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    Default Distinguishing between LIE and LSI

    I put this here because it's to help me decide someone's type. Anyway... suggestions?
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

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    Well it's usually kind of easy: LIEs are typically attracted to the "theorethical" or "speculative" part of a given subject, while LSIs' attitude is usually warier (they might be interested, but not as confident). LIEs are often busy with multiple unrelated projects / plans / skills / etc., LSIs are generally more focussed on a given part of their life.
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    I don't know where to start. LSI and LIE are really different. Maybe describe the person a little?
    3w4-5w6-9w8

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    Default Whew.

    EDIT 4/25/11: -snip-

    Better description on page 2.
    Last edited by Cuddly McFluffles; 04-26-2011 at 12:34 AM.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

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    Actually, he sounds LSE to me (TeSi)
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Actually, he sounds LSE to me (TeSi)
    I could see the , but what points toward Creative?
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

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    Description completed... I think. My brain's fuzzy right now, so my thinking processes are offline. I'll try to post it tomorrow.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    Here you go. It's still pretty long, but there should be less redundancy, and info is separated into paragraphs now.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    He’s a generally decent person who really loves his family. He works hard and puts in overtime constantly so we have money to do things. He seems very extroverted, though he once told me that he viewed approaching people as a “task” set by God. He’s very long-winded and prone to lecturing/sermonizing, and he will repeat something as many times as he feels is necessary, even if we react negatively to it. He also dislikes when we complain or express anger, telling us we’re supposed to “give it to Jesus”, and citing what happened to the Israelites in the OT when they complained. He doesn't like to read things that are not beneficial to him, and he has asked me before how I thought a certain series would benefit me when I asked permission to read it (long story).

    He works in a laboratory at a medical center; the job is apparently fast-paced and very detail-oriented, and he does both just fine. He said that his perfectionist traits tend to carry over to home life, as they’re not so easy to just turn off when he leaves work. He also has a tendency to try and cram too many tasks into too little time, trying to fit things in at the last minute and making us late to go places.

    Depending on one's view of the situation, he is either highly principled or morally uptight. Everyone in the family (we number 7 in all) thinks he’s a stick-in-the-mud. He won’t watch a movie if it has even one swear word in it; he believes that even one bit of something bad is too much. He has, however, shown himself willing to bend certain rules at times. I remember an instance where we were going on vacation out of state and the hotel, which had told us we could fit five people in the room, told us at the very last minute that it couldn’t be done. He was in favor of sneaking me into the hotel room anyway, since they had said up until then that it would be alright. So maybe he makes a distinction between rules and moral principles? He seems pretty accepting of liveliness, though. He’s made comments on how I used to be a lot of fun and how he enjoyed my energy, when to be frank, I was a loud kid who bounced off the walls. And, of course, he doesn’t seem to be turned off by Mom’s spastic personality. He can be fairly expressive himself at times.

    He’s pretty verbally affectionate. He’ll say things like how we’re the “most beautiful Mom/daughters he could dream of marrying/having.” I suppose he’s also physically affectionate. He tends to hug us before he leaves for work and before he goes to bed. He seems to feel like we shouldn’t be able to refuse his hug, though (which pisses me off). He likes to joke and tease; the family atmosphere is one of friendly combat.

    He seems to be pretty non-confrontational, at least outside the house; whether this is innate or due to disapproval issues rooted in his childhood, I can't fully say. Mom has really gotten on his case before because he needed to take care of something (like renters who weren’t paying, or something like that), and he wasn’t doing so. He seems to be more future-focused than Mom is, particularly in terms of saving versus spending. He has his impractical moments, though (figuratively jumping off a cliff and expecting that “God will take care of it” is not faith).

    He used to try to show me that I could do a job faster by demonstrating it himself. It never caught on; I'd just get irritated. He seems to have since accepted that I work slowly, even telling me I should choose one job over another because the former was fast-paced (and also because the latter would utilize my perfectionistic tendencies). One of our more recent issues is how he’ll ask us to do something, indicating that we have a choice when we really don’t. We ran into that recently, where he asked if I was interested to hear something in the Bible (we saw the verse on a bumper sticker); and when I decided to be honest for once and tell him I wasn’t, he said, “At least someone was,” and read it anyway.

