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    Default KazeCraven's Socionics Type = ????

    I would guess I'm ILI, however I do not relate to the nonemotionality, and despite keeping to myself I am quite friendly when approached.

    -Irrational, because I do things in a nonlinear fashion, my sense of time in the broader sense is rather poor, and I'm a neophiliac (love novelty of environment)
    -Introvert, because I much prefer others to initiate, and I seek depth over breadth
    -Intuitive, because I like concepts and underlying principles
    -Logic, because I am more prone to thinking about truth rather than right/wrongness, and like playing around with complex systems

    Also relevant: I would consider myself INTP by MBTI, but only by the cognitive processes; by description I fall under INTP and INFP.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    I noticed no one has posted in a while.

    Try the Reinin dichotomies:
    Dichotomies - Wikisocion

    And read some descriptions:
    Ïñèõîëîãèÿ è ñîöèîíèêà :: Ïðîñìîòð ôîðóìà - Psychology, NLP, Socionics, MBTI

    Then come back and present the possible types you've come up with. It'll be easier this way.

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    Guesstimation is ISFp. What are your problems with that type?

    None of your original post necessarily contradicts that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    I noticed no one has posted in a while.

    Try the Reinin dichotomies:
    Dichotomies - Wikisocion

    And read some descriptions:
    Ïñèõîëîãèÿ è ñîöèîíèêà :: Ïðîñìîòð ôîðóìà - Psychology, NLP, Socionics, MBTI

    Then come back and present the possible types you've come up with. It'll be easier this way.
    Well, I was pretty strongly Democratic and somewhat strongly Judicious, which points to Alpha and a possible secondary Gamma. Other dichotomies were more situational, or many of my traits were split among the two categories. I'm ruling out the j-types especially the Ejs (reading the descriptions you gave), and ESFp due to it being way too in-your-face-esque to fit me.

    That leaves ENTp, ISFp, and INTp, and the descriptions of these don't grate on me (but don't necessarily describe me to a T either). I'm leaning towards ENTp at the moment, but not because it's an E-type, rather the overall description rings a little better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    Guesstimation is ISFp. What are your problems with that type?

    None of your original post necessarily contradicts that.
    The ISFp seems a bit too family and practically oriented, but I don't have any serious objections to it. I looked at INFp for comparison, but the description I read just now was very dramatic and a little ridiculous I thought. I might need to consult another source though, because it looks like the authors for these are just random people.

    Other sources paint the ISFp as more aesthetically oriented than I have been most of my life, and there is a general lack of the off-beat page that I tend to start people with. I don't approach people often, but when I do it's usually with a smile and lots and lots of questions (unless the other person redirects the conversation, which often is the case). There's no way I could get at the core of someone's character quickly, like one description said, unless that person was very open with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KazeCraven View Post
    -Irrational, because I do things in a nonlinear fashion, my sense of time in the broader sense is rather poor, and I'm a neophiliac (love novelty of environment)
    Without falling into clichés too easily, is often more associated to time and to possibilities, but as your initial guesses are all types having N in slot #1 or #2 it shouldn't be used as a criteria (if you have strong you also have strong and you are very likely to understand and exhibit patterns and variants of both)

    Also relevant: I would consider myself INTP by MBTI, but only by the cognitive processes
    Unfortunately, and I'm in the process of collecting enough evidence of that, there are illogical facts in the MBTI functional breakdowns. It's so subtle you might have the impression you are reading something that makes sense, whereas it doesn't and it's only a "corrective patch".

    Now INTj and INTp are similar types, and INTp and INFp also are but for different reasons.

    ENTp are not always very extroverted in the "outgoing" sense, and are not far from INTj.

    Tell us more about yourself KazeCraven.
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


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    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    ENTp are not always very extroverted in the "outgoing" sense
    Tell this to polikujm plz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Tell this to polikujm plz.
    What I identify with:
    from Socionics :: Extraversion / Introversion

    perception of extroverts
    focused on demands and objective nature of outside world rather than on one's subjective ties with outside world
    perceive world as objects that can be taken apart, studied, known, and compared to each other; extrapolate ties between objects from objects' characteristics
    qualities of objects are taken for granted, while interrelationships between objects are seen as being malleable; change interaction of objects to better fit qualities of objects
    feel responsible for events and situations that form around them and others

    perception of introverts
    focused on one's ties with and subjective perception of outside world rather than outside world itself
    perceive world as ties or interrelationships between objects; extrapolate qualities of objects from their interrelationships with other objects
    interrelationships are taken for granted, while qualities of object are seen as being malleable; adapt qualities of objects to better fit their interrelationships
    feel responsible for quality of their own and others' psychological 'field' (nature of interaction between subject and outside world)



    physiology of extroverts
    focused on expending energy; need to expend energy and attention to reach state of complete equilibrium
    generally have higher optimal level of arousal
    on average more commanding, assertive voice
    tend to gesticulate from the shoulder down

    physiology of introverts
    focused on conserving energy; need to be given energy and attention to reach state of complete equilibrium
    slightly lower optimal level of arousal
    on average slightly less commanding voice
    tend to gesticulate from the elbow down



