrides real wisdom. I sort of see both these men as potentially doomed to end up in unsatisfactory relationships because they are out of touch with ... something. I don't know if I could call it that Ni/Fe problem of not being able to read the vibes and see the long-term picture of how the relationship will play out or what, but it could be one way of viewing the matter.
    Ok...(?) And that's because they are LSE, or because they are stupid or about understanding relationships -- or is that one in the same in your mind?

    He sounds... blinded, yes. He sounds like someone who's not ready for a relationship, to say the least...


    I don't recommend using this forum's duals as a litmus test for what your duals are like. First, you don't really know them, second, they are not spokespeople for their type. Nobody is.
    Nether do I. You need to interact with people in real life especially when it comes to real relationships

    I do think of myself as a spokesperson on this forum in a way, lol. Redbaron, too. We married our conflictor and supervisee, respectively. We both are experimenting with dual relationships: what is duality, how does it feel, how does it differ from other relations, etc. So think of me as a negative example, if you will, of someone who made the same mistake you might,
    Whaaaa?

    So you see nondual long term relationships as a mistake? Oh my.

    of thinking, quite understandably (and led by an LSE into this thinking), that two well-intentioned, good-hearted people can always make a relationship work, and that one's personal will matters more than funky underlying psychological factors beyond one's control.
    I don't know if you've been reading my posts or understand what I'm talking about, but my 'argument' is that socionics is just one factor in things. I'm not saying it doesn't have any influence. And I'm certainly, certainly not saying that "that two well-intentioned, good-hearted people can always make a relationship work, and that one's personal will matters more than..." more than .... more than anything else.

    The very thing I am trying to get thinking that if you just do one thing (like find a dual, or "want really hard" to have a good relationship), you're set. I'm not buying that you and whoever else's failed relationships and marriages are because they weren't "your dual".

    To be a jerk - if you seriously thought that "being good intentioned" or having "good hearts" were the only things at play in a relationship before you came to duality, then I'd say your chances of having any sort of successful long term endeavor were slim.

    If someone can't read the vibes and the signs for what the future looks like, then that person more than anyone else should take Socionics seriously.
    They should take a long long ride with themselves, if you ask me
     
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    Seriously though...... yes, socionics can help, but, how can you sincerely attribute so much to socionics?

    I see from your previous post that you know some duals. Have you known them over the long-term? Because that's what counts, and it's what Socionics best describes: the long-term viability of a relationship.
    Disagree.

    I believe that to be a projection of many who come to socionics, though. It's what they want socionics to be -- but socionics isn't. Maybe because of, well, past relationship baggage and trying to find an answer, it's even more appealing to put socionics on that pedastal. Socionics does provide some answers, I agree - that's why I'm here. But it's one aspect of relationships, not the whole deal.


    And yes, I've known "duals for a long term". Have you known your duals "for a long time?", I don't even know how that is supposed to make sense - I doubt you're going to have any means to compare long term relationships, especially without whatever baggage or experience you've derived from other ones.

    ...and if all you've learned from past relationships is that you better find your dual, well, I think that should be a concern.

    I don't know how to make this clear to someone whom I expect is not holding that long-term picture inside above all, but I will say this:

    Making your mind up against duality in advance, based on short-term indicators, isn't logical, even if your arguments are logical.
    What, is that what you see me as doing?
    I'm not.

    I'm arguing against the OP title - duality is a perfect criterion for marriage. And more so, the idea that all you have to do is find your dual and you are set. I that's putting way too much faith in a theoretical system. And I entirely disagree, as mentioned, that socionics is about the long term viability of relationships. Again, I think that's what a lot of people who come to the forum like to tell themselves to feel better about things, but, I think that's assuming a lot -- that your dual is mature, intelligent, attractive, has compatible family attitudes, compatible sex drive, is actually capable of understanding you in a deep way, wants to have a relationship with you, wants something long term, has enough cultural viability to gel with your culture, has enough money based on your preferences for such, and everything else.

    -- you know, the kind of stuff that the email guy ought to know about you, to realize that he's not your perfect match? He's apparently too ignorant or desperate or deluded to realize what he's doing --- and he's somebody's dual. I don't think that setting him up with an EII (if that is his actual dual) is going to bring about a fulfilling relationship for them both, just because SOCIONICS IS MAGIC.

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    That was probably more biting than I'd prefer. Ehhh, sorry, I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton2 View Post
    Sometimes ISFjs say or do something that's mesmerizing and strikes some unconscious chord. And it surprises the hell out of me and is nice because I didn't know someone else thought/felt the same way I did about whatever.