    As I’ve mentioned before, he expects respect (read: obedience and agreement) from us, but he doesn’t necessarily feel like he has to give it in return. Perhaps a better way to put it would be that if he feels that what he has to say is going to benefit us in some way, he’ll push as hard as he needs to or talk as long as he needs to (even if he told us it wasn’t going to take long, or that he was only going to read so much). We’re apparently supposed to be understanding about this because he loves us and has our best interests at heart; and if we complain about his taking too long during devotions, we get the “God didn’t have to care about you, but He did, so shouldn’t you care about God?” spiel. Or some variation thereof.

    Health:
    He is very concerned with matters of health, something he latched onto some years ago: he checks to see what ingredients are in the food we buy; he only wants us to have sugar on weekends; he wants us to take vitamins; he wants us to get to sleep at a decent time, etc. Probably greatly due to this, he rarely gets sick. He does, however, have a tendency to overwork himself and get too little sleep.

    Religion:
    He is very, very dedicated to his religion. He likes to volunteer at church, especially in the children’s church or the church dramas. He’s also very committed to facilitating our spiritual growth. Unfortunately, he comes on way too strong. We found a clip where a Christian comedian talks about people who are “over-saved”; that’s him all the way. We get way too many mini-sermons, and that’s not counting the “evening devotions”. He tends to operate under the belief that our growth is more important than our feelings, so he’ll push his opinions on us long after we’ve expressed disagreement. Of course, we aren’t allowed to call him on his crap, argue back, or walk away; that’s disrespectful, and God said he’s the head of the house and must be obeyed, so if we disobey him, we’re really disobeying God. He really needs to learn about mental boundaries. He also has tended to neglect projects that need to be done at home because he’s off doing stuff for church. This greatly pisses my mother off. She and her mother have said that he’s approval-seeking, which is why he does so much at church.

    He finds a way to relate pretty much anything to God. He is very much into picking up after oneself, keeping our coffee-maker full of water at all times - basically "being a blessing" to others in the house. He wants our house to be clean, because he feels that God cannot give us more if we cannot be diligent with what we have.

    Anecdote - A rather recent experience that I had: I receive the Popular Science magazine (present from my mom), and I found something fascinating in it about what was known as the fastest-evolving bird(/creature?). Now, I am not a believer in evolution; but I see no problem with the idea of animals adapting to their environment. Well, I mentioned the birds to my dad. Long story short, he believes that even the idea of adaptation of species is unbiblical and wrong. He said that God created every animal at Creation the way they are now, and if I don't believe that, I might as well toss out the Bible. I got mad at him and told him he was being close-minded. Not long after, I just walked off. A day or two later, he brought it up and apologized for his getting angry over it, and i apologized for opposing him in front of the kids (he prefers I do it when they are not around, as it doesn't set a bad example, and I understand this). Well, neither of us was budging from our belief on the issue, regardless of our acknowledging having gone at it the wrong way. I made some comment along the lines of "We'll have to agree to disagree". Before we got to my school, he asked if I would at least pray and ask God to show me if I was wrong (or something like that). I ignored him, and I haven't done what he asked; because the way in which he asked came across to me as him still thinking himself right and being unwilling to consider the possibility of being wrong. I shouldn't have to be the only one willing to admit that, so I chose not to be.

    Discipline:
    His strictness in a disciplinary sense has gone from one end of the spectrum in the span of my parents' 16-year marriage. When my stepbrothers and I were children, we would get swats, or we would have to stand in the corner; my eldest brother racked up a whopping 23 hours in the corner, though I forget why. At one point, there was a "check" system, basically a certain punishment based upon the number of offenses we had committed in one day (the punishments built upon each other). Now, he may ground; he doesn't seem to spank often; he threatens (sometimes extreme punishment, like no dance classes for kids who take 11+ hours a week) but doesn't necessarily follow through, giving many, many chances to change one's behavior; or he will tell the kids to go fix their attitude by praying and then rejoin the family.

    Anecdote 1 - The one incident that really ticked me off was when my little brother made some comments about my little sister at their dance class that really embarrassed her. Mom asked Dad what kind of punishment my brother should get for that. In the end, "praying and getting his heart right, and not doing that again" was the punishment Dad decided on for him.