    emotions of extroverts
    socionic extraversion does NOT equal outgoingness
    liven up in unfamiliar settings or when they have someone to give their energy and attention to
    like to involve others and don't appreciate others trying to involve them


    emotions of introverts
    socionic introversion does NOT equal unsocialibility or shyness
    liven up in familiar settings or when someone is giving them energy and attention
    like to be involved by others and don't appreciate others who expect them to involve them


    intellectual qualities of extroverts
    wider and more superficial interests; interested in things that don't apply to them
    need greater stream of external stimuli to avoid boredom
    attention and thought tend to be focused on present and near future
    need to speak their thoughts out loud to know what they think


    intellectual qualities of introverts
    narrower but deeper interests; clearer sense of what applies to them and what doesn't
    get more absorbed in situations than extraverts
    attention and thought tend to be focused on present and recent past
    know what they think without having to express their thoughts out loud



    strengths of extroverts
    starting from scratch
    comparing people's traits and skills objectively
    respecting people's individual traits and values without trying to change them
    enjoy taking on new responsibilities
    increasing the scale of tasks
    creating and directing situations
    forming new ties between people

    strengths of introverts
    creating finished products
    usually better listeners and supporters
    not interfering in others' relationships
    enjoy limiting their responsibilities
    scaling back tasks
    developing new qualities and values in people
    adjusting to situations and existing ties between people


    typical talents of extroverts
    making contacts
    expanding organizations' activities
    promoting others

    typical talents of introverts
    working with regular partners and organizations' internal affairs
    perfecting organization's internal structure



    weaknesses of extroverts
    mismanaging their inner world; trying to make sense of and find themselves
    overdoing things; wasting energy and spreading themselves too thin
    can become slaves to outside world and lose sense of self from constantly serving external causes
    can become drifty and keep changing their external situation without changing their attitudes and inner world

    weaknesses of introverts
    handling complex situations involving strangers
    underdoing things in the outside world; avoidance of showing 'too much' initiative
    can disappear into an imaginary world that has little to do with reality
    get stuck more easily in undesirable external situations and may not realize that they can change situation or simply get out rather than endlessly adapting


    typical doubts of extroverts
    often unsure of what ties actually exist between them and others
    often afraid of losing control of their inner world (feelings, reactions to external stimuli)

    typical doubts of introverts
    often unsure of how they (their traits, skills, etc.) compare to other people
    often afraid of being unnoticed and unneeded in outside world


    extroverted behavior in relationships
    continual expansion; forgetting what ground has been covered
    keep widening relationship by adding new material or activities
    develop and look after partners' external life (activities, interests, circle of friends, useful opportunities)

    introverted behavior in relationships
    manage inner life of relationship
    accepting of partners' initiative
    develop and look after partners' inner life (feelings, sentiments, inner needs, subjective perception of reality)

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    Inception Mastermind KeroZen's Avatar
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    typical doubts of extroverts:
    often unsure of what ties actually exist between them and others
    This one is bit weird for a Fi ego. Your lazer beam detector ain't working properly?
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


    -----
    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    This one is bit weird for a Fi ego. Your lazer beam detector ain't working properly?
    Keep an open mind to what the essence of the IMs express. Jung Fi is the closest representation of what it extracts. Though personally, this is not a large problem, I can gauge important ties, but often I wonder too much. I second guess statuses a lot, and have an hourly variance with how close I am with someone, that which I am not too conscious of because I'm rather introverted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KazeCraven View Post
    I would guess I'm ILI, however I do not relate to the nonemotionality
    INTp's aren't robots. We are emotional, but just not the drama queens that INFp's can be.

    My bet is that you are INTp, and I'm quite certain about it.

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    Sorting between ILI and LII should be easy using the polarization sorter question.

    Sorting between ILI and IEI might be a little bit trickier because they use the same tools to perceive the world but different thought processes.

    Usually mature and objective IEI will acknowledge they might be a tad weaker on the logic side and mature and objective ILI a tad weaker on the ethics side.

    Following the IxI hypothesis, reading socionics descriptions of these two types should definitely ring a bell in you (they share the Ni and Se aspects) but one is likely to get you more a "gut feeling" than the other.

    ILI are proud of being at times more logical than IEI, and IEI are proud of being at times more ethical than ILI... :wink:

    Let's try to determine if you are more Te than Ti or the inverse perhaps. If you are Te then it would rule IEI, LII and ILE out at once.
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


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    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

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    @Jarno: Thanks for the input. I'm guessing the reason you didn't elaborate is because it is difficult to articulate what, exactly, makes me seem INTp? Being able to say with such certainty with so little information would have to be due to such a process.

    @ZeroKen: Tell more about myself? What sorts of things shall I say? I can say many things about my general life path, or my self-image, or my interests, etc.

    And what is this polarization sorter question? Is this simply reading about the dichotomies and deciding which seems to fit better? I'm guessing not, though I've done this already and resonate more with XXXp than XXXj.