    But then there's a lot of other shit about many of them that'll make me hateful when I catch sight of it. Stuff about the person(s). I think it's easy to feel hyper-critical of duals when you see them as being fuckups/dipshits in some way. And I get decisively intolerant of their faults more than I normally would any other person's.

    So yeah uh, I don't think this stuff is easy as you guys make it out to be lol.
    I do understand this. What you said in the first para, about someone else thinking and feeling the same way as you, and that surprising you? That's really cool. Imagine how important that kind of thing--thinking/feeling like you do--can be over 20 or 30 years.

    I also understand what you mean about duals bugging the hell out of you, because yeah, I see my dual's faults really clearly. It's also almost like, as duality unfolds, those faults are being thrown in my face, and mine in my dual's. I'm not sure why this is. It's almost like, the psyche, in the presence of someone who seems to be able to see me clearly and fully, wants to unleash a lot of pent-up stuff. It's like I'm TOO relaxed and things start bubbling up.

    Again, the things you're seeing, although they could just arise from instances of particular duals who are not right for you, they also could be things that over time will fade into nonproblems or resolve themselves in some way.

    The other thing: people are messy little buggers.

    I think part of the reason my LSE ex felt good being with me was that in conflict, the funny thing is how very difficult it is for conflicts to come to the surface. Everything remains stuffed down very deeply, and you can just focus on arranging the surface. The surface is something that can be managed and controlled.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton2 View Post
    But then maybe you'd probably start taking it for granted too. It's bound to lose it's impact after awhile.
    Sure, the impact phase of any relationship will wear away. But the dual couples I have pinpointed in my life, people who've been together a long, long time--they have this other stuff that comes to the fore. They have a lot of fun, appreciate each other, count on each other. It's not about impact, therefore. It's about that feeling of being at home in someone else, with someone else.

    Well, yeah. I think my 1st impressions of people are always an accurate signal. I've deliberately gone against them many times to 'test' them wondering "maybe I'm just being arrogant and judgmental." But nope it always ends up an exercise of me shooting myself in the foot and realizing I was right after all. So I go with it.
    I think I was preaching to the LSE here, not to the choir. I don't think LSEs are as good at this as you are with your strong Ni, sorry. Maybe I'm misjudging LSEs. Ime, LSEs can surprise me, as they're not closed-minded but will draw conclusions about people, negative and positive, based on stuff that seems only half relevant to me. And again, sorry, but over time I have seen their first impressions turn out to be oh so very wrong. In the workplace I have seen them get new people right through investigation, through trial-and-error, through calling on a team of people with various viewpoints to assess someone, but rarely or never on this sort of accurate flash of a first impression you're describing.

    I agree that conflictors are easy in that way. I feel like it's difficult to get close enough on a psychological level to fight about anything. I mean I have nothing in common with ISFps, wtf would we hate each other about?
    It's not impossible at all for me to find a conflictor with whom I do have something in common. I can carry on long conversations with conflictor men and find them very funny and interesting and understand everything they say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton2 View Post
    Sometimes ISFjs say or do something that's mesmerizing and strikes some unconscious chord. And it surprises the hell out of me and feels really nice because I didn't know someone else thought/felt the same way I did about whatever. It's almost cathartic even.
    Exactly. I have the same experience with the words of ILE. It's not just that I agree, but the words really go right into my soul. And it's nothing complicated. Like the ILE says something kind of simple and logical about some everyday thing and I go "wow". They think the thoughts I would have thought if I could think clearly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    That's honestly impossible tcaud. I'm not trying to idealize duality. But what they do for you *is* always naturally - everything you need. There is nothing else. It's as good as it gets. Thinking otherwise makes a person become narcissistic. 'Always thinking there's something better around the corner.'
    Ok, I'm really starting to get creeped out by this kind of attitude. What are you guys trying to make socionics out to be? I couldn't disagree with the bolded statement more...

    I mean, seriously - do you suppose that all duals are inherently designed to pull you in the right direction in life? I don't know about you all, but, my interactions with my duals hardly all fit into the same category. One married a military man and ended up being a stay at home mom, one wants to travel the world, one wants to write childrens books, one wants to get a PhD and have a career in a field I could care less about, one wants a quiet religious life.

    And all of their maturity levels and life directions are different. The idea that you put me with one of them and say "NOW BE HAPPY FOREVER", they have all you need, is bullshit. If that's how you choose to view relationships, then, go ahead, but I'd suggest your just as naive as anyone else, if not more so.