    Anecdote 2 - I remember this system he and Mom set up when we were younger; we'd get a "check(mark)". Each one had a different punishment of increasing severity.

    It wasn't a matter of degrees of transgressing; rather, it was increasing degrees of punishment based on how many times one has already transgressed during the day. It could be anything: hitting your brother earns you the first punishment. Not listening to Mom and Dad earns you the second punishment on the list, not because it is any worse than the other but because it is the second transgression of the day. Something else done wrong earns the third punishment, and so forth. It started over each day. That's not to say if you did something huge it wouldn't be judged accordingly; but that was the basic system.

    Socionics:
    When I first introduced him to it, he soon asked me where the practical benefit lay. He later asked me (more than once) how I plan to apply it in my future. A couple of times, he has gotten caught up in Socionic definitions that do not follow the colloquial meaning of said term (like "ethics", for example). He also believes that “one cannot put God in a box”. He sometimes asks me how I'm going to apply Socionics to...I guess what I'll be doing with my life. He also talks about how a system has to be grasp-able (my words) by people. And he wanted to know the practical application of Socionics after I kept mentioning it to him.

    Other anecdotes:
    Back in winter of ’08, we spent Christmas in California with Mom’s father and his wife. We took a day to go see a fish hatchery; and on the way, we stopped at a McDonald’s. Long story short, Mom and Dad disagreed over what to do about food. Dad wanted to save money, and Mom just wanted everyone to enjoy themselves. It ended with Dad ordering something inexpensive (that he apparently really did want) and Mom stomping off in a huff and sitting outside by the van while the rest of us ate.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    It's absolutely clear that he's Enneagram type 1. Probably 1w2, I'm guessing.

    Much of his negative features and duplicity and conduct can be explained by E1s regressing and having fantasy-like visions of themselves as being beyond their own rules. It's not at all unusual for an LSI to be that way, either, so don't take it as any sense of "well how is that Ti or how is that being IJ?", because it's not about that.

    His disciplinary system and general nature makes me think LSI. His adherence to rules and focus on "The rules" and punishment for deviation from them seems more Se and Ti than anything else. It's like he feels responsible to 'maintain and promote the system'. Definitely not something an LIE would do, and based on what I know it seems more LSI>LSE in how he goes about things.


    I doubt an LIE would painstakingly personalize so much material or be so interested in the details.
    LSE, maybe.

    LSI > LSE > >>>>>>>>>>> LIE.

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    He's immature in the sense that he thinks he's holier than thou and is unable to look at his own faults as much as he should. that's a typical setback for types that are strong in E1-ness; they seem to t hink that because they set such high standards for themselves or they are so critical of themselves in certain ways, that other people don't have valid input, or can't have valid input.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    It's absolutely clear that he's Enneagram type 1. Probably 1w2, I'm guessing.
    Interesting.

    His disciplinary system and general nature makes me think LSI. His adherence to rules and focus on "The rules" and punishment for deviation from them seems more Se and Ti than anything else.
    How does it fit with him going from highly disciplinary to barely disciplinary?

    It's like he feels responsible to 'maintain and promote the system'.
    I could see that.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    This guy sounds like a clone of my LIE father.
    EII/INFj

    OVE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    ... She and her mother have said that he’s approval-seeking, which is why he does so much at church.
    That definitely sounds like a dynamic type with Je in ego. He also sounds like a serious type not a merry type. Especially this part where he seems to believe in 'objective' truths that other people around him should also uphold.

    Serious types:
    -Inclined to believe there are 'objective truths' – the truth is not always relative. Therefore, they believe that there are two types of actions/perspectives: those which are subjective (connected with personal preferences and motivations) and those which are objective (only one 'correct' or 'best' way of doing something). Whether something is correct or not is judged by comparing it with what they see as 'objectively correct'. In disagreement, they first attempt to make sure that the other person understands the concepts and terms 'correctly'.
    - They are inclined to offer (or impose) what they see as the 'best' or 'correct' way of doing something ('it should be done like this'). If they think something is done incorrectly, they ask WHO did it that way. When speaking of optimums, they are inclined to do so objectively (the 'absolute' optimum).
    - “It is difficult for me to differentiate between activity/work and fun; work is necessarily fun – without an element of entertainment, it would be impossible” “If something is being done the wrong way? Oy! IMO, there is only one proper way to 'hammer a nail'”
    These are gammas and deltas, but not betas like LSIs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal;765935[B
    ]That definitely sounds like a dynamic type with Je in ego.[/B] He also sounds like a serious type not a merry type. Especially this part where he seems to believe in 'objective' truths that other people around him should also uphold.
    I don't agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    That definitely sounds like a dynamic type with Je in ego. He also sounds like a serious type not a merry type. Especially this part where he seems to believe in 'objective' truths that other people around him should also uphold.
    How is this not-LSI?
    Johari/Nohari