    If Te and Ti are the same in MBTI as in Socionics, then Ti over Te. (To clarify, this would be the difference between holistic subjective logic used for extracting logical essence and stepwise objective logic used for directing/organizing.) But seeing as how you claim that the MBTI functions are flawed, I would suppose not. Also, since you've brought it up, what are you referring to when you say that such functional breakdown contains illogical facts? Without knowing your reasoning I am inclined to discount your judgment as faulty.
    --

    I'm tired, so if you're trying to type me by my way with words you should know that I'm not thinking as much about how, exactly, to appropriately convey my questions and concerns. And in retrospect, perhaps this is even better for producing such an analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KazeCraven View Post
    @Jarno: Thanks for the input. I'm guessing the reason you didn't elaborate is because it is difficult to articulate what, exactly, makes me seem INTp? Being able to say with such certainty with so little information would have to be due to such a process.
    Good guess!

    If you spend some time here you'll notice that LII's and IEI's talk a different 'language' then ILI's.

    You sound somewhat more bussiness-like and to the point to be a wooshy wooshy IEI.

    And LII's posts are very hard to read for me.

    It's not hard to spot.

    And you seem to be talking/posting in a familiar way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    Usually mature and objective IEI will acknowledge they might be a tad weaker on the logic side and mature and objective ILI a tad weaker on the ethics side.
    I actually don't think that this is a very good advice, since it's not like as if the Jungian archetypes are supposedly valid and universal in all places.

    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    ILI are proud of being at times more logical than IEI, and IEI are proud of being at times more ethical than ILI... :wink:
    I don't think that you should be "proud", at all. There comes a problem... when one's development becomes lopsided. It's no longer logic and feelings but logic versus feelings. Then the either side becomes a taboo and an enemy to be avoided. I know a few IEIs who have an unhealthy obsession with being "logical" as well the belief of the supremacy of the mind over feelings, and I'm sure that there are some ILIs who are rather proud of having a "heart". And you know, neither can be a good thing. And neither are really type related, obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    You sound somewhat more bussiness-like and to the point to be a wooshy wooshy IEI.
    That's not (really) type related!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    That's not (really) type related!!
    huh? Te is defined as 'business like'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    huh? Te is defined as 'business like'
    Where are these definitions? Is this part the same as in MBTI?

    @Golden: Don't people change how they say things to accommodate others? Not that I'm saying that that post you quoted isn't a pretty raw one (because it is).

    ---
    Also, FWIW when I ask these questions I am asking for the Socionics viewpoint. If you are giving your own opinion beyond that, please let me know.
    Last edited by KazeCraven; 11-26-2010 at 12:59 PM.

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    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    That's not (really) type related!!
    I disagree completely. Listen to me woosh.

    KazeCraven's posts sound just about zero percent like an IEI's posts, and that's bearing in mind the fairly wide range of IEIs you'll find on this forum. Including someone like Silverchris, who uses a helluva lot of Ti.

    Like this? Kaze wrote:

    And what is this polarization sorter question? Is this simply reading about the dichotomies and deciding which seems to fit better? I'm guessing not, though I've done this already and resonate more with XXXp than XXXj.

    If Te and Ti are the same in MBTI as in Socionics, then Ti over Te. (To clarify, this would be the difference between holistic subjective logic used for extracting logical essence and stepwise objective logic used for directing/organizing.) But seeing as how you claim that the MBTI functions are flawed, I would suppose not. Also, since you've brought it up, what are you referring to when you say that such functional breakdown contains illogical facts? Without knowing your reasoning I am inclined to discount your judgment as faulty.
    I can follow that. But only barely. And it's not because I'm feeble-minded, not is it because there is any flaw whatsoever in Kaze's logic. It's just slightly foreign to me, like 30 degrees away from where I stand. And I have a few good ILI friends, and it's always like this for me with them, so my guess as to type is currently ILI.

    I don't know a single IEI who would generate a stream of thought quite like this, and that last statement? Whatever it IS, it is not IEI. It's a statement from someone whose ego-block functions differ from mine. Pretty obvious.

    BTW, do you have anything positive to contribute, Singularity, or is it your mission to simply tell everyone why they're wrong? Any dumbass can do that.
    LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”

    Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”

    LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”

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    Inception Mastermind KeroZen's Avatar
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    Usually mature and objective IEI will acknowledge they might be a tad weaker on the logic side and mature and objective ILI a tad weaker on the ethics side.
    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    I actually don't think that this is a very good advice, since it's not like as if the Jungian archetypes are supposedly valid and universal in all places.
    Argh, I should put quotes around everything so people don't take anything to the letter. I also should have put "mature" and "objective" in bold, because those are the most important words in the sentence. Also a "tad" means what it means, it's very subtle, so subtle I'm in a "comparative" relation with my own ILI friends (I can "compare" to them, hence no one is really better)

    For the being proud of remark, again it's only in a ILI vs IEI sorting context. Immature people will think they have strong "weak functions" whereas mature ones will tend to be honest with themselves.

    My ILI friends often tell me they'd like they knew the ethical rules and how to behave gently with people like me, and in return I tell them I'd like to have a mind as sharp and as logical as their.

    But they're fine being ILI and wouldn't exchange their place, as much as I'm fine being IEI and wouldn't exchange my place.
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

    C. G. Jung


    -----
    Know your body, know your mind, know your limits.

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