    It's a little bit too much system > reality for my liking.


    The only thing I ever need is personal, physical willpower to overcome objective physical obstacles that stand in my way of changing/growing/evolving, of not being stuck in unhealthy and repetitive psychological patterns. It's really the only thing that's blocked in me- all else is just fluff. It's the cutting of fluff. It doesn't mean that I'm necessarily going to feel all romantic or misty-headed when an estp calls me out on my shit. It isn't like that. But it's always what I need. Not maybe what I think I want, but it is what I need. And I can always go 'Oh. Okay.'
    That's useful.
    (I think that applies to most NFs)

    EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TIME.

    Again don't think that it has anything to do with idealizing people because it really doesn't. But, duals are the person that makes you function in the outside world without feeling like society is out to get you or that you are the world's victim. Without them I wouldn't try anything and without me they would destroy everything out of anger because they wouldn't feel the love and peace of true pure heart meaning.
    That's romantic and sweet.

    ... apparently a lot of people like using the romanticised vision of duality to derive a sense of meaning and belonging. --- with my dual I know they need me, etc etc etc.

    Things you tell yourself to feel better, yeah?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Ok, I'm really starting to get creeped out by this kind of attitude. What are you guys trying to make socionics out to be? I couldn't disagree with the bolded statement more...

    I mean, seriously - do you suppose that all duals are inherently designed to pull you in the right direction in life? I don't know about you all, but, my interactions with my duals hardly all fit into the same category. One married a military man and ended up being a stay at home mom, one wants to travel the world, one wants to write childrens books, one wants to get a PhD and have a career in a field I could care less about, one wants a quiet religious life.

    And all of their maturity levels and life directions are different. The idea that you put me with one of them and say "NOW BE HAPPY FOREVER", they have all you need, is bullshit. If that's how you choose to view relationships, then, go ahead, but I'd suggest your just as naive as anyone else, if not more so.

    It's a little bit too much system > reality for my liking.



    That's useful.
    (I think that applies to most NFs)


    That's romantic and sweet.

    ... apparently a lot of people like using the romanticised vision of duality to derive a sense of meaning and belonging. --- with my dual I know they need me, etc etc etc.

    Things you tell yourself to feel better, yeah?
    you have no idea how perfect you are for your dual. In particular a EII friend shares that same lashing tongue. EII are made out to be humanitarians but they have standards that often leaves them isolated but they maintain their diginity by remaining true to their own personal standards. However a EII can rant and rave about the opposite sex saying how women want to meet a nice guy and he considers himself a nice guy (which he is not really - I always have to do a reality check and remind him your a guy first and foremost and that is how women view you and what do women think most guys want?). In the same manner his views on religion often involes an half-hour speil about how people turn to religion because their desperately seeking some meaningful existence, etc. He can be very self-righteous and place himself into a black and white stance - either your with me or your against me. The only other type that I have seen relentlessly criticize people or institutions is a LSE. Funny enough in a philosophic duality sense EII (each person has a duality) have that humanitirian breathe, they can really reach out to people in unexpected ways. The same can be said for LSE, they can be alot of fun and usually do not like chatter but activities of sort. LSE and EII can back you up when everyone else has turned against you.

    From what I have experienced LSE have the same range of emotional depth as EII - they can go beyond what I think perhaps other types would consider inappropriate or rough but can quickly redeem themselves. Actually a LSE friend will act like an asshole but then call himself an asshole and laugh it off - my EII friend will do something similar where their impluse is checked by their conscience - a EII will say something to jerk you around and then call himself a jerk and laugh it off. strange.

    here is another example of duals acting out duality but not necessarily together. At a bar a SLE is dj-ing dance music and she is the only one dancing amongst her friends but having a great time. Within our circle of friends a IEI is the only one dancing amongst our friends to the same beat and could care less that he is the only one dancing just like her. its purely coincidental than say providence but it certainly makes me think of socionics differently when paying attention to people and their interactions with their duals or abstence thereof instead of thinking of woe of is. I guess what I have been trying to do lately is match making for my friends with their duals instead of thinking of myself but I've gotten into alot of trouble because sometimes their duals are not single and I didn't realize that.

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    perhaps another way of viewing duality is its not that they don't get along nor that they do not like each other etc. It could be they do not see how compatible they really are - they judge the image of themselves and their dual. So you could have a nerdy LII and and nerdy ILI who appear identical to a popular ESE and SEE. In a romantic sense duality can be true love or love unrealised. In friendship its a bond unsewn.

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