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    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    How is this not-LSI?
    difference between Te and Ti, 'objective' truth of extraverted logic vs subjective personal truth of introverted logic http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Merry

    also from what I know of LSIs they aren't really approval seeking at all (ask dj for example if he seeks approval when he makes threads titled "fuck you guys") they tend to have this "I'm awesome!" attitude and are very individualistic, so what you're describing of this guy simply doesn't match up with LSI type so far

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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    difference between Te and Ti, 'objective' truth of extraverted logic vs subjective personal truth of introverted logic http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Merry
    That makes little sense to me. It sounds like they're saying Serious types believe in absolute truth, whereas Merry types have a more relativistic outlook.

    also from what I know of LSIs they aren't really approval seeking at all (ask dj for example if he seeks approval when he makes threads titled "fuck you guys") they tend to have this "I'm awesome!" attitude and are very individualistic, so what you're describing of this guy simply doesn't match up with LSI type so far
    I don't know one way or the other.
    Last edited by Cuddly McFluffles; 04-26-2011 at 08:08 AM.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

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    Gravedug! D:

    I mentioned considering for my father again. I don't pretend to understand , but what I do understand of , I do see in him. He is concerned with matters of efficiency, such as when he offered to advise Mom on how to pour her tea into a decanter faster (apparently she glared at him, since he dropped the matter and moved on). And, of course, there is the oft-quoted conflict of how he used to show me how I could do chores faster. He recently installed an air conditioner in my room (it was stupidly hot in there); he asked if I knew how to work it and, when I said no, proceeded to walk me through what was what and how to operate it. Some of it was a bit redundant (I don't need to know it's a "thermostat"; I was fine knowing it's the thing that controls how cold the air is). If he wants you to know about something, he can spend forever telling you about it. We've joked before that he is very much Owl from Winnie the Pooh. He is also very much the sort of man who will force his views for our benefit and be genuinely puzzled when we want nothing to do with him any more.

    I still don't know whether he would be creative or creative. I hesitate to call anyone who tends to get too little sleep ego; to me, that says they don't pay enough attention to their body's needs.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    YES

    LIE are more likely to ignore organizing their atmosphere of things than an LSE who is much more in the immediate moment than the LIE who will tend to get wrapped up in philosophizing. It's the difference between leaning more towards or . Being a sensory allows LSE to do things in front of them, their senses; LIE are great at Te and organization, believe me, but they need a little request sometimes.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 06-22-2012 at 03:49 AM.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    I read those descriptions. LSE.
    ---

    Indeed sleep deprivation sounds at first suspicious, however what is important is how he *himself* views it. Maybe he doesn't see it harmful, likely he doesn't need the "standard" hours of rest whcih you assume his body requires - it would make full sense, IME Si types are very in tune with their physical state and tell objectively what affects them negatively (and what doesn't) and how, by actual experimentation [1]. Indeed, the layman's literal interpretation of Si implies that Si types have some sort of inner computer that would make one identify in them all the health-related clichees, however that interpretation is bottom-up wrong, Si-Ego is merely a mode of cognition, which makes one prioritize the objective (mostly physical) cause/effect rules drawn from experience.

    A hundred Si Egos you will ask about physical matters, a hundred of different advices you will end-up with. You can trust them, they are talking from their personal, hands-on experience, not from the books, just nothing guarantees that what works for them will work for you.
    ---

    [1] - You, for example, talk only in principle, speculatively; it is pretty clear you are rather segregated from your actual physical experience, and therefore normally not even close to Si.
    Shock intuition, diamond logic.
     

    The16types.info Scientific Model